Justifyable War?

[Silenus]

War is act of stoning. War is an act of judgment against injustice (being mindful of the future). (Or as the aggressor, it is act of selfishness, but we are looking at war as the defense of innocents issue.) Likewise, stoning is an act of judgment against injustice (being mindful of the future). You divide this onto political issues where war is act of judgment of a nation against another nation while stoning is an act of moral or personal level; however, there is no line in the sand in Jesus day. The political world and religious world are the same line.

okay, I see. However, Romans 13 gives the government the right to enact judgement and justice. The real issue is whether Christians can or cannot take part in the Bablyon's around them? Daniel was given a strong God given role in the government of the actual bablyon and this didn't seem to contradict God's purpose one bit, and, to hit the other point . . .

Which image do you want to conform to an soldier of a kingdom of this world or as a disciple of Jesus in the Kingdom of God fully present. Which master is it?

Paul and Peter didn't seem to see these to roles as a contradiction and allowed many soldiers and government officals to remain in the tasks and also remain in the church. This is something that needs to be addressed and has not been. the zealots thing i don't see as being relevant. Jesus came to die, not to conquor. He'll do that later, so of course he didn't lead a rebellion. A rebellion would take him away from the cross . . .

 

[razzelflabben]

Then you have reaped your wages...but in 173 you questioning how to lead and I told you in 174...instead of receiving it and saying yes that is the way because I am already like that, You made this into a competition but you want to better than me...there you have it.

satisfied?

Wow, so far from what I intended, I wonder why my intent was not even included. Listen dear friend, I make no contest of serving the Lord. I do not think of myself as more or less Godly than any other, in fact, I see myself as very weak and little in the body of Christ. I know that I have so far left to God that the journey seems daunting at best. I see you on the other hand as a wonderful, passionate follower of Christ whom I respect and admire. But just because I ask questions doesn't mean I don't have answers, what it means is that I am constantly striving to know more, to go deeper and higher in my walk with God.

We were talking about the church, let me give you a bit of background. We are in the middle of an issue at church, it was extremely upsetting to me, though I did nothing "wrong" I feel guilty because many it is that grow angry and bitter at the truths of scripture we bring with us, just as in the story I related when I first posted here where a young christian grew so angry at the words of Christ that she tried to stab me. This is my life. I was so hurt that I called my girlfriend and asked her what was wrong with me that as my husband calls it, I am a lightening rod for people who are convicted by the words of God. Her reply is that my job is to be like Christ and Christ was a lightening rod as well.

Now, I don't see myself this way, I see myself as nothing. Painfully honest here, but I honestly see myself as nothing. Yet others, like my friend and everyone she knows who have met me, see not nothing but rather a passionate, God fearing, warrior who speaks God's truths no matter the cost.

So when I ask questions and when I speak answers, it is not in competition of anyone, but rather me trying to reconcile who I see myself as being and who others see me as being with who Christ not only sees me as being but who He wants me to be as well.

My bet is that you are more mature and bold than I, and that is something I shall alway admire.

 

[razzelflabben]

Ok, if I just throw my question out there, you're all gonna say it's time for me to start a different thread. So let me preface my question by saying that we are still talking about 'justifible war' and whether or not there IS such a thing. I have to confess that Disciple Dave stumped me last night and drove my rational for 'a time to kill' seemingly right into the ground. I have always felt that the OT is equally as equally infallible and the New, and frankly, until Disciple dave brought up Hebrews 7-8 last night, I'd never even have considered the Idea that the OT was actually 'flawed'. Yes, yes, I knew there were 2 different covenants, but PERHAPSE I am not as clear as I thought I was as to why. I've read my Bible...all of it, but I confess that I do not have the retention rate as some in theis forum so please be patient with me. I am realizing that aside from the Romans references( which I do not thing the pacifists have saticfactorally addressed) those who deny ANY doctrine of a 'just war' are with Disciple Dave in that they Believe the OT IS FLAWED based on Hebrews 7-8 saying that the Old covanant was flawed. The OT is critical for anyone wanting to defending 'just war'. This issue has to be cleared up before I can go any further with a 'just war' discussion because if we are both using different source material to make our claims then we are unequally burdened and will never see eye to eye, and I'm here to LEARN not just to argue. So my question is this in HEB 7-8 is Paul saying that old covanant was flawed or invalid because the people bound to it could not keep it's terms and couldn't be righteous as GOD called them to be because they were under the curse of sin? OR is the old covanant invalid because it not wholly what God intended? Were there statements of 'truth' in the OT, such as 'there is a time to kill' that are not valid for all times? What has changed, God or man?? I'm leaning toward MAN even as I write this, however my intent with THIS postis not to make a statement but t ask a question..or two.

The bible says that God is the same, but then again, as badly as my points have been interpreted maybe it best if I just keep quiet.

I am both a pacifist and not, let me explain. God does command us to turn the other cheek and I see many instances where this is the perfect solution to a problem, but I also understand the reasoning behind the children of Isreal being told to kill the women and children of "evil" religions, because they could and we can see throughout history how little it takes to poison our religious and spiritual health. God, the same God of the OT and NT showed no mercy to those who would lead the people astray, dare we be any different?

Well, I don't know if that answered your question at all or not, but I best be quiet before I offend someone else unintentionally.

 

[dvd_holc]

okay, I see. However, Romans 13 gives the government the right to enact judgement and justice. The real issue is whether Christians can or cannot take part in the Bablyon's around them? Daniel was given a strong God given role in the government of the actual bablyon and this didn't seem to contradict God's purpose one bit, and, to hit the other point . . .

Paul and Peter didn't seem to see these to roles as a contradiction and allowed many soldiers and government officals to remain in the tasks and also remain in the church. This is something that needs to be addressed and has not been. the zealots thing i don't see as being relevant. Jesus came to die, not to conquor. He'll do that later, so of course he didn't lead a rebellion. A rebellion would take him away from the cross . . .

First, Daniel lived during a state exile of Israel and anticipation of restoration. Daniel was longing for this moment. We live in a state of implementation of the established Kingdom of God. There is a difference.

Second, Jesus did conquer the world by establishing order against the effects of sin in our lives. The miracles that Jesus performed were enacting symbolically the overthrow of the power of sin in creation with the cross achievement. As Moses enacted judgment against the gods of Egypt, Jesus enacted judgment against the chaos and disharmony of sin and reestablished proper relationship there by leading Israel (the Kingdom) out of exile. Likewise, Jesus empowered Israel (the 12) to participate in implementation of the Kingdom (sending out the 12, seventy, and the great commission).

Third, Paul was specifically speaking of Roman officials (and an implication to all other established authorities) who are currently in power. He was not addressing Christians (those of the Kingdom) with the intent for Christians to gain power in Roman kingdom or any kingdom of the world. Instead, from the beginning of Romans, Paul was making a claim there is another Kingdom with Jesus Christ as the King and it does not look like another other kingdom with the chief characteristic that Christian are being conformed into being just like Jesus. He was teaching people how be ruled over by King Jesus and how He empowers our current life.

Also, Paul was dealing with history (created order and Israel), current affairs, and anticipation to the final redemption of the world. Paul has harsh words for Roman rule in Romans 1 and 2 to those who judge others and also any person who models an image of God that is not in harmony with Jesus. These people are deserving of wrath of God. Sometimes, God reveals His wrath presently (1:18, 1:27), works the achievements of sinners for His purposes (Pharaoh in 9:17, 8:28), and set a time for wrath (2:5, 2:8, 9:21-23). It is God's desire for repentance that He suffered during the sin and look past it for a set time (2:4, 2:7).

Now understand this, a soldier centers his or her life around the army of that kingdom. When any kingdom of this world goes to war it has established that wrath is needed. Those who participate in that war participate in judgment of wrath. Those who take up arms against his brother says, “I hold your sin accountable and will not allow you to repent because I will end your opportunity right now.”

And God said we all are deserving of wrath and do not deserve redemption, but He gave it anyway…so why would you model anything else? God freely give of mercy and grace in spite our sinfulness. But do you want judgment of wrath for your neighbor?

Likewise, Romans 14:10You, then, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or why do you treat your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all stand before God’s judgment seat. 12:1 Therefore, I urge you, brothers and sisters, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God—this is true worship. 2Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.

So now, implement the mercy of God in your kindness to all people in all circumstances.

 

[dvd_holc]

razzelflabben, I will send you a pm.

 

[Silenus]

Okay, now I'm seeing your arguments and I find them very tasty . . . However, I still need some convincing. Let me start with your typology . . .

First, Daniel lived during a state exile of Israel and anticipation of restoration. Daniel was longing for this moment. We live in a state of implementation of the established Kingdom of God. There is a difference.

It is true, but we also live in a state of exile as we wait for the establishment of Zion (Hebrews 12:18-24). This is what Peter states in His first epistle . . .

1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.
1Pe 2:10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.
1Pe 2:11 Beloved, I urge you as sojourners and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh, which wage war against your soul.
1Pe 2:12 Keep your conduct among the Gentiles honorable, so that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may see your good deeds and glorify God on the day of visitation.
1Pe 2:13 Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme,
1Pe 2:14 or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good.
1Pe 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people.
1Pe 2:16 Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God.
1Pe 2:17 Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor.

Again, in this verse where we are compared to exiles, we are told to honor the governors who are sent to punish those who do evil. This idea is one of the reasons I look to Daniel as an example of christians in government. Our particular nations are our particular babalyons and danial shows how a Christian can act in the government of Bablyon. According to Peter, we are exiles . . .

Some of these governors are the same ones who are throwing Christians in jail and dealing out persecution. I agree with most of your post, but it still doesn't answer the question of whether or not a Christian can take part in the government. It still needs to be dealt with why Paul or Peter do not command christians to stay out of the government, indeed, the Bible mentions soldiers and governors as part of the church (I'm pretty sure I'm not mistaken here). If Christians were not to be part of the givernment, i would think that Peter's, Paul's, or jesus' first command to them would be to leave the military or to abandon their post. But this is not what we see. And, in the case of an evil government, we see how danial defied its evil edicts and provided a witness.

Third, Paul was specifically speaking of Roman officials (and an implication to all other established authorities) who are currently in power. He was not addressing Christians (those of the Kingdom) with the intent for Christians to gain power in Roman kingdom or any kingdom of the world.

So, in response to this, as far as I can tell, Paul never excludes the possibility that some of these officals were Christians. Does this mean that when Constantine adopted Christianity he should have absolved his emporership?

Now understand this, a soldier centers his or her life around the army of that kingdom. When any kingdom of this world goes to war it has established that wrath is needed. Those who participate in that war participate in judgment of wrath. Those who take up arms against his brother says, “I hold your sin accountable and will not allow you to repent because I will end your opportunity right now.”

I agree, and the scriptures say that this is right for the government to enact this vengence. The question is, can Christians aid the government in its God given role? I think, because of the government officals and soldiers who were members of the church that were not rebuked, it seems that they were allowed to be part of the governments God ordained arm of vengence. And, if a soldier were a Christian in the Roman Army and were ordered to persecute christians, he would refuse and be persecuted with them, thus providing a witness. I think this primary gap needs an explination.

 

[Vanight]

Has anyone heard the explanation of "Turn the other cheek" to be a Jewish Idiom and this being mis-interpreted by most? Someone told me this and I had never heard that before.

Just signed up today. Thanks.

 

[Chie]

Has anyone heard the explanation of "Turn the other cheek" to be a Jewish Idiom and this being mis-interpreted by most? Someone told me this and I had never heard that before.

Just signed up today. Thanks.

Welcome Vanight to CF.
I can only say what my heart understands in this. We are not to render evil for evil, whether it is in words or deeds. If someone wrongs you, that is between them and God, but when you seek vengeance through your on actions or words , then it is between you them and God. This doesn't mean we are to turn the other check and fail to be moral when it comes to helping someone who is being beaten, raped, ect. Jesus isn't telling us not to defend ourselves and others.

 

[Giver]

Welcome Vanight to CF.
I can only say what my heart understands in this. We are not to render evil for evil, whether it is in words or deeds. If someone wrongs you, that is between them and God, but when you seek vengeance through your on actions or words , then it is between you them and God. This doesn't mean we are to turn the other check and fail to be moral when it comes to helping someone who is being beaten, raped, ect. Jesus isn't telling us not to defend ourselves and others.

Jesus went on to tell us what he meant: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

 

[Chie]

Jesus went on to tell us what he meant: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

The whole point is extending the grace of God to all men and love them, even our enemies. We are not to seek justice/vengeance through our own actions.

 

[dvd_holc]

Okay, now I'm seeing your arguments and I find them very tasty . . . However, I still need some convincing. Let me start with your typology . . .

It is true, but we also live in a state of exile as we wait for the establishment of Zion (Hebrews 12:18-24). This is what Peter states in His first epistle . . .

Hebrews 12:18-24 is comparing and contrasting the Kingdom of God during Moses’ Exodus and the Kingdom of God during Jesus’ Exodus. Look to Exodus 19…specifically, verses 12-13. Likewise, a mountain is a symbol for kingdom. During the exodus lead by Moses, Israel was not allowed to be planted on the (Mountain) Kingdom of God. There is a lot to be said…but I don’t want to bog this done…It was God who made a line in the sand and said you can’t come any further. With His words (commandments) He pushed Israel away. Since the sacrifice of Jesus, Jesus made way for humans to be planted on the Kingdom of God. It was on Pentecost God abolished those death markers in the sand further out to indwell in restored Israel in a more complete way. So there is no more fear of the Mountain of God, but there is much rejoicing that God has permanently planted His people on His Mountain.

Again, in this verse where we are compared to exiles, we are told to honor the governors who are sent to punish those who do evil. This idea is one of the reasons I look to Daniel as an example of christians in government. Our particular nations are our particular babalyons and danial shows how a Christian can act in the government of Bablyon. According to Peter, we are exiles . . .

Some of these governors are the same ones who are throwing Christians in jail and dealing out persecution. I agree with most of your post, but it still doesn't answer the question of whether or not a Christian can take part in the government. It still needs to be dealt with why Paul or Peter do not command christians to stay out of the government, indeed, the Bible mentions soldiers and governors as part of the church (I'm pretty sure I'm not mistaken here). If Christians were not to be part of the givernment, i would think that Peter's, Paul's, or jesus' first command to them would be to leave the military or to abandon their post. But this is not what we see. And, in the case of an evil government, we see how danial defied its evil edicts and provided a witness.

This verses (1 Pe 2:9-17) first say that we are a nation. In fact, it points out the promises that were promised in Exodus 19:5-6 were now fulfilled in us. Now we must fulfill the Kingdom covenant. The first time “sojourner” occurs in the NKJV is in Lev 25 (specifically, verse 23). Leviticus 25 is about Kingdom ethic dwelling in the Land that God gave them. Notice also that the Land is still God’s and they are sojourners. What is to be read in 1 Peter should be understood as the Kingdom ethic. Now, this is a little complex in that after the first exodus, the covenant blessing were seen as products from the Land, observe Deut. 27 and 28 and it enters the debate of the Luke 18:18-31. Now, Jesus turned those blessing from products of the Land to products in relationships of the Kingdom people, compare the blessings and woes in Luke 6:20-26 with the blessing and curses in Deut. 27 and 28. Now, on a side note the blessings and woes expressed in Luke 6:20-26 follow Deut. 8 and combined with Jesus’ appointment of Apostles (sent out ones as His restored Israel, the 12) indicates Jesus’ intent for Kingdom blessings not to be found in the Land but in the relationships as shepherds of the flock; whose harvest is in producing disciples (great commission and Mat. 9:37).
Likewise, what is the heart of an exile? There are many great laments of the people who are in exile captured throughout the bible. We have a whole book called Lamentations. The heart of an exile is the deep thirst for God. Read Psalm 42 and you will see the heart of an exile and why we live as exiles.
Now, the combined sojourner and exile has a parallel passage in 2 Sam. 15 (specifically verse 19). In this passage, Absalom stole the hearts of the people from the reigning King (David). Likewise in Peter, it is the flesh (kingdom of sin) trying to steal the hearts of the people to overthrow Jesus. But how did the King react? He did not seek out to condemn Absalom by placing judgment on Absalom and tearing the kingdom apart in civil war…instead, he entrusted his brides to run his affairs and did not cast spears at Absalom. There is of course much more that can be said…So also now, the principalities and powers are waging war against the Kingdom of God. The people that Peter is writing are currently dealing with the same issue. Likewise, what was David’s heart for Absalom? What did he command? “Protect the young man Absalom for my sake.” Now, God did send wrath (Absalom being found hanging in a tree, cursed by God) and David mourned greatly for the loss of his son. I am not blind to the actions of Joab…but look how Israel who anointed Absalom to reign over them reacted to the actions of David (that Peter wants to tie into current affairs).

2 Sam 19: 11King David sent this message to Zadok and Abiathar, the priests: “Ask the elders of Judah, ‘Why should you be the last to bring the king back to his palace, since what is being said throughout Israel has reached the king at his quarters? 12You are my relatives, my own flesh and blood. So why should you be the last to bring back the king?’ 13And say to Amasa, ‘Are you not my own flesh and blood? May God deal with me, be it ever so severely, if you are not the commander of my army for life in place of Joab.’ ”
14He won over the hearts of the men of Judah so that they were all of one accord. They sent word to the king, “Return, you and all your men.” 15Then the king returned and went as far as the Jordan.

Lastly, big issues…1) God is not seen as a god of lines in the sand. In that day, if you were a foreigner going into Rome, you would have been expected to pay homage to the Roman gods of that land that they might deal kindly with you. Likewise, if you went to another land (Far East, Egypt, or whatever), that would have been the same expected behavior. However, the God of Israel that was spoken of throughout the scriptures is a God of all the lands, who transcends all markers in the sand. This Kingdom of His is Heaven…Heaven was known in three parts 1) above the ground to the atmosphere 2) atmosphere to stars 3) the throne of God. Understand this…heaven is not a detached place in the distance but in Air intimate relationship with the lands and transcends all markers in the sand and reigns over the lands. The point of union between Heavenly realm and Earth was seen at the Temple (House) of God. Now, we are that Temple and place of union of Heaven and Earth in the Will of God.

So, in response to this, as far as I can tell, Paul never excludes the possibility that some of these officals were Christians. Does this mean that when Constantine adopted Christianity he should have absolved his emporership?

At no point in the bible, does the Creator God take people away from their identities. You can see this being dealt with in the stories of Jacob, Moses, the demon possed guy that Jesus cures in Luke 8:26-39. God created Constantine and gave him authority and power to glorify God and do God’s will. Constantine was awakened to the fullness of God in Christianity and wanted to become a disciple of Jesus. I am not an expert on Constantine, but this I will say…(and I am surprised from my observation no one brought this up)…God has given each one of talents and abilities that are to be utilized for His glory. In Luke 16:1-9, Jesus speaks to the disciples to use those talents to apart of the world to draw people to God. Jesus is comparing the lifestyles of the “children of the light” in this case the Essenes who detached themselves from the world and the problems of the world. The Essenes almost absolutely refused to do business with outsiders (there are a few extreme conditions that they did business with others). Jesus has a sharp critic for Essenes for finding their lights underneath the bowls.

Before your eyes swell… I will continue this below…

I agree, and the scriptures say that this is right for the government to enact this vengence. The question is, can Christians aid the government in its God given role? I think, because of the government officals and soldiers who were members of the church that were not rebuked, it seems that they were allowed to be part of the governments God ordained arm of vengence. And, if a soldier were a Christian in the Roman Army and were ordered to persecute christians, he would refuse and be persecuted with them, thus providing a witness. I think this primary gap needs an explination.

I write this that you might understand my view and points…All Christians are to be Christ followers and mature into His fullness and the knowledge (proper relationship, intelligential knowledge, and deeds) of Jesus to advance His Kingdom in which He established and we currently live in. Too many people have made the Kingdom establishment about the new ordinance of God at Jesus’ second coming. However, Jesus came to restore the Kingdom of God on Earth as it is in Heaven. Jesus has fulfilled Daniel’s prophecy that the Kingdom of God would be established and that reign would not be destroyed but go on forever. During the trail, Jesus claimed the enthronement in Daniel to the actions that were taking place in the death and resurrection. Jesus says that He has already gain authority over all of creation. In Acts, the exaltation of Jesus was not to get to 3rd heaven, but it was understood by all (even the pagan Romans) to be enthronement of Jesus as God to reign over all things. Paul said in Ephesians that God enthroned Jesus over all the created authorities and the church that He might fill all things. 1 John 2:8 that the darkness is passing away and the true light is already shining. But the flesh has come back as Absalom to steal Jesus’ reign, but we won’t allow it because we will have the heart of David in the fullness of Jesus that no wave of trickery from in their interest of deceitful scheming will move us, that we won’t be partakers of empty words.

My hearts desire is for all Christians to actual become mature of faith, become disciples in every aspect of life to what Jesus molded, and produce other Christians. That when we become Christians created in Jesus’ obedience to God and truth found in Him, we become displayers of mercy and grace in all things. Scripture says that God has a quarry of stones. Each stone is being worked with a tool to shape that stone for His house. Moses, Ruth, Isaiah, Elijah, Peter, Mary Mag., Paul, and everyone faithful to God is a stone. We are being shaped and identified for the correct placement in His House. Because we are rocks that have to shaped, there are pieces of each one of us that have to removed and not be pursued to look like Jesus. And it will hurt…but how will you advance the Kingdom? God will handle wrath. Will you handle being just like Jesus in every possible since? I put to you that a Christian who is not already in the military should not get into it because they have chosen to be like Jesus. Those who are in the military who become a Christian will have to make a chosen at some point of whether to mature or to become stagnate. Know more fully that the battle of the military and our battle is not a separate fights, but the same fight in which we choose to use the sword of the Kingdom through mercy and the call of Jesus rather than a sword of wrath to kill others.

 

[Giver]

The whole point is extending the grace of God to all men and love them, even our enemies. We are not to seek justice/vengeance through our own actions.

We are not to seek vengeance.(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is mine – I will pay them back, the Lord promises.”

 

[Chie]

We are not to seek vengeance.(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is mine – I will pay them back, the Lord promises.”

so true..........

 

[Piedpiper123]

We are not to seek vengeance.(Romans 12:18-21) “Do all you can to live at peace with everyone. Never try to get revenge; leave that, my friends, to God’s anger. As scripture says: ‘vengeance is mine – I will pay them back, the Lord promises.”

Is this for individuals or nations as well? Was it right to take vengence on Al Qaida?

 

[Chie]

Is this for individuals or nations as well? Was it right to take vengence on Al Qaida?

I think if each individual applied the scriptures to themselves it would take care of every nation.
Wished it was that easy.

 

[Giver]

Is this for individuals or nations as well? Was it right to take vengence on Al Qaida?

The World, because it doesn’t have God, needs an army to defend it. Christians are not part of the world, and have God to take care of them.

 

[ScottBot]

Jesus went on to tell us what he meant: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

Hmmm, if I were arguing against this edict of Jesus, I would then be arguing against God, making me an evil man. Since you continue to argue this point that I am making, you are resisting me, thereby violating the very point you are trying to make.

 

[Giver]

Hmmm, if I were arguing against this edict of Jesus, I would then be arguing against God, making me an evil man. Since you continue to argue this point that I am making, you are resisting me, thereby violating the very point you are trying to make.

Seeing that Paul and the other apostles were reported to discuss or disagree with others, then it must not fit into Jesus’ commandment. I really don’t want you to believe that I took this post of yours seriously, in fact you are bordering on disobeying forum’s rules.

 

[razzelflabben]

Is this for individuals or nations as well? Was it right to take vengence on Al Qaida?

What vengence on Al Qaida?

 

[razzelflabben]

Two things have been concerning me about this discussion.
1. This idea that in order to follow God I have to have a problem with His commands. In fact, my father has been known to say that if it is easy, it is not God's will. That is nonsense, it is much harder to be out of God's will than in it, no matter what that will is.

2. From the other side of the issue. I don't recall anyone defining what is a justifyable war. It seems that most here, feel that any war that the US gets into is okay, and maybe it is, but the OP was dealing with just wars and not whether or not it is okay for a believer to go to war.

Now personally, I think that the issue of the military for the believer has to be a matter of God's conviction of the individual being that the scriptures do not say not to be in the military, and in fact, I know of some very "heroic" americans who entered the military as conscientious objectors and never even carried a weapon. If they were outside God's will, why would He bless them in such a mighty way through their service? So what then of just wars. If the war is one that would remove evil from our midst so that the people would not be led astray, it is throughout the bible, from OT to NT a just war. God's heart is that the people would not be led astray, because He cares for His children. He knows that even a little evil can poison the whole, when will we learn this as well?