Justifyable War?

[Silenus]

Do you understand? When you turn the cheek, you end the spiral of violence. When you feed those who harm you, you call them into a deeper fellowship with you. When a thief takes your life, you do not add violence to the world, but you sacrificially love the thief. You who say the greatest commandment is love God and love others as yourself...do you put love God and harm others in your deeds? Does love your enemy mean you kill your enemy? Why do you place yourself as a judge to execute judgment? Do you want God to execute judgment against you for your sins for all sin is worth of death, but which do you depend on wrath or mercy? Do you wake with a drive to say I would love God to kill me or beat me? Or do you wake with a drive to say I would love God to show me mercy? All sin is worth of death, but as Christians we are dependant on grace. SO DISPLAY GRACE ALWAYS!

I had a friend who is for non-violence, and he used to say, if they kill us all, then we all get to go to heaven and the world ends sooner. I do like your point about ending the cycle of violence. But Romans does seem to give the government the right to execute some of God’s vengeance and the scriptures seem to indicate that Christians can be the governmental agent of that justice. So how does that work? Also, I have no problem turning my own cheek, but what about a guy smacking the cheek of three people next to me and I can stop it. What does it say about my commitment to ending suffering if I don’t.


For those who think Christians can serve in the military, how would you characterize the principles of a just war? I agree, the gulf war isn’t one. Any examples of one that is?

 

[dvd_holc]

Interesting your questions, did you intend for me to answer them personally?

Interesting because I just chatted with a dear friend, who spoke of not knowing anyone who was more passionate, stronger in faith and resolve, Christ like than me. I laughed, because I know how far I have to go, we can always and forever go deeper and higher, but when you are too passionate and full of grace for the church to accept, It's a hard row to hoe and a painfully honest friend is an absolute God send.

Then you have reaped your wages...but in 173 you questioning how to lead and I told you in 174...instead of receiving it and saying yes that is the way because I am already like that, You made this into a competition but you want to better than me...there you have it.

satisfied?

 

[ScottBot]

I had a friend who is for non-violence, and he used to say, if they kill us all, then we all get to go to heaven and the world ends sooner. I do like your point about ending the cycle of violence. But Romans does seem to give the government the right to execute some of God’s vengeance and the scriptures seem to indicate that Christians can be the governmental agent of that justice. So how does that work? Also, I have no problem turning my own cheek, but what about a guy smacking the cheek of three people next to me and I can stop it. What does it say about my commitment to ending suffering if I don’t.


For those who think Christians can serve in the military, how would you characterize the principles of a just war? I agree, the gulf war isn’t one. Any examples of one that is?

In your opinion, it isn't one. But it is the appointed civil authority that gets to make the call, not each individual citizen.

Principles of a Just War.

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

 

[Silenus]

Principles of a Just War.

• the damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
• all other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
• there must be serious prospects of success;
• the use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

so basically, war is justified when it is self-defense in response to serious aggression. Now, here's a question I'm curious about, since you bite on this one . . . do you think assiassination is a viable option once just war has been engaged?

I've always been curious abotu this one.

 

[ScottBot]

so basically, war is justified when it is self-defense in response to serious aggression. Now, here's a question I'm curious about, since you bite on this one . . . do you think assiassination is a viable option once just war has been engaged?

I've always been curious abotu this one.

If assassinating the leader of a hostile enemy will bring about a quicker resolution to conflict, save lives, and avoid excessive collateral damage, yes, I think so.

 

[dvd_holc]

I had a friend who is for non-violence, and he used to say, if they kill us all, then we all get to go to heaven and the world ends sooner. I do like your point about ending the cycle of violence. But Romans does seem to give the government the right to execute some of God’s vengeance and the scriptures seem to indicate that Christians can be the governmental agent of that justice. So how does that work? Also, I have no problem turning my own cheek, but what about a guy smacking the cheek of three people next to me and I can stop it. What does it say about my commitment to ending suffering if I don’t.


For those who think Christians can serve in the military, how would you characterize the principles of a just war? I agree, the gulf war isn’t one. Any examples of one that is?

I argue a different spirit. I speak of the cross to which we as disciple of Jesus are called to carry. It is one of sacrificial love for all others. Romans 13 does say that the authorities in power are appointed by good for the purpose of good and to execute judgment upon evil. Paul does not argue in Romans for Christian to join that authority. Right after that, Paul says that love does no harm and give to all their due. Now, I will add 1 Corith. 3 where everything we do will be building upon the foundation (of the Kingdom) with two types of materials. However, the gospels and every epistle are teaching the kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God is about righteous, proper relationships (peace), and joy the Holy Spirit. This Spiritual Kingdom crosses the lines of all kingdoms, but it should by that everything that is done by Christian is a reflection of mercy, grace, and love that we might build up all people. Do you think that God is able to physical stop the guy who is smacking 49 people from doing it? He does have the power, but God has forbearance, long suffering, and goodness to lead people to repentance. Do you mold God’s forbearance, long suffering, and goodness by demanding wrath for the before the 50th hit? God has set up the time for judgment of the world and given you a chance for a Jubilee right now…but do you want it for yourself only? Do you want it for those who are just convenient to you? Do you want God to give you peace, honor, and everlasting life than you display everlasting life now. God has choosen this world to continue to suffer…because in the suffering we are joined together and closer to God. Suffering is symbolized as being in a desert, and notice...

Duet. 8: 1 Be careful to follow every command I am giving you today, so that you may live and increase and may enter and possess the land that the Lord promised on oath to your forefathers. 2 Remember how the Lord your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. 3 He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your fathers had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that comes from the mouth of the Lord. 4 Your clothes did not wear out and your feet did not swell during these forty years. 5 Know then in your heart that as a man disciplines his son, so the Lord your God disciplines you. 6 Observe the commands of the Lord your God, walking in his ways and revering him.

7 For the Lord your God is bringing you into a good land--a land with streams and pools of water, with springs flowing in the valleys and hills; 8 a land with wheat and barley, vines and fig trees, pomegranates, olive oil and honey; 9 a land where bread will not be scarce and you will lack nothing; a land where the rocks are iron and you can dig copper out of the hills. 10 When you have eaten and are satisfied, praise the Lord your God for the good land he has given you. 11 Be careful that you do not forget the Lord your God, failing to observe his commands, his laws and his decrees that I am giving you this day. 12 Otherwise, when you eat and are satisfied, when you build fine houses and settle down, 13 and when your herds and flocks grow large and your silver and gold increase and all you have is multiplied, 14 then your heart will become proud and you will forget the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 15 He led you through the vast and dreadful desert, that thirsty and waterless land, with its venomous snakes and scorpions. He brought you water out of hard rock. 16 He gave you manna to eat in the desert, something your fathers had never known, to humble and to test you so that in the end it might go well with you. 17 You may say to yourself, "My power and the strength of my hands have produced this wealth for me." 18 But remember the Lord your God, for it is he who gives you the ability to produce wealth, and so confirms his covenant, which he swore to your forefathers, as it is today.

19 If you ever forget the Lord your God and follow other gods and worship and bow down to them, I testify against you today that you will surely be destroyed. 20 Like the nations the Lord destroyed before you, so you will be destroyed for not obeying the Lord your God.

 

[Giver]

Giver says


Well, I’d say your use of John is more isogesis than exegesis. He says that we are not to be taken out of the world, and we shall not. We are to have dealings with the world but not be identified with the world but with Christ. This verse doesn’t answer the question of what not being identified with the world means. Does being in the military mean that I now belong to the world? Or being a civil servant or senator mean I have identified myself with the world and not with Christ? This is a vulnerable interpretation again, considering Christ or His apostles didn’t call any out of their governmental roles or military ones. They obviously didn’t seem to think that being in the military was identification with the world. It seems one can be in the world, but not of it, in the role of a civil authority or a military man just as one can be in the world but not of it in any other profession. The second verse, to be honest, I don’t even see how it relates to the discussion. What is the argument you are forwarding with verse two?



Well, I’m nothing to question God, but I have no problem questioning anyone on this forum and part of that questioning involves the interpretation of scriptures. Is there a right one? Yes. Is one person right and the other wrong? Yes. Is it guaranteed it is you? Let’s find out, is what I say. If I am wrong, I’ll find out because God will make it plain either now or at judgment. But, I say we keep the papal proclamations to a minimum. Sorry, if I am being overly brutal here, feel free to let me know. I’ll apologize. As for obeying the last order first, Jesus, in Matt 5, also said he came not to overthrow the law but to fulfill it. By Jesus’ own words, the Old testament has value for interpretation of the NT, just as NT helps us understand the OT.

Now how many ways can someone interpret the following scripture?
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

It seem Jesus has told us what to do, but when people don’t have the faith to follow his Word they look for all kinds of exceptions. Well go ahead, but ask yourselves what do you really think offer the wicked man no resistance means? If you can’t accept what the word say then why don’t you ask Jesus?

 

[ScottBot]

Now how many ways can someone interpret the following scripture?
(Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

It seem Jesus has told us what to do, but when people don’t have the faith to follow his Word they look for all kinds of exceptions. Well go ahead, but ask yourselves what do you really think offer the wicked man no resistance means? If you can’t accept what the word say then why don’t you ask Jesus?

Listen Giver, if you want to base your entire faith around one passage of Scripture, knock yourself out. I prefer to take all 73 books in context, in conjunction with Apostolic Tradition as the basis for my faith.

If Jesus was advocating for complete and total pacificism, He would have to Peter to get rid of his sword, not just put it away in the Garden. He would not have told people that there would be a time to sell your shirt to by a sword. He would have told the Centurion to get out of the army, but rather told him his faith was great. John the Baptist would have told the soldiers to get out of the army, rather than to execute their duties honorably. Jesus would not have told people that is okay during persecution to run and hide, but he did. (running and hiding is a form of resistance)

 

[Gwenyfur]

Exactly Amor !!!!

 

[Giver]

Listen Giver, if you want to base your entire faith around one passage of Scripture, knock yourself out. I prefer to take all 73 books in context, in conjunction with Apostolic Tradition as the basis for my faith.

If Jesus was advocating for complete and total pacificism, He would have to Peter to get rid of his sword, not just put it away in the Garden. He would not have told people that there would be a time to sell your shirt to by a sword. He would have told the Centurion to get out of the army, but rather told him his faith was great. John the Baptist would have told the soldiers to get out of the army, rather than to execute their duties honorably. Jesus would not have told people that is okay during persecution to run and hide, but he did. (running and hiding is a form of resistance)

So Jesus was just rambling when he said: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” When you meet him be sure to tell him that.

Can’t you see, because you can’t answer his words you are you are just trying to find any excess to make yourself be right.

 

[ScottBot]

So Jesus was just rambling when he said: (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.” When you meet him be sure to tell him that.

Can’t you see, because you can’t answer his words you are you are just trying to find any excess to make yourself be right.

Can't you see, the bible is made up of 73 books that contain a whole lot more contextual information that this one sentence. I don't build my faith around one isolated passage, but like I'vealready said, if you want to, I am not your judge.

 

[Giver]

Can't you see, the bible is made up of 73 books that contain a whole lot more contextual information that this one sentence. I don't build my faith around one isolated passage, but like I'vealready said, if you want to, I am not your judge.

Jesus told Peter to put his sword away, for those who live by the sword die by the sword. If you want to discuss the rest of the Word of God I would be glad to to do that also, but first explain this passage why don’t you? (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

 

[Gwenyfur]

Jesus told Peter to put his sword away, for those who live by the sword die by the sword. If you want to discuss the rest of the Word of God I would be glad to to do that also, but first explain this passage why don’t you? (Matthew 5:39) “You have learnt how it was said: ‘Eye for eye and tooth for tooth.’ But I say this to you: offer the wicked man no resistance.”

 

[Giver]

I am quoting the living Word of God, and the only way it compares to beating a dead horse is that the people who are reading it seem to be blind.

 

[Gwenyfur]

And yet you're using Scripture as if it were a caveman's club to beat a brother over the head with...

thus...
beating a dead horse.

 

[Piedpiper123]

Do you understand? When you turn the cheek, you end the spiral of violence.

Sounds good but in the real world it does not work out like that. Turning the cheek to a violent man gets you hit again and perhaps worse leaves him free to be violent to others. Violent people must be stopped and with violence if necessary. It does not matter if we are talking about Hitler or a local robber they must be stopped in their tracks!

 

[Giver]

And yet you're using Scripture as if it were a caveman's club to beat a brother over the head with...

thus...
beating a dead horse.

Well Scripture calls the Word a two edge-sword, but if you want to call it a club OK.

(Hebrews 4:12) “The word of God is something alive and active: it cuts like any double-edged sword but more finely: it can slip through the place where the soul is divided from the spirit, or joints from the marrow; it can judge the secret emotions and thoughts. No created thing can hide from him; everything is uncovered and open to the eyes of the one to whom we must give account of ourselves.”

 

[Giver]

Sounds good but in the real world it does not work out like that. Turning the cheek to a violent man gets you hit again and perhaps worse leaves him free to be violent to others. Violent people must be stopped and with violence if necessary. It does not matter if we are talking about Hitler or a local robber they must be stopped in their tracks!

So you feel that is an excuse to disobey our Lord and God?

 

[Piedpiper123]

So you feel that is an excuse to disobey our Lord and God?

It is not disobedience. If I was not willing to stand up to a violent man then I would be a coward and part of the problem not part of the solution. The same principle applies internationally - we must stand up to wrong doers.

 

[DiscipleDave]

DiscipleDave said >>> i see, so you are a follower of Moses and his teachings. As to your question am i one who thinks that the old testement is not valid anymore? Answer Yes and No, Yes it is valid for testimony, History, and Truth, But NO, to that we have to obey any part of it, unless you are a Jew, who still lives and believes the OT. <<<

]AH we agree here. The Old TESTAMENT IS valid for testamony, history and TRUTH. SO.... if the OT is valid for truth, then why do you not accept the TRUTH of the concept laid out in Holy Scripture that 'there is a time to kill and a time to die'. Jesus constantly quoted the TRUTH in the OT, and apparently, for him, when he laid down his life for us that it was 'A TIME TO DIE' rather than a time to kill.

What the Old Testament teaches is History that is Truth, Did they kill and it was righteous ? Yes, Did they have incest relationships and it was righteous ? yes, did they have many wives and concubines and it also was righteous ? Yes. Do you then pick and choose which of the Old Testament Laws you will live by and which ones you will not live by? You are quite right in saying there is a time to kill and a time to die, that time to kill was the time before Christ when it was a righteous thing to hate you enemy and if necessary kill them, This was changed with the teachings of Christ

DiscipleDave said >>> Jesus Christ gave us a New Covenant, The New Testiment. The NT even teaches us that the Old is old, and that the New is better. It also teaches us, that if the Old did not have flaws, there would be no need for the New, but because there is a New, Better covenant under Christ, the Old is done away with, that we should not longer obey the old, but be subject to the teachings of our Master Jesus Christ.

I'm sorry brother, you are in error here. No scripture is flawed and all of it is valid for teaching and witness. Jesus did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. There is a substantial difference.

Brother you do error not knowing the Scriptures, For here is the Scriptures that states it is old and flawed.

Hebrew 8:6: But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. 7: For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8: For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Hebrews 8:13: In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 10:9: Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. ( Christ fulfilled the Laws of the Old Testament, they are complete, DONE WITH, OVER, We are now under a NEW covenant with Jesus Christ, we are not to obey the teachings of Moses, but we are to obey the teachings of Christ. )

DiscipleDave said >>> The Disciples of Jesus Christ had to correct many people in those days, because they accepted Christ yet tried to continue to live in the laws of Moses ( ie by being circumcised ) The Disciples said this was not so. <<<

REALLY? Peter disagreed. Remember?

No, i do not remember that, nor is the Truth, now i do remember He corrected them, because they took thought that they had to be circumsized.

there was a big dispute about that. They came to the agreement that Christians who were not brought up as Jews would not have to be circumsized. Apparently this issue wasn't as clear to the Palestinian Apostles (Jesus' original follwers)....why? because they believed that the OT was Truth.

Brother, you do error not knowing the Scriptures, Many people in those days after they believed on Christ, took thought that they must now live by the laws of Moses, now that they are forgiven of all their sins, from Jesus, they took thought now they should Once again attempt to obey the laws of moses, therefore they were teaching that if you got Saved, you should also be circumsized as does the laws of Moses teach, The Disciples corrected them on this matter, teaching them that we are no longer under the laws of Moses, but have a new covenant with Christ, that one did not have to obey the Old testament and be circumsized.

DiscipleDave asks >>> Are you then a follower of Christ and His teachings or a follower of Moses and his??? <<<

OF course, I am a follower of the GOD of moses, abraham, and the father of JESUS.

Am i the only one that noticed, he did not say he is a follower of Jesus? So then you say you are a follower of the God of Moses, Abraham, and the Father of JESUS, But i will ask again, Are you a follower of Jesus ( Note i did not ask if you were a follower of Moses, or Abraham, or even JESUS's Father ) ?

DiscipleDave asked >>> Should we obey the OLD TESTIMENT???? <<<

The quote from Ecclesiastes was not a command, it was a statement of obvious truth. The context is clear. Perhapse if you open your heart to the word of God a little, you will see this.

What i see, is what Jesus Himself has shown me, what i know is what He has taught me. Therefore if you will not hear me, you will not hear Him, For i know to whom i speak with and to whom is speaking with me.

I'm not saying that we have to obey the levitical laws, but we must not reject the TRUTH that is found in the context of the OT and to reject it as you seem to have done takes Jesus teachings out of a context that even his closest followers would have grown up with and accepted.

The Disciples corrected those who beleived we should obey any part of the Old Testament, they are OLD, We have a better testament with Christ, Only through Christ and His teachings is one to enter into Heaven, not through Moses and his teachings, but through Christs. Which then is your Master, Do you obey the New Testament and also obey the Old Testament as well, you then have two masters, and not one. Are the ten commandments in the Old testament, void? Heaven no, because they are yet again mentioned in the New Testament, therefore we are to obey them as well, not because they are written in the Old, but because they are written in the New.
i have told you the Truth concerning this matter, obey Christ and save your soul, we are no longer obligated to obey Moses and his teachings, but if you accepted Christ as your Savior and Lord and Master, Him then you need to obey.

Jn:14:23: Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Again you can't show me one verse from Jesus or His Disciples that state or even imply that we are to obey the old testament. All that we are to obey, Christ made sure was mentioned in the NEW TESTAMENT, this then obey and save your soul from Hell.

In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ
DiscipleDave
^i^