Justification?

[Ephfourfive]

Those who do not believe and trust in the person and atoning work of Jesus Christ for the remission of their sin are not saved (Jn 3:18, 36),
as in Orthodox Jews, who reject Jesus Christ, and remain locked-up in their sin of unbelief.

We must believe Jesus?
Ok He said faith and baptism Mk 16:16
He who endures to the end shall be saved matt 24:13
Faith and suffering

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

 

[Clare73]

We must believe Jesus?
Ok He said faith and baptism Mk 16:16
He who endures to the end shall be saved matt 24:13
Faith and suffering

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. 5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Matthew 16:25
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

John 12:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

25
He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

Romans 5:3
And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

Romans 5:4
And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Agreed. . .

I don't know what your point is, what to respond to.

Are you disagreeing with posts #85 or #95?

 

[Ephfourfive]

Agreed. . .

I don't know what your point is, what to respond to.

Are you disagreeing with posts #85 or #95?

Thank you for helping me have a Biblical understanding

It is a difficult subject

The body of Christ is a church and the new covenant there must be an outward sign of initiation into this covenant to be in union with the mediator and in communion with both God and the saints:
What is this initiation and outward sign?

 

[Clare73]

Thank you for helping me have a Biblical understanding

It is a difficult subject

The body of Christ is a church and the new covenant there must be an outward sign of initiation into this covenant to be in union with the mediator and in communion with both God and the saints:
What is this initiation and outward sign?

I understand.

Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant of grace, as circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant of grace (Col 2:11-12),
both signs being required.

But, so that I'm clear, while deeds of obedience are not involved in justification (declared "not guilty," sin forgiven) so that "no one can boast," deeds of obedience are involved in the process of sanctification/holiness--dealing with our sin, etc.--for "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

 

[Butterball1]

Addressed in post #58 (presented in your post #96, above). Let's do it again.

Perhaps your "not being consistent within the verse" is my "actually being consistent within the entire NT."

Or perhaps you are unaware of Paul's frequent usage of such words as "the whole world" and "all" in two different ways:
1) all without exception = all mankind,
2) all without distinction = Gentile as well as Jew,

of which Ro 5:18-19 is an example:
". . .just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all (without exception) men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all (without distinction, Gentile as well as Jew) men. For Just as through the disobedience of the one man, the many (does not exclude "all") were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many (does not require "all") will be made righteous."

You are still reading your ideas into the verse as you prove above.

Romans 5:19
(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
(b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is an if-then type statement. If (a) is true, so (b) is equally true. Whatever one assumes into (a) they must also assume it into (b). So if one assumes the idea many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous then that same idea must equally be applied to (b) that many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous.

Romans 5:18
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

If (a) is true so also is (b) equally true. If 'all men' are UNconditionally condemned then even so is that same 'all men' UNconditionally justified.

There is nothing in the NT that says all men are UNconditionally condemned as there is no verse that says all men will be UNconditionally justified.

Romans 5:17
(a) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
(b) much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Again, if (a) is true, then (b) is equally true. One commentator accurately sums up the failure of the Calvinist's assumption: (my emp) " The Calvinists assume that spiritual death reigned through Adam, because we all inherited the guilt of his sins. But if this is the case, then how are we to interpret the rest of the verse? If all have inherited Adam's guilt, why don't we all inherit the gift of righteousness through Christ? If all are sinners in Adam, then all must be saved in Christ. Death reigned through Adam, because all men made the choice to follow in his steps (5:12 "because all sinned"). Likewise those who receive the abundance of grace/gift of righteousness and spiritual life through Christ, are those that CHOSE IT (Acts 2:41)." Dunagan.

There is an old saying that you can't change horses in the middle of a stream. Likewise one cannot change interpretation in the middle of a verse for the obvious reason of protecting a theological bias.

 

[Ephfourfive]

I understand.

Baptism is the sign of the New Covenant of grace, as circumcision was the sign of the Abrahamic covenant of grace (Col 2:11-12),
both signs being required.

But, so that I'm clear, while deeds of obedience are not involved in justification (declared "not guilty," sin forgiven) so that "no one can boast," deeds of obedience are involved in the process of sanctification/holiness--dealing with our sin, etc.--for "Without holiness, no one will see the Lord." (Heb 12:14)

Is grace and righteousness imputed in baptism?

 

[Clare73]

You are still reading your ideas into the verse as you prove above.

You are still not taking Scripture in the context of the whole NT, and are setting Scripture against itself:
Ro 5:18b, 19b (below) against Jn 3:18--"whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already."--etc., etc., etc.

All men are not made righteous by Christ's obedience, only those who believe are made righteous by Christ's obedience (Jn 3:18).
"All" in 5:18a = all men, without exception; i.e. all mankind,
"All" in 5:18b = all men, without distinction; i.e., Gentile as well as Jew.

Romans 5:18
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
If (a) is true so also is (b) equally true. If 'all men' are UNconditionally condemned then even so is that same 'all men' UNconditionally justified.

There is nothing in the NT that says all men are UNconditionally condemned as there is no verse that says all men will be UNconditionally justified.

Romans 5:19
(a) For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners,
(b) so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

This is an if-then type statement. If (a) is true, so (b) is equally true. Whatever one assumes into (a) they must also assume it into (b). So if one assumes the idea many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous then that same idea must equally be applied to (b) that many are UNCONDITIONALLY made righteous.

Romans 5:18
(a) Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;
(b) even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

Romans 5:17
(a) For if by one man's offence death reigned by one;
(b) much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.

Again, if (a) is true, then (b) is equally true. One commentator accurately sums up the failure of the Calvinist's assumption: (my emp) " The Calvinists assume that spiritual death reigned through Adam, because we all inherited the guilt of his sins. But if this is the case, then how are we to interpret the rest of the verse? If all have inherited Adam's guilt, why don't we all inherit the gift of righteousness through Christ? If all are sinners in Adam, then all must be saved in Christ. Death reigned through Adam, because all men made the choice to follow in his steps (5:12 "because all sinned"). Likewise those who receive the abundance of grace/gift of righteousness and spiritual life through Christ, are those that CHOSE IT (Acts 2:41)." Dunagan.

There is an old saying that you can't change horses in the middle of a stream. Likewise one cannot change interpretation in the middle of a verse for the obvious reason of protecting a theological bias.

 

[Clare73]

Is grace and righteousness imputed in baptism?

No, Baptism is only the sign, as was circumcision, that you have become part of the people of God, and the angels then number you among their charges.

According to Paul's revelation, saving grace, righteousness is imputed only through faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

 

[Ephfourfive]

No, Baptism is only the sign, as was circumcision, that you have become part of the people of God, and the angels then number you among their charges.

According to Paul's revelation, saving grace, righteousness is imputed only through faith and trust in the person and work of Jesus Christ.

Acts 22:16 how can it wash away sins?
And unite us to Christ in the church?
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

 

[Butterball1]

You are still not taking Scripture in the context of the whole NT, and are setting Scripture against itself:
Ro 5:18b, 19b (below) against Jn 3:18--"whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already."--etc., etc., etc.

All men are not made righteous by Christ's obedience, only those who believe are made righteous by Christ's obedience (Jn 3:18).
"All" in 5:18a = all men, without exception; i.e. all mankind,
"All" in 5:18b = all men, without distinction; i.e., Gentile as well as Jew.

Nowhere in the whole of the NT does it teach men are UNconditionally made sinners or UNconditionally made righteous. The idea of unconditionality is being assumed in the verses in Romans 5 where it is convenient and not assumed where it's not convenient..

You are assuming your theological agenda into the verses with the "without exception" and "without distinction". You are changing your interpretation in the middle of the verse. If "without exception" is true for 18(a) and 19(a) then it is equally true for 18(b) and 19(b). Which this is Paul's point.....if (a) is true then (b) is equally true. You're pitting (a) against (b) with change of interpretation.

Above you ADMIT being made righteous is CONDITIONAL upon one believing. Therefore proper consistent interpretation is one is CONDITIOANLLY made a sinner for not believing....if (a) is true then (b) is equally true. There is not an incident in the whole of the NT of one being made righteous UNconditionally apart from believing as there is not an incident of one being UNconditionally made a sinner apart from unbelieving/sinning. Romans 5:1 those that CONDITIONALLY have faith are made righteous, Romans 5:12 those that choose to sin are CONDITIONALLY made sinners.

Romans 9:11 infants have done no good or evil meaning they are neutral not unconditionally made righteous or sinners. They are essentially born a clean slate until they intellectually mature (age of accountability) and choose to sin or choose to do righteousness, Romans 7:8-9. Adam was CONDITIONALLY made a sinner not until he chose to sin and the same is true for men today when they choose to sin. Romans 6:16-18 men are CONDITIONALLY justified when they obey from the heart.

(These verses in Romans 5 not only refute the idea of OS but also refutes Calvinism's idea of limited atonement as the verses shows that the benefits of Christ's death extend to all those who have been infected with sin and not just some men.)

 

[Clare73]

Acts 22:16 how can it wash away sins?
And unite us to Christ in the church?
1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ

Good question. . .you'll like the answer.

In NT times, Baptism followed so closely on conversion that the two were considered part of the same event.
So, although Baptism is not the means by which we enter into a faith relationship with Jesus, it is closely associated with faith--Baptism depicts graphically what happens as the result of the Christian's union with Christ which comes with faith--through faith we are united with Christ.

It is what is meant by "sacramental union," whereby the multiple effects of one (of justification by faith) are attributed to the other (to Baptism)--cleansing of sin, dying with Christ, buried with him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life (Ro 6:3-5).

But Baptism in itself is not saving faith and does not justify, it only depicts those events, it is not the events themselves.

 

[Clare73]

You are still not taking Scripture in the context of the whole NT, and are setting Scripture against itself:
Ro 5:18b, 19b (below) against Jn 3:18--"whoever does not believe in the Son stands condemned already."--etc., etc., etc.

All men are not made righteous by Christ's obedience, only those who believe are made righteous by Christ's obedience (Jn 3:18).
"All" in 5:18a = all men, without exception; i.e. all mankind,
"All" in 5:18b = all men, without distinction; i.e., Gentile as well as Jew.

Nowhere in the whole of the NT does it teach men are UNconditionally made sinners

Non-responsive to my point and Scriptural demonstration presented above.

To your point--that would be Ro 5:18--"the result of one trespass (Adam's rebellion) was condemnation for all men" (original sin)

or UNconditionally made righteous.

The "condition" is faith (Eph2:8-9, 4-5; Ro 3:24, etc.)

The idea of unconditionality is being assumed in the verses in Romans 5 where it is convenient and not assumed where it's not convenient

You'll have to take that up with Paul, it's his revelation, not mine.

You are assuming your theological agenda into the verses with the "without exception" and "without distinction". You are changing your interpretation in the middle of the verse. If "without exception" is true for 18(a) and 19(a) then it is equally true for 18(b) and 19(b). Which this is Paul's point.....if (a) is true then (b) is equally true. You're pitting (a) against (b) with change of interpretation.

Above you ADMIT being made righteous is CONDITIONAL upon one believing. Therefore proper consistent interpretation is one is CONDITIOANLLY made a sinner for not believing....if (a) is true then (b) is equally true. There is not an incident in the whole of the NT of one being made righteous UNconditionally apart from believing as there is not an incident of one being UNconditionally made a sinner apart from unbelieving/sinning. Romans 5:1 those that CONDITIONALLY have faith are made righteous, Romans 5:12 those that choose to sin are CONDITIONALLY made sinners.

Romans 9:11 infants have done no good or evil meaning they are neutral not unconditionally made righteous or sinners. They are essentially born a clean slate until they intellectually mature (age of accountability) and choose to sin or choose to do righteousness, Romans 7:8-9. Adam was CONDITIONALLY made a sinner not until he chose to sin and the same is true for men today when they choose to sin. Romans 6:16-18 men are CONDITIONALLY justified when they obey from the heart.

(These verses in Romans 5 not only refute the idea of OS but also refutes Calvinism's idea of limited atonement as the verses shows that the benefits of Christ's death extend to all those who have been infected with sin and not just some men.)

 

[Ephfourfive]

Good question. . .you'll like the answer.

In NT times, Baptism followed so closely on conversion that the two were considered part of the same event.
So, although Baptism is not the means by which we enter into a faith relationship with Jesus, it is closely associated with faith--Baptism depicts graphically what happens as the result of the Christian's union with Christ which comes with faith--through faith we are united with Christ.

It is what is meant by "sacramental union," whereby the multiple effects of one (of justification by faith) are attributed to the other (to Baptism)--cleansing of sin, dying with Christ, buried with him through baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life (Ro 6:3-5).

But Baptism in itself is not saving faith and does not justify, it only depicts those events, it is not the events themselves.

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

 

[Clare73]

1 Pet 3:20
Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

Actually that reads: "and this water symbolizes baptism. . .not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge (response) of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Christ."

The essence of Baptism is not a "washing that saves," it's the commitment in good conscience to make sure that what Baptism symbolizes will become a reality in one's life.

And we've already looked at sacramental union, whereby the effects of one (saving faith) are attributed to the other (Baptism).

(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark all died and outside the church there is no salvation!)

Yes, outside the body of Christ, there is no salvation.

 

[Ephfourfive]

Actually that reads: "and this water symbolizes baptism. . .not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge (response) of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Christ."

The essence of Baptism is not a "washing that saves," it's the commitment in good conscience to make sure that what Baptism symbolizes will become a reality in one's life.

And we've already looked at sacramental union, whereby the effects of one (saving faith) are attributed to the other (Baptism).

Yes, outside the body of Christ, there is no salvation.

Still says faith and baptism
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
baptism Saves us! 1 pet 3:21
Disciples by baptism Matt 28:19
Having all faith and not charity avails nothing 1 cor 13:2

 

[Clare73]

Still says faith and baptism
Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38
baptism Saves us! 1 pet 3:21
Disciples by baptism Matt 28:19
Having all faith and not charity avails nothing 1 cor 13:2

Yes, Baptism is the required sign of the New Covenant of grace, just as circumcision was the required sign of the Abrahamic Covenant of grace (Col 2:11-12).

We've been over these.

Yes, Paul is establishing the importance of spiritual fruits over spiritual gifts in the Corinthian church.

 

[Butterball1]

Non-responsive to my point and Scriptural demonstration presented above.

To your point--that would be Ro 5:18--"the result of one trespass (Adam's rebellion) was condemnation for all men" (original sin)
The "condition" is faith (Eph2:8-9, 4-5; Ro 3:24, etc.)
You'll have to take that up with Paul, it's his revelation, not mine.

All I saw you do is change meaning of words, change interpretation in mid-verse and put words in Paul's mouth he never said (as "unconditional") to protect your personal theology.

 

[Clare73]

Nowhere in the whole of the NT does it teach men are UNconditionally made sinners

All I saw you do is change meaning of words, change interpretation in mid-verse and put words in Paul's mouth he never said (as "unconditional") to protect your personal theology.

UNconditional is not my word, see your posts above. I've never used it.
If you're referring to Paul and "original sin" in Ro 5:18, your issue is with Paul, not me.

Ro 5:18 - "just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men. . ."

The wages of sin is death (Ro 6:23). And where there is no law, there is no sin. (Ro 5:13)
Yet death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin (by breaking any law) (Ro 5:14),
for there was no law to break.
Therefore, since death is the penalty for sin, those between Adam and Moses were involved in the sin of someone else; viz., Adam.
"Sin and death entered the world through one man, and in this way death came to all men because all sinned" (were held guilty of sin)--Ro 5:12.

 

[Brightfame52]

Justification by Faith:

Gal 3:24

Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Now what is it to be Justified by Faith? It's one or two things #1 Its to be Justified by His Faith/Faithfulness, meaning Jesus Christ, its the Faith of Jesus Christ. #2 It's when that Justification by Christ is declared or pronounced in the conscience of the already Justified.

It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

 

[Brightfame52]

It's never meaning that faith is a condition we must act in order to get Justified before God, cause that overthrows Justification before God based solely upon the Person and Work of Jesus Christ , what He did for the Justified. Then it becomes justification by our works, a false gospel!

You see if those Christ died for are not Justified before God before they believe, and not until they believe, then their act of faith becomes their Justification before God, and not Christ alone, which is error indeed !

If our faith is our righteousness/justification, then we are justified before God by our own righteousness, which is of the law, and not the righteousness of Christ Phil 3:9 4

And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

If you say my Faith makes me just or righteous before God, then you shall be found justified by your own righteousness !