Justified by Faith BUT

[timothyu]

I give up. . .from what?

You made the claim so you tell me. If you don't know then perhaps whoever taught you missed the point.

 

[Clare73]

You made the claim so you tell me. If you don't know then perhaps whoever taught you missed the point.

"From what" did Paul claim in the orthodox Christianity of Romans 6:16, Romans 6:19?

 

[Guojing]

Yes, that is true. Moses was saved despite never hearing the gospel as Jesus preached it nor knowing that Jesus is God incarnate. I think that God saves according to grace rather than according to what a man knows.

Present salvation was not offered in the OT to anyone.

Moses, like the rest of the OT Saints, all still waiting in Abraham's bosom/Paradise, and waiting for the 2nd return of Christ to Israel, before they can get saved.

 

[timothyu]

From what did Paul claim?

You used the claim 'which leads to righteousness leading to holiness'. i asked you leads away from what

 

[Clare73]

You used the claim 'which leads to righteousness leading to holiness'. i asked you leads away from what

See post #102, above.

 

[sawdust]

How did one believe before faith?

Sorry I am confusing you. . .

By grace.

One hears the truth, believes it to be true then the word they heard becomes a part of them and produces faith. "My word in you" = faith. At the hearing of the Gospel, one enters salvation (positional sanctification). At the hearing of doctrine (milk and meat) one grows in their faith (experiential sanctification). Of course I'm assuming here that what is taught (both Gospel and doctrine) is in fact the truth. A lot of false stuff out there. It should also be noted the process is so quick as to be seen simultaneously.

Believing is what we do, faith is what Christ does. There is no merit in believing something for we were designed to do it just as we have legs designed to walk or hands to hold objects. We have been given a will and a mind with the capacity to choose what we believe or not believe.

And before you start with something like "believe and trust". If you believe something to be true you are trusting it. No-one looks outside and believes it is going to rain and not take their umbrella. (unless they're insane )

 

[sawdust]

Yes, quit putting our will ahead of the will of God. Confession merely shows our understanding of why that is wisdom, why selfish man including each of us, is the cause of all our woes.

huh? How do I put our will before God's when it is His will that said "repent and believe". Our will responds to His will either positively or negatively.

 

[timothyu]

See post #102, above.

And what is sin?

 

[timothyu]

huh? How do I put our will before God's when it is His will that said "repent and believe". Our will responds to His will either positively or negatively.

How did Eve put her will before His?

 

[Clare73]

And what is sin?

Same as it's always been--disobedience to God's commands (Romans 6:16, Romans 6:22).

 

[timothyu]

Same as it's always been--disobedience to God's commands

Right.. putting our will first. So it is simply knowing that our way bad, God's way good, and living accordingly

 

[friend of]

I asked for scripture that said we are to repent of our sin, not simply to repent. I have already said you can't believe unless you repent because to repent means to change your mind about what ever it is you believe at the present. It is what the word literally means. In the case of salvation, it is to change your mind about Christ and the Cross. When one turns to Christ they are repenting from their unbelief which, is what produces sin, to belief. You repent from unbelief to belief.

All of those scriptures are speaking about repenting from evil deeds. None of those scriptures I provided are talking about repenting from "unbelief" in Christ.

 

[friend of]

I have already said you can't believe unless you repent because to repent means to change your mind about what ever it is you believe at the present

Repentance doesn't stop at changing your mind once. It is a continuity.

 

[sawdust]

How did Eve put her will before His?

What has that got to do with anything I said? Do you want people to disobey God and not repent and believe? Or do you think God will do for you what He tells you to do?

 

[sawdust]

Repentance doesn't stop at changing your mind once. It is a continuity.

Yes, but you are not constantly changing your mind about Christ and the Cross, the message of "first importance" as Paul puts it. Your OP dealt with the point of salvation didn't it? At least, that is what I understood. Unless you think you keep getting saved over and over again? You are only made alive once never to die again.

1 Corinthians 15:3
For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

 

[sawdust]

All of those scriptures are speaking about repenting from evil deeds. None of those scriptures I provided are talking about repenting from "unbelief" in Christ.

There is no mention of evil deeds. They simply say repent. Some speak of who should repent ie sinners, some say what will happen if you repent ie. sins forgiven but ultimately they simply say change your mind (repent). If God convicts people of their error (sin), what do you think they are to change their minds about? Their sin or God?

 

[BBAS 64]

Repentance doesn't stop at changing your mind once. It is a continuity.

Amen!

The first of ninety-five.


Luther- "When our Lord and Master Jesus Christ said, ‘Repent,’ He willed the entire life of believers to be one of repentance."

 

[Clare73]

Right.. putting our will first. So it is simply knowing that our way bad, God's way good, and living accordingly

That is about the Christian life after salvation.
That is not how one is saved.

 

[timothyu]

That is not how one is saved.

One is saved by rejecting the traditional ways of man (and the adversary). Our ways go nowhere and have never solved anything. Our allegiance should go to God, not to the world man has made in our own image.

 

[BobRyan]

...but if you don't repent you're going to hell (works)

So many pastors and teachers and laity church members admit to the core doctrine of justification by faith "alone", but then immediately whip around and plug in "...but repentance is required or else you won't be justified by faith alone".

Is this not a contradiction? Why would we need to do anything if we are justified by Faith alone? If we need to do anything else, then we are not in fact justified by faith alone, but by Faith + repentance.

So then James 2??

Which is where we find "by faith alone" in scripture

James 2:
20 But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.