Justified by Faith BUT

BBAS 64

Contributor
Site Supporter
Aug 21, 2003
9,865
1,714
59
New England
✟512,371.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
So then James 2??

Which is where we find "by faith alone" in scripture

James 2:
20 But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
Good Day, Bob

Douglas Moo covers this in his commentary on James:

Snip" 4. The fourth reason for denying that James of Jerusalem could have written this letter involves the famous problem of the relationship between James and Paul, especially with respect to their teaching on justification. The letter insists that works are required for justification: "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (2:24). Paul, on the other hand, teaches that a person is justified by faith and not by "works of the law" (e.g., Rom. 3:28). The relationship of these two teachings is one of the biggest theological issues in the letter and, indeed, one of the most significant theological tensions within the NT. We will address the matter later in the Introduction (in the section on Theology) and in the commentary proper. For now, however, we should note that, while the two seem to be in direct contradiction when statements of each are taken on their own, a careful study of the vocabulary of each and of the respective contexts in which they are speaking mitigates the tension significantly. In fact, most scholars now recognize that, like ships passing in the night."

And again:

Snip "The most important, and controversial, contribution of James to NT theology comes in his teaching about the importance of works for justification (2:14-26). Indeed, many theologians mention James only because he seems to contradict the critical doctrine of "justification by faith alone" taught by Paul. But this is not fair to James. He has his own point to make; and it must be appreciated for what it is and not shunted aside in a wrongheaded or hasty insistence on theological integration. James condemns any form of Christianity that drifts into a sterile, actionless "orthodoxy." Faith, not what we do, is fundamental in establishing a relationship with God. But faith, James insists, must be given content. Genuine faith, he insists, always and inevitably produces evidence of its existence in a life of righteous living. Biblical faith cannot exist apart from acts of obedience to God."



We are indeed Justified by faith alone, but the Faith is never alone the works you see.... do you see?

Clement Of Rome notes:

Clement of Rome ( First Clement)

"And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. What, then, shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease from well-doing, and abandon charity? May the Master never allow that this should happen to us! but let us rather with diligence and zeal hasten to fulfil every good work. For the Maker and Lord of all things rejoiceth in his works. By his supreme power he founded the heavens, and by his incomprehensible understanding he ordered them. The earth he separated from the water that surrounded it, and fixed it on the firm foundation of his own will. The animals which inhabit therein he commanded to be by his ordinance. Having made beforehand the sea and the animals that are therein, he shut them in by his own power. Man, the most excellent of all animals, infinite in faculty, he moulded with his holy and faultless hands, in the impress of his likeness. For thus saith God: Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness. And God made man. Male and female made he them. When, therefore, he had finished all things, he praised and blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and multiply. Let us see, therefore, how all the just have been adorned with good works. Yea, the Lord himself rejoiced when he had adorned himself with his works. Having, therefore, this example, let us come in without shrinking to his will; let us work with all our strength the work of righteousness." (32-33)

In Him,

Bill
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,185
6,144
North Carolina
✟277,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
One is saved by rejecting the traditional ways of man (and the adversary). Our ways go nowhere and have never solved anything. Our allegiance should go to God, not to the world man has made in our own image.
Not according to the NT, where one is saved by faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty"--forensic declaration by God of acquittal of guilt (justification).
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: BobRyan
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,185
6,144
North Carolina
✟277,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
So then James 2??

Which is where we find "by faith alone" in scripture

James 2:
20 But are you willing to acknowledge, you foolish person, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was our father Abraham not justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called a friend of God. 24 You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
See post #30.
 
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,536
8,430
up there
✟307,082.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Not according to the NT, where one is saved by faith in and trust on the person and atoning sacrifice (blood, Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e., "not guilty"--forensic declaration by God of acquittal of guilt (justification).
His sacrifice brought the Kingdom to fruition and His resurrection opened the door previously close by death. This of course is for those found worthy in that they no longer put their will before the will of God, otherwise how could they fit in the Kingdom where the adversarial spirit does not exist.
 
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,185
6,144
North Carolina
✟277,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
Good Day, Bob
Douglas Moo covers this in his commentary on James:
Snip" 4. The fourth reason for denying that James of Jerusalem could have written this letter involves the famous problem of the relationship between James and Paul, especially with respect to their teaching on justification. The letter insists that works are required for justification: "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (2:24). Paul, on the other hand, teaches that a person is justified by faith and not by "works of the law" (e.g., Rom. 3:28). The relationship of these two teachings is one of the biggest theological issues in the letter and, indeed, one of the most significant theological tensions within the NT. We will address the matter later in the Introduction (in the section on Theology) and in the commentary proper. For now, however, we should note that, while the two seem to be in direct contradiction when statements of each are taken on their own, a careful study of the vocabulary of each and of the respective contexts in which they are speaking mitigates the tension significantly. In fact, most scholars now recognize that, like ships passing in the night."

And again:

Snip "The most important, and controversial, contribution of James to NT theology comes in his teaching about the importance of works for justification (2:14-26). Indeed, many theologians mention James only because he seems to contradict the critical doctrine of "justification by faith alone" taught by Paul. But this is not fair to James. He has his own point to make; and it must be appreciated for what it is and not shunted aside in a wrongheaded or hasty insistence on theological integration. James condemns any form of Christianity that drifts into a sterile, actionless "orthodoxy." Faith, not what we do, is fundamental in establishing a relationship with God. But faith, James insists, must be given content. Genuine faith, he insists, always and inevitably produces evidence of its existence in a life of righteous living. Biblical faith cannot exist apart from acts of obedience to God."



We are indeed Justified by faith alone, but the Faith is never alone the works you see.... do you see?

Clement Of Rome notes:

Clement of Rome ( First Clement)

"And we who through his will have been called in Christ Jesus are justified, not by ourselves, or through our wisdom or understanding or godliness, or the works that we have done in holiness of heart, but by faith, by which all men from the beginning have been justified by Almighty God, to whom be glory world without end. Amen. What, then, shall we do, brethren? Shall we cease from well-doing, and abandon charity? May the Master never allow that this should happen to us! but let us rather with diligence and zeal hasten to fulfil every good work. For the Maker and Lord of all things rejoiceth in his works. By his supreme power he founded the heavens, and by his incomprehensible understanding he ordered them. The earth he separated from the water that surrounded it, and fixed it on the firm foundation of his own will. The animals which inhabit therein he commanded to be by his ordinance. Having made beforehand the sea and the animals that are therein, he shut them in by his own power. Man, the most excellent of all animals, infinite in faculty, he moulded with his holy and faultless hands, in the impress of his likeness. For thus saith God: Let us make man in our own image, and after our own likeness. And God made man. Male and female made he them. When, therefore, he had finished all things, he praised and blessed them, and said, Be fruitful, and multiply. Let us see, therefore, how all the just have been adorned with good works. Yea, the Lord himself rejoiced when he had adorned himself with his works. Having, therefore, this example, let us come in without shrinking to his will; let us work with all our strength the work of righteousness." (32-33)

In Him,

Bill
See post #30.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Clare73

Blood-bought
Jun 12, 2012
25,185
6,144
North Carolina
✟277,749.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
His sacrifice brought the Kingdom to fruition and His resurrection opened the door previously close by death. This of course is for those found worthy in that they no longer put their will before the will of God, otherwise how could they fit in the Kingdom where the adversarial spirit does not exist.
Non-responsive to Romans 3:25.
 
Upvote 0

BobRyan

Junior Member
Angels Team
Site Supporter
Nov 21, 2008
51,346
10,603
Georgia
✟911,707.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Good Day, Bob

Douglas Moo covers this in his commentary on James:

Snip" 4. The fourth reason for denying that James of Jerusalem could have written this letter involves the famous problem of the relationship between James and Paul, especially with respect to their teaching on justification. The letter insists that works are required for justification: "a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone" (2:24). Paul, on the other hand, teaches that a person is justified by faith and not by "works of the law" (e.g., Rom. 3:28). The relationship of these two teachings is one of the biggest theological issues in the letter and, indeed, one of the most significant theological tensions within the NT. ..
Hi Bill,

Thank you for your reply.

1. I am inclined to hold firmly to the scripture in 2 Tim 3:16 stating that "ALL scripture is inspired by God and to be used for doctrine..." as applicable to all scripture - all 66 books. That is the most natural reading of the text.

2. I find complete agreement between Paul's context for the term "justified" in Rom 2:13 as we find James using that term in James 2:24

Rom 2:13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus..

James 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way?

Those two statements both address the topic of Gospel justification and they do so in the same context for works. It is very difficult to read those two and argue that James is flatly contradicting Paul.

That is Gospel Justification in the legal corporate evidence based sense of it as Christ points out that same thing in Matt 7 where it is not everyone who SAYS "Lord Lord" that is saved - but rather "He who DOES the will of God" --- which is a reference to obedience to God's Word vs rebellion against God.

=====================


Well then how about Paul? Is Paul contradicting Paul ? Does Rom 2:13-16 contradict Rom 5:1-2??
Certainly not!

Rom 5:1 makes it clear that the context is justification past -- "Having BEEN justified by faith we HAVE peace with God"
Rom 2"13 makes it clear that the context is justification future - "doers of the Law WILL BE justified"

James uses the same "future" context for the term in James 2 as Paul does in Romans 2:13 where evidence of works (fruits of the person as Christ points out in Matt 7) testifies to the already born-again changed heart of the believer. The person is "justified" in view of the court of observers.

But in Rom 5:1 we have past justification - where the lost sinner is transferred from darkness to light - and has no "works" to accompany his claim that he is a lost sinner and is in need of the gospel. We are justified by faith. But once inside that system - as a born again believer - then the "actions" that result testify to the new-birth , the "good tree" of Matt 7 always has fruit according to Christ.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

GDL

Well-Known Member
Jul 25, 2020
4,247
1,255
SE
✟105,387.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The only thing or person that can save a person whether or not any of you are willing to except this fact is obedience to Jesus the Messiah (Visible image of God),
Nice to see that someone gets it.

 
Upvote 0

WhoIsLikeGod?

Active Member
May 29, 2018
248
57
41
North Central Mass
✟46,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
...but if you don't repent you're going to hell (works)

So many pastors and teachers and laity church members admit to the core doctrine of justification by faith "alone", but then immediately whip around and plug in "...but repentance is required or else you won't be justified by faith alone".

Is this not a contradiction? Why would we need to do anything if we are justified by Faith alone? If we need to do anything else, then we are not in fact justified by faith alone, but by Faith + repentance.
We are not justified by faith; we are SAVED by GRACE through faith (Eph. 2:8). We are JUSTIFIED by WORKS (Jas. 2:24). This is the difference between salvation and justification: salvation means deliverance from destruction; justification means an (outward) exhibition of one's righteousness.
 
  • Like
Reactions: timothyu
Upvote 0

friend of

A private in Gods army
Site Supporter
Dec 28, 2016
5,559
3,921
provincial
✟762,313.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Upvote 0

timothyu

Well-Known Member
Dec 31, 2018
22,536
8,430
up there
✟307,082.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
We go round saying I'm justified of this, I'm saved, I'm special. Yet Jesus' message was not one of me me me like the religion now proclaims but that God was returning to set our spoiled behinds straight whether we liked it or not. Those in agreement that this should happen as we are useless at controlling ourselves, get to reap the benefits while those who don't and want to continue to run the show, have had their only reward while here.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

WhoIsLikeGod?

Active Member
May 29, 2018
248
57
41
North Central Mass
✟46,935.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,433
4,605
Hudson
✟284,422.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
...but if you don't repent you're going to hell (works)

So many pastors and teachers and laity church members admit to the core doctrine of justification by faith "alone", but then immediately whip around and plug in "...but repentance is required or else you won't be justified by faith alone".

Is this not a contradiction? Why would we need to do anything if we are justified by Faith alone? If we need to do anything else, then we are not in fact justified by faith alone, but by Faith + repentance.

The Bible does not specifically state that we are justified by faith alone, but rather it specifically states that we are not justified by faith alone (James 2:21-24). Luther’s doctrine of justification by faith alone is based on what Paul said in Romans 3:27, where we are justified by faith apart from works of the law, so we are justified by faith alone insofar as there are no works that we can do to earn our salvation, but faith is never alone insofar as Romans 3:31 says that our faith does not abolish God’s law, but rather our faith upholds it, so the same faith by which we are justified is also expressed by living in obedience to God’s law. This is also why Luther said that an idle faith is not a justifying faith and why Paul said in Romans 2:13 that only doers of the law will be justified.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums