Justifyable War?

[Smileyill]

I appologize, I didn't know this was a catholic thread, I thought that just war doctrine was just thrown out for discussion and not an accepted doctrine for all. I missed the translation somewhere along the way, in fact, I vaguely recall someone else commenting about why we should be required to accept a catholic docrine but I didn't recall any reason and so I assumed that docrine was reserved for the catholics and that this being a chrstian phil. and ethics thread, would include all different christian just war doctrines. Boy did I blow it, sorry. Should I just leave the discussion since I am not catholic? There should be a warning somewhere. Can we add the word Catholic somewhere on this thread so we don't confuse anyone else? So are we then suppose to discuss the catholic doctrine of Just war? the biblical doctrine of just war? the personal doctrine of just war? or something else, I really am confused. I thought it was about the biblical doctrine of just war that we were discussing. Man I am so confused! My mind is spinning trying to figure out how I missed it so bad. No, I am not mocking anyone, I am really confused.

Actually many protestants accept this doctrine. Obviously, I do not, but it's the one referred to.

notice nothing there about our own selfish desires. It is ourselves giving into sin that seperates us from God. And, unfortunately, it is much easier to give into those evil desires when we fellowship with evil doers. But then again, many don't like to hear that message of God, and refuse all the scriptures resented persented that talk about the old man and his evil ways.

Now I'm confused, I thought you based your war doctrine on keeping us away from bad influences - which I liked, but here you refer to our own selfishness. We cannot escape that by anything except spiritual warfare. Ro 8 simply addresses the point I thought you had made.

Okay, so what books apply to us today then. We dismiss the ot because it is history, we disreguard Rev. because it is future, we disreguard the gospels because they deal with Jesus and as was already stated, He can do whatever He wants and that doesn't affect us at all. Now I don't know what else is left because the rest of the bible was about the early church and teachings of the church and that also is history, so what scriptures are valid for this discussion? What is left. It sounds to me like we can dismiss everything but the one passage you want to hold up as truth. But God tells me that all, I repeat ALL scripture is given, not just those you or I want to find an excuse to keep.

They all apply to us today in one way or another!!! Goodness, but some don't apply to this topic. The reasons then don't apply now because Christ fulfiled the law - as you correctly stated. I used Ro 12 to show why that specific action by Christ isn't for us to follow. By all means refute me.

In addition, you have not said anything about the Greek words used, when do we get to talk about that.But vengeance is what the Matt passage is talking about according to the greek, so that would be consistant with the idea of vengence and I see no problems at all, nothing about vengence is dealing with the military or war and so there is no scripture at all presented to support or invalidate war, only examples of how the military shows us a Godly life and not to use vengence. So what then do you base your case on?

Well then where do you stand? War or no war?

Well, unless I am told that I somehow belong on this thread that I didn't know was catholic, I will just be reading your posts, though I would love to continue the discussion, I don't wish to offend anyone, I really don't know how I could have known, but so be it. If I am okay to be here discussing the bible and not the doctrine of a specific religion, please let me know so that I can stay. If I can't discuss the bible, please forgive the intrusion and please make it clearer so that this infringement doesn't occur again. Thanks I do so love the word of God and the God who gave it to us!

 

[razzelflabben]

Actually many protestants accept this doctrine. Obviously, I do not, but it's the one referred to.



Now I'm confused, I thought you based your war doctrine on keeping us away from bad influences - which I liked, but here you refer to our own selfishness. We cannot escape that by anything except spiritual warfare. Ro 8 simply addresses the point I thought you had made.

What I am saying is that we are responsible for ourselves. God is clear on that, but it is "harder" to remain Godly when we allow evil. Take an alcoholic for example. It is much harder for him to not drink if he doesn't hang around with other alcoholics. Same is true for our spiritual lives, we are responsible for taking that drink as it were, but it is much easier to do if we aren't hanging around with alcoholics.

They all apply to us today in one way or another!!! Goodness, but some don't apply to this topic. The reasons then don't apply now because Christ fulfiled the law - as you correctly stated. I used Ro 12 to show why that specific action by Christ isn't for us to follow. By all means refute me.

What I am saying is that the entire bible paints a complete picture of a God that is the same yesterday, today and forever and should be used accordingly. We can't dismiss the actions of Christ when His word tells us to "imitate" Him.

Well then where do you stand? War or no war?

Personally or biblically? Personally, I couldn't fight in a war, so how could I ask anyone else to do that for me. That doesn't mean that I think all wars are wrong, but rather that I can't ask someone else to do what I am unwilling to do.

Biblically, I see no grounds for fighting in any general war to be evil or sinful. Therefore war is not by nature evil. There are some wars more "just" than others, but that is not to say that a non war is sinful or evil. Society lives by different laws that God.

 

[Smileyill]

What I am saying is that we are responsible for ourselves. God is clear on that, but it is "harder" to remain Godly when we allow evil. Take an alcoholic for example. It is much harder for him to not drink if he doesn't hang around with other alcoholics. Same is true for our spiritual lives, we are responsible for taking that drink as it were, but it is much easier to do if we aren't hanging around with alcoholics.

Then how does this relate to war?

What I am saying is that the entire bible paints a complete picture of a God that is the same yesterday, today and forever and should be used accordingly. We can't dismiss the actions of Christ when His word tells us to "imitate" Him.

True it reads that way, but he outlined exceptions - revenge is one of those, along with paying the debt for sins, claiming deity, and judging people in the last judgment, among others.

Personally or biblically? Personally, I couldn't fight in a war, so how could I ask anyone else to do that for me. That doesn't mean that I think all wars are wrong, but rather that I can't ask someone else to do what I am unwilling to do.

Biblically, I see no grounds for fighting in any general war to be evil or sinful. Therefore war is not by nature evil. There are some wars more "just" than others, but that is not to say that a non war is sinful or evil. Society lives by different laws that God.

You don't see why killing is generally sinful and evil? Well, we're forbidden from murder, so to kill one must have a reason for it not being murder, at least Biblically.

The only reason I've ever really seen is to defend the helpless. Pr. 31, but it speaks to verbal defense, not physical. Then there's the command to take care of orphans and widows Ja 1:27. But again that doesn't imply physical warfare.

I feel like I'm debating with myself, of course to a large extent I am; because I haven't truely decided myself. The practical problems with no war are immense - Hitler, but spritually it doesn't matter if anybody lives or dies physcially. We all will go to heaven or hell and I trust that God will give everybody the opportunity to go to heaven. Which makes me lean against war.

 

[razzelflabben]

I have been trying to think of a better/clearer way to say what I think, so here it is. The idea of a just war is a church idea, not an actual biblical command. therefore, there is no one or two scriptures that define it for us. Therefore, in order to clearly understand what God wants us to know, we must look at the entire bible and paint a picture that does not remove portions of understanding. That said, it seems to me that biblically war falls into one of three categories.
1. just war- this war is one that is a cleansing war. An example might be if Islam came into the US and tried to set up a government that made Islam the only religion. A just war is mandated by God and He is the one who wins it though He might use us people to do so.
2. unjust war- this war is one based on vengence. It is an "evil" war. It is not for a specific purpose other than to exercise revenge.
then you have 3. a war that simply is a war- it is neither just or unjust, it is simply a war. Neither evil or sinful in nature or concept.

I hope that is clearer.

 

[SpiritDriven]

We represent him who considers no war to be just or holy......yet the nature of the beast is to dominate the others.

Peace

 

[razzelflabben]

Then how does this relate to war?

We were talking about Just WAr being a cleansing war. One in which we remove the sinner or unbeliever from our midst. Some might look at this as an excuse to not be responsible for their own behavior. I was claifying that cleansing war is not about passing the blame to others but rather an aid in remaining sinless. Just as an alcoholic is responsible for their own behavior but might need to remove himself from friends who are alcoholic in order to remain sober. It was more of a clarification.

True it reads that way, but he outlined exceptions - revenge is one of those, along with paying the debt for sins, claiming deity, and judging people in the last judgment, among others.

Right, but without the entire bible to look at, we only get a partial picture. Consider this, I take a picture of my children (I can't paint or I would do that) but I leave out some of my children, do you then know how many children I have and approximate ages based on the picture? Of course not. Church concepts are much the same way. The often start by someone who reads a verse and it speaks to them and so they want to spead that to the world. But because it is a concept and not a command, it is an incomplete picture if left for only the passage that spoke to them. War is this instance, the bible does not say, war is good, war is bad, war is evil, war is sinful, war is Godly,etc. In fact, the bible says very little about war itself being anything but war. So in order to make a doctrine about war, we need the whole picture. You need a photo of all my children as it were in order to have a clear understanding of how many children and approximate ages thereof. We need a clear picture of the entire bible to form a clear picture of what God intends.

You don't see why killing is generally sinful and evil? Well, we're forbidden from murder, so to kill one must have a reason for it not being murder, at least Biblically.

Seeing why is the very reason I personally could not go to war, but then again, I personally could not have done as God commanded in the OT to kill women and children either. Yet God commanded it. The point is this, some killing is forbidden in the bible. However, war is not. And unfortunately in a war, people die. Consider this, a few years ago, my nephew was killed in an auto accident, many years ago, his grandfather was in an accident in which the grandfathers best friend was killed. Both instances involved a killing, so who then sinned? The command to not kill, has restrictions of understanding placed upon it. At least from our command of lang. He fell off the roof and was killed does not imply anyone sinned, yet he was killed. My nephew was struck by another auto and killed, but that doesn't mean that the other driver was sinning, it just means that it happened. Not long ago, a child not far from us, ran in front of a car and was killed, was the driver sinning when they killed the child? War carries with it death, but that is not the same thing as murder.

The only reason I've ever really seen is to defend the helpless. Pr. 31, but it speaks to verbal defense, not physical. Then there's the command to take care of orphans and widows Ja 1:27. But again that doesn't imply physical warfare.

see above and then come back to this if necessary. Some wars are for the purpose of defending the defenseless.

I feel like I'm debating with myself, of course to a large extent I am. Because I haven't truely decided myself. The practical problems with no war are immense - Hitler, but spritually it doesn't matter if anybody lives or dies physcially. We all will go to heaven or hell and I trust that God will give everybody the opportunity to go to heaven. Which makes me lean against war.

This is hitting the nail on the head though you may not realize it. A Just War as such, is for the purpose of a people remaining Godly so that thier eternity might be with God.