Justification?

[Butterball1]

UNconditional is not my word, see your posts above. I've never used it.
If you're referring to Paul and "original sin" in Ro 5:18, your issue is with Paul, not me.

Ro 5:18 - "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men. . ."

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). And where there is no law, there is no sin. (Ro 5:13)
Yet death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin (by breaking any law) (Ro 5:14),
for there was no law to break.
Therefore, since death is the penalty for sin, those between Adam and Moses were involved in the sin of someone else; viz., Adam.
"Sin and death entered the world through one man, and in this way death came to all men because all sinned" (were held guilty of sin)--Ro 5:12.

You are ASSUMING the idea of all men being made sinners UNconditionally having inherited Adam's sin. The verse nor context remotely suggest men are Unconditionally made sinners nor UNconditionally made righteous. Romans 5:12 does not say "because all inherited Adam's sin" but says "because all have sinned". Have sinned shows personal culpability in having chosen to commit sin...commit a transgression. For nowhere does the Bible teach sin is just an idea or a substance passed from man to man but for one to be a sinner requires a choice in transgressing God's law, 1 John 3:4. Therefore it is impossible for one to be a sinner at conception or birth for no law has been transgressed by choice at conception/birth.

 

[Butterball1]

It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

You see if those Christ died for are not Justified before God before they believe, and not until they believe, then their act of faith becomes their Justification before God, and not Christ alone, which is error indeed !

If our faith is our righteousness/justification, then we are justified before God by our own righteousness, which is of the law, and not the righteousness of Christ Phil 3:9 4

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you say my Faith makes me just or righteous before God, then you shall be found justified by your own righteousness !

The "work of Jesus Christ" is sufficient to save all who have sinned (Titus 2:11) yet all who have sinned will not be saved for all who sinned will not obey Christ, Hebrews 5:9. And obedience is NEVER, EVER spoken of in the Bible as a work done to merit God's free gift. But obedience is a necessary precondition God chooses to put upon His gifts.

 

[Clare73]

You are ASSUMING the idea of all men being made sinners UNconditionally having inherited Adam's sin. The verse nor context remotely suggest men are Unconditionally made sinners nor UNconditionally made righteous. Romans 5:12 does not say "because all inherited Adam's sin" but says "because all have sinned". Have sinned shows personal culpability in having chosen to commit sin...commit a transgression. For nowhere does the Bible teach sin is just an idea or a substance passed from man to man but for one to be a sinner requires a choice in transgressing God's law, 1 John 3:4. Therefore it is impossible for one to be a sinner at conception or birth for no law has been transgressed by choice at conception/birth.

See post #112.

 

[Butterball1]

See post #112.

I did.

 

[Brightfame52]

The "work of Jesus Christ" is sufficient to save all who have sinned (Titus 2:11) yet all who have sinned will not be saved for all who sinned will not obey Christ, Hebrews 5:9. And obedience is NEVER, EVER spoken of in the Bible as a work done to merit God's free gift. But obedience is a necessary precondition God chooses to put upon His gifts.

Did you understand the post you quoted ? Explain what it said please.

 

[Brightfame52]

How therefore should we understand a scripture like this one which seems to be saying that ones faith is counted for righteousness ? Rom 4:5

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Its quite simple Faith here is the object of his Faith, Christ. See Jesus Christ is the Believers Righteousness made so by God the Father 1 Cor 1:30

30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 6

Isa 54:17

No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord.

Jer 33:16

In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The Lord our righteousness.


The Lord being our righteousness is sooner or later made known to God given Faith, hence, The Lord our righteousness is the object of our Faith !

 

[Brightfame52]

What Justification by Faith really is !

First of all, Justification by Faith cant apply to #1. The unregenerate, because Faith is a Spiritual Fruit 5:22 15

22 the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

Now, man may have faith which is the fruit of the flesh, a natural human faith, but that has nothing to do with Justification.

#2. Justification by Faith cant apply to the unjustified, in other words, one must already be Justified before God before they can be Justified by Faith.

Justification by Faith is when one who has been Justified by the Blood of Christ alone and before God based on Christ's Blood Rom 5:9 when they receive a conscience assurance of it by Faith the fruit of the Spirit.

Faith justifies the conscience with the spiritual knowledge of the imputed righteousness of Christ . God purifies our hearts by Faith Acts 15:8-9

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
The word heart here does include the conscience, for its the word kardia and means:

lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.

kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference


Faith gives us assurance of our Justification as in the full assurance of Faith Heb 10:22

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Justification by Faith Rom 5:1 is again conscience Justification, wherein the conscience is given to know the peace it has with God, and so its the peace of believing Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Brightfame52]

See, Faith is a work, in that its an Spiritual Grace/ Fruit Gal 5:22, so it can have no other way to Justify one but in the declarative sense. See God alone is the One who Justifieth Rom 8:33

[33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 30


See, Spiritual fruit is contrasted to works of the flesh Gal 5:19-20

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

And these works are done with or in the mind or heart. For instance Adultery, Jesus says its a work or done in the heart /mind Matt 5:28

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The word heart in the greek means:

the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

So by works of the flesh being contrasted to fruit of the Spirit, works and fruit are interchangeable denoting activities of the mind at work.

So unless we are careful to understand Justification by Faith to be declarative before our own conscience, and not an act of our mind that causes God to Justify us before Himself, then we shall error into Justification before God by our works, the fruit of our minds.

 

[Clare73]

What Justification by Faith really is !

First of all, Justification by Faith cant apply to #1. The unregenerate, because Faith is a Spiritual Fruit 5:22 15

22 the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith

Now, man may have faith which is the fruit of the flesh, a natural human faith, but that has nothing to do with Justification.

#2. Justification by Faith cant apply to the unjustified, in other words, one must already be Justified before God before they can be Justified by Faith.

"To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Ro 4:5)

Justification by Faith is when one who has been Justified by the Blood of Christ alone

Through faith in that blood -- "are justified freely. . .through faith in his blood." (Ro 3:24-25).

]and before God based on Christ's Blood Rom 5:9 when they receive a conscience assurance of it by Faith the fruit of the Spirit.

Faith justifies the conscience with the spiritual knowledge of the imputed righteousness of Christ . God purifies our hearts by Faith Acts 15:8-9

8And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
The word heart here does include the conscience, for its the word kardia and means:

lit: the heart; mind, character, inner self, will, intention, center.

kardía – heart; "the affective center of our being" and the capacity of moral preference


Faith gives us assurance of our Justification as in the full assurance of Faith Heb 10:22

Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Justification by Faith Rom 5:1 is again conscience Justification, wherein the conscience is given to know the peace it has with God, and so its the peace of believing Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.

 

[Clare73]

See, Faith is a work, in that its an Spiritual Grace/ Fruit Gal 5:22, so it can have no other way to Justify one but in the declarative sense. See God alone is the One who Justifieth Rom 8:33

Work is performance. . .faith is not performance. . .faith is conviction, belief, trust in the mind and heart on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin. And that faith justifies = God declares one "not guilty" and sets one in right relationship (acceptance) with him.

[33 Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. 30


See, Spiritual fruit is contrasted to works of the flesh Gal 5:19-20

19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

And these works are done with or in the mind or heart. For instance Adultery, Jesus says its a work or done in the heart /mind Matt 5:28

28 But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

The word heart in the greek means:

the soul or mind, as it is the fountain and seat of the thoughts, passions, desires, appetites, affections, purposes, endeavours

of the understanding, the faculty and seat of the intelligence

So by works of the flesh being contrasted to fruit of the Spirit, works and fruit are interchangeable denoting activities of the mind at work.

So unless we are careful to understand Justification by Faith to be declarative before our own conscience, and not an act of our mind that causes God to Justify us before Himself, then we shall error into Justification before God by our works, the fruit of our minds.

So our faith "justifies" us before our own conscience, and our conscience causes God to justify us before himself. . .
and you have made faith a work.

Not according to Paul. ."justification" has one meaning--declared "not guilty" by God himself and placed in right relationship (acceptance) with him by God himself.

You're in real trouble here. . .that's a fall from grace (Gal 5:4).

There is some kind of non-NT interpretive or reasoning process employed by some in these threads whereby denial of Jesus Christ can be justification, or faith can be a work. . .and which is really strange. . .it's almost like associative thinking. . .or free association thinking. . .just linking concepts together based merely on some perceived association, rather than a denoted association.

 

[Brightfame52]

Work is performance. . .faith is not performance. . .faith is conviction, belief, trust in the mind and heart on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin. And that faith justifies = God declares one "not guilty" and sets one in right relationship (acceptance) with him.
So our faith "justifies" us before our own conscience, and our conscience causes God to justify us before himself. . .
and you have made faith a work.

Not according to Paul. ."justification" has one meaning--declared "not guilty" by God himself and placed in right relationship (acceptance) with him by God himself.

You're in real trouble here. . .that's a fall from grace (Gal 5:4).

There is some kind of non-NT interpretive or reasoning process employed by some in these threads whereby denial of Jesus Christ can be justification, or faith can be a work. . .and which is really strange. . .it's almost like associative thinking. . .or free association thinking. . .just linking concepts together based merely on some perceived association, rather than a denoted association.

Yes according to Paul. I just explained it.

 

[Brightfame52]

"To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness." (Ro 4:5)

Through faith in that blood -- "are justified freely. . .through faith in his blood." (Ro 3:24-25).

Did you understand ?

 

[Clare73]

So our faith "justifies" us before our own conscience,

and our conscience causes God to justify us before himself. . .

and you have made faith a work.

Yes, according to Paul. I just explained it.

No, what you did was some kind of process of associative thinking. . .or free association thinking. . .linking concepts together based merely on some perceived association, rather than a denoted association. . .in reality, what you've done is contradict the NT with an associative process that makes no NT sense.

According to Paul. ."justification" has one meaning--declared "not guilty" by God himself and
placed in right relationship (acceptance) with him by God himself.

You're in real trouble here. . .that's a fall from grace (Gal 5:4)-based justification, back into works-based justification.

"To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked--not those whose "faith 'justifies' them before their own conscience"--his faith is credited as righteousness." (Ro 4:5)

Justification by Faith is when one who has been Justified by the Blood of Christ alone

Through faith in that blood -- Paul said, "are justified freely. . .through faith in his blood." (Ro 3:24-25)

Did you understand ?

I'm afraid I did, you've made faith a work, putting yourself in direct contradiction of Paul who excludes works in justification. . .with an
ANATHEMA! (Gal 1:6-9).

 

[Brightfame52]

No, what you did was some kind of process of associative thinking. . .or free association thinking. . .linking concepts together based merely on some perceived association, rather than a denoted association. . .in reality, what you've done is contradict the NT with an associative process that makes no NT sense.

According to Paul. ."justification" has one meaning--declared "not guilty" by God himself and
placed in right relationship (acceptance) with him by God himself.

You're in real trouble here. . .that's a fall from grace (Gal 5:4)-based justification, back into works-based justification.

"To the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked--not those whose "faith 'justifies' them before their own conscience"--his faith is credited as righteousness." (Ro 4:5)

Through faith in that blood -- Paul said, "are justified freely. . .through faith in his blood." (Ro 3:24-25)
I'm afraid I did, you've made faith a work, putting yourself in direct contradiction of Paul who excludes works in justification. . .with an
ANATHEMA! (Gal 1:7-9).

No I dont make faith a work, others do when they make faith a condition to get Justification before God in lieu of Christs blood alone being the bases of Justification before God, which Faith comprehends.

 

[Clare73]

No I dont make faith a work,

You presented a whole non-denotive rationale to demonstrate that faith is a work. . .now you disown it?

others do when they make faith a condition to get Justification before God in lieu of Christs blood alone being the bases of Justification before God, which Faith comprehends.

Without necessary faith, then all mankind is justified, even those who reject Jesus Christ. . .which is the goal of your non-denotive rationale.

Faith is an inner disposition, not an outward performance--it is belief in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin--a gift, granted (Php 1:29; Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2Pe 1:1; Ro 12:3)
through which is granted/imputed justification; i.e., declaration of "not guilty," given right standing (acceptance) with God by God himself.

 

[Brightfame52]

Faith is an inner disposition, not an outward performance--it is belief in and trust on the person and work of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin--a gift, granted (Php 1:29; Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2Pe 1:1; Ro 12:3)
through which is granted/imputed justification; i.e., declaration of "not guilty," given right standing (acceptance) with God by God himself.

Belief which is a action springs from faith. If you condition justification before God on your action, you promote a works based salvation/justification, a reason to boast !

 

[johnbunyan]

Any scripture for justification by “faith alone”?

As justification is righteousness:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe
Romans3:20-22

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
Romans4:6

 

[Clare73]

As justification is righteousness:
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in God’s sight by the works of the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of our sin.

21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe
Romans3:20-22

David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
Romans4:6

Good. . .see post #20 for many more.

 

[johnbunyan]

Good. . .see post #20 for many more.

Think we agree on this. Also, if water baptism is neccessary for salvation/ to be righteous before God/be in a saved state, then the unsaved can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues(Cornelius and his household Acts ch10)) That doesn't sound right to me.
Also.
The Holy Spirit powerfully convicts someone of their sin. They sink to their knees, tears streaming down their cheeks and ask God to forgive them of their sins. They then ask Jesus into their life as their Lord and Saviour. How will God respond? Will he say:
''I will forgive you, but not yet, only when you have been baptised in water''
That doesn't sound right to me either

 

[johnbunyan]

What about baptism?

if water baptism is neccessary for salvation/ to be righteous before God/be in a saved state, then the unsaved/unrighteous can receive the Holy Spirit as the disciples did at Pentecost and speak in tongues(Cornelius and his household Acts ch10)) That doesn't sound right to me.