Justified by Faith BUT

sawdust

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I'm talking about repenting of sin.

You don't repent of sin, you confess sin. (1Jn.1:9) You repent of evil (unbelief). To repent means to change your thinking. This is why the first thing Jesus said when He began His ministry was to "repent and believe"

Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”

Repentance connects to belief, confession connects to forgiveness.
 
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sawdust

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Moses was saved by faith in Christ (the Promise), as are all.

Then why did you repeat what I said? I find your style confusing at times. You could have just hit the 'agree" button and it would have been obvious you weren't disagreeing with me. As it stands, I thought you were saying something different ie. that Moses didn't believe in the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
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Clare73

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You don't repent of sin, you confess sin. (1Jn.1:9) You repent of evil (unbelief). To repent means to change your thinking. This is why the first thing Jesus said when He began His ministry was to "repent and believe"
Mark 1:15
and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. Repent, and believe in the gospel.”
Repentance connects to belief, confession connects to forgiveness.
Actually, salvation (remission of sin) which is forgiveness (cancellation of debt) is the result of faith.
 
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sawdust

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Actually, salvation (remission of sin) which is forgiveness (canellation of debt) is the result of faith.

... and before faith what did one do Clare? Repent and beleive! You are off on another subject that is down the track.

Sometimes I think you get so fixated on certain words you miss the gist of what was said in the first place. :scratch:
 
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BNR32FAN

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...but if you don't repent you're going to hell (works)

So many pastors and teachers and laity church members admit to the core doctrine of justification by faith "alone", but then immediately whip around and plug in "...but repentance is required or else you won't be justified by faith alone".

Is this not a contradiction? Why would we need to do anything if we are justified by Faith alone? If we need to do anything else, then we are not in fact justified by faith alone, but by Faith + repentance.

Then there’s the issue of love as well. According to 1 Corinthians 13 faith without love is useless.
 
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friend of

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Scripture please.

Certainly. Scripture tells us to repent constantly:
  • Repent at my rebuke! Then I will pour out my thoughts to you, I will make known to you my teachings.
    Proverbs 1:23
  • In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. Luke 15:10
  • Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts of the Apostles 2:38
  • I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Luke 13:3
  • I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Luke 5:32
  • In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30
  • For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live! Ezekiel 18:32
  • I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. Luke 15:7
  • Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. Revelation 3:19
  • From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” Matthew 4:17
  • Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. Acts 3:19
 
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timothyu

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repent means to change your thinking. This is why the first thing Jesus said when He began His ministry was to "repent and believe"
Yes, quit putting our will ahead of the will of God. Confession merely shows our understanding of why that is wisdom, why selfish man including each of us, is the cause of all our woes.
 
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Clare73

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... and before faith what did one do Clare? Repent and beleive! You are off on another subject that is down the track.

Sometimes I think you get so fixated on certain words you miss the gist of what was said in the first place. :scratch:
How did one believe before faith?

Sorry I am confusing you. . .
 
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Clare73

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Yes, quit putting our will ahead of the will of God. Confession merely shows our understanding of why that is wisdom, why selfish man including each of us, is the cause of all our woes.
No. . .salvation is to believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin (salvation) and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," forensically declared righteous by a sentence of acquittal of guilt (justification).
 
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timothyu

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No. . .salvation is to believe in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of our sin (salvation) and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty," forensically declared righteous by a sentence of acquittal of guilt (justification).
That only shows belief in the Kingdom has come but does not address allegiance to it or why. This is where the Lord Lords come in.
 
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Clare73

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That only shows belief in the Kingdom has come but does not address allegiance to it or why. This is where the Lord Lords come in.
In orthodox Christianity, salvation is about
remittance of sin by faith,
justification by faith,
obedience in the Holy Spirit which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Romans 6:16,
Romans 6:19), for "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14),
which is being in the eternal, never-ending (Luke 1:33) Kingdom of God (Luke 11:20, and the 13 other ways of stating that same Kingdom in the NT).
 
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Xeno.of.athens

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I know he was saved. He could not be God's man (in the manner he was eg. penning scripture) unless he was spiritually alive and if he was alive, then he was saved. Afterall, it was spiritual death Christ died to save us from. :)
Yes, that is true. Moses was saved despite never hearing the gospel as Jesus preached it nor knowing that Jesus is God incarnate. I think that God saves according to grace rather than according to what a man knows.
 
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Guojing

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...but if you don't repent you're going to hell (works)

So many pastors and teachers and laity church members admit to the core doctrine of justification by faith "alone", but then immediately whip around and plug in "...but repentance is required or else you won't be justified by faith alone".

Is this not a contradiction? Why would we need to do anything if we are justified by Faith alone? If we need to do anything else, then we are not in fact justified by faith alone, but by Faith + repentance.

This is what some people call backloading vs front loading works

Front-Loading works into the Gospel would like something this:

“For you to be saved you have to be willing to give up your life first”

“You need to stop sinning and live holy, or else you cannot be saved”

“In order for you to be saved, you need to be baptized in water, keep the sacraments, do penance, and join our church to be saved.”

And usually this happens when Salvation and Discipleship are Combined together. For example, When a preacher says to a sinner:

“Before you can be saved, you have to be willing to follow Christ Jesus for the rest of your life.”

What that preacher just did is combine Salvation with Discipleship. And the two are different. Salvation is not discipleship. And Discipleship is not Salvation. Salvation is a one time event, where as Discipleship is a life long process.

Another example of combining Salvation and Discipleship together would be a preacher saying something like this:

“If you want to be saved, you have to be willing to forsake all, give up your life, even hate your own life and be willing to deny yourself and follow Christ. In order for you to be truly saved, you must do these things.”

This again is a prime example of mixing Salvation with Discipleship. Hence, what you have here is works based salvation. Where one is Front-Loading works into the Gospel. But Salvation is not of works, but it is only by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is the Gift of God. Not of Works, Lest any man should Boast. (Eph. 2:8-9).

Now those examples I just gave you deal with someone who, once again, is front-loading works into the Gospel. But what does it look like when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel?

Front-loading works into the Gospel is actually rather obvious. Since they are actually telling you up front that you must do those works in order to be saved. But when someone is back-loading works into the Gospel, it isn’t that clear, since it is more subtil. But here are a few examples of back-loading works into the Gospel:

“Well, while we are saved by grace through Faith without works. Still though, true saving faith Will produce good works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith in Christ, BUT true saving grace will change you, and you will bring forth fruit and good works, if you have been truly saved.”

“We are not preaching works based salvation, BUT we are preaching Salvation-Works.”

“We are saved by grace through faith that Works.”

“We are not saved by works, BUT true salvation and true faith will have works.”

“We are saved by grace through Faith, BUT true saving faith will have the good works. Good works will accompany saving faith.”

Now those are some examples of a person who is back-loading works into the Gospel.

Telling a sinner when they get saved, that they Will do good works. And that those good works are proof that they have been truly saved.
 
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timothyu

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Yes, that is true. Moses was saved despite never hearing the gospel as Jesus preached it nor knowing that Jesus is God incarnate.
Moses taught and understood what God said all along and what Jesus taught and represented... His will before our will. It is the same throughout when it came to salvation, be it from enemies here or surviving the original death sentence..
 
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sawdust

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Certainly. Scripture tells us to repent constantly:
  • Repent at my rebuke! Then I will pour out my thoughts to you, I will make known to you my teachings.
    Proverbs 1:23
  • In the same way, I tell you, there is rejoicing in the presence of the angels of God over one sinner who repents. Luke 15:10
  • Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.” Acts of the Apostles 2:38
  • I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Luke 13:3
  • I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance. Luke 5:32
  • In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. Acts 17:30
  • For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live! Ezekiel 18:32
  • I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent. Luke 15:7
  • Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent. Revelation 3:19
  • From that time on Jesus began to preach, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.” Matthew 4:17
  • Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord. Acts 3:19

I asked for scripture that said we are to repent of our sin, not simply to repent. I have already said you can't believe unless you repent because to repent means to change your mind about what ever it is you believe at the present. It is what the word literally means. In the case of salvation, it is to change your mind about Christ and the Cross. When one turns to Christ they are repenting from their unbelief which, is what produces sin, to belief. You repent from unbelief to belief.
 
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Clare73

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Yes, that is true. Moses was saved despite never hearing the gospel as Jesus preached it nor knowing that Jesus is God incarnate. I think that God saves according to grace rather than according to what a man knows.
And yet he believed in Christ when he believed in the Promise (Genesis 15:5--Seed; i.e., Jesus Christ, Galatians 3:16).
 
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