"JUSTIFICATION": to the wicked, or to the just?

[Clare73]

If they believe first then they werent ungodly when He Justified them.

But they had no works of righteousness, only unrighteousness, which means God justified the wicked (Romans 4:5).

Are you denying authoritative NT apostolic teaching in Romans 4:5?

 

[Brightfame52]

But they had no works of righteousness, only unrighteousness, which means God justified the wicked (Romans 4:5).

Are you denying authoritative NT apostolic teaching in Romans 4:5?

I am questioning your comment earlier. If God Justifies a person when they believe, then they werent ungodly. Rom 4:5 is saying God justified the persons while being ungodly, an unbeliever.

 

[Clare73]

I am questioning your comment earlier.
If God Justifies a person when they believe, then they werent ungodly.

They were before they believed.
Justification comes with faith and salvation.

Rom 4:5 is saying God justified the persons while being ungodly, an unbeliever.

Are you denying Romans 4:5. . .or trying to understand it?

They had no works of righteousness--they were unrighteous (wicked) when they came to faith, upon which faith they were declared righteous (justified).

 

[Brightfame52]

They were before they believed.
Justification comes with faith and salvation.

Are you denying Romans 4:5. . .or trying to understand it?

They had no works of righteousness--they were unrighteous (wicked) when they came to faith, upon which faith they were declared righteous (justified).

You deny Rom 4:5, since it is saying they were Justified before God while ungodly unbelievers.

 

[Clare73]

You deny Rom 4:5, since it is saying they were Justified before God while ungodly unbelievers.

No, I am explaining Romans 4:5: they had no righteous works--therefore, were ungodly,
when they were justified by faith, which is not a work.
They were justified without godly/righteous works, because faith is not a work, a physical performance.

 

[Brightfame52]

No, I am explaining Romans 4:5: they had no righteous works--therefore, were ungodly,
when they were justified by faith, which is not a work.

So were they Justified before God while being ungodly, unbelievers, Yes or No

 

[Clare73]

So were they Justified before God while being ungodly, unbelievers, Yes or No

Have you stopped beating animals. . .Yes or No?

Your premise is erroneous.

 

[Brightfame52]

Have you stopped beating animals. . .Yes or No?

You scared to answer with a Yes or No because it will expose what you really believe.

So were they Justified before God while being ungodly, unbelievers, Yes or No

 

[Clare73]

You scared to answer with a Yes or No because it will expose what you really believe.

So were they Justified before God while being ungodly, unbelievers, Yes or No

You scared to answer Yes or No because it will expose what you really believe?

So have you stopped beating animals, Yes or No?
You scared to answer Yes or No because it will expose your cruelty?

Did not mean to offend you.
You are defining faith as righteousness.

Righteousness comes from God only (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21), by imputation/crediting only, as it did with Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

Faith does not make us righteous, rather God imputes/credits righteousness (justifies) to us when we believe, which faith, in and of itself, is not righteousness, but the occasion on which God credits us with his righteousness, as he did Abraham.

God justifies (credits righteousness to) the ungodly, their faith does not justify them, their faith is simply the occasion upon which God justifies (credits his righteousness to) them.

God justifies the ungodly, their faith does not.

 

[Brightfame52]

So have you stopped beating animals, Yes or No?
You scared to answer Yes or No because it will expose your cruelty?

Did not mean to offend you.
You are defining faith as righteousness.

Righteousness comes from God only (Romans 1:17, Romans 3:21), by imputation/crediting only, as it did with Abraham (Genesis 15:6; Romans 4:2-3).

Faith does not make us righteous, rather God imputes/credits righteousness (justifies) to us when we believe, which faith, in and of itself, is not righteousness, but the occasion on which God credits us with his righteousness, as he did Abraham.

God justifies (credits righteousness to) the ungodly, their faith does not justify them, their faith is simply the occasion upon which God justifies (credits his righteousness to) them.

God justifies the ungodly, their faith does not.

Get back with me when you have the courage to answer yes or no.

 

[fhansen]

First let me show you a verse from Brenton's Septuagint Translation:
Exodus 23:7 Thou shalt abstain from every unjust thing: thou shalt not slay the innocent and just, and thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

In this translation it is a commandment, to not justify the wicked. And "for gifts" is a reference to bribery. As we should not accept "free gifts" they are bribery. 8"Do not accept bribe[...]". At least in this context of justification.

In NLT it reads: "[...]I never declare a guilty person to be innocent." The "I" is refering to the God of Israel, and in other translations it says He will not justify the wicked.

And this "wicked" is anyone who breaks God's Law: sinners, guilty, ungodly are all synonyms commonly used, and can be found in Strong's. These are the people God won't justify.
Woe to them:
Isaiah 5:22 Woe to the strong ones of you that drink wine, and the mighty ones that mingle strong drink:
23who justify the ungodly for rewards, and take away the righteousness of the righteous.

Here we see that, it is the sinners that justify the ungodly, not God, and these sinners justify the ungodly "for rewards" or for a bribe.

We also have this verse from NASB:
Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

It is evident the true God of Israel will not justify the sinner, neither the wicked, nor the ungodly. Not only that, but anyone who does, is probably a sinner who did it for a reward, and they are all an abomination to the LORD.

And now we have this verse, I took from Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

Excuse me, what? "The One who justifies sinners"? Who would that be?
Surely it isn't the God of Israel, who said He will not justify sinners, and He cannot contradict Himself.
Keep in mind this is to "the one who does not labor" meaning the sinners who do not keep the works of the Law, like the commandments. To them it is "credited" righteousness, almost like a "free gift", reminds me of bribery. And all they have to do is believe on "the one who justifies sinners".

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

They're apples and oranges. It's wrong-and weakminded- to declare a sinner to be just or righteous when they're unjust-right is right and wrong is wrong, ref Is 5:20 and 1 John 3. God does something totally different: He makes the sinner just, and He, alone, can do this. He forgives sin and then gives us a new heart, Ez 36:26, putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, Jer 31:33.

 

[BNR32FAN]

First let me show you a verse from Brenton's Septuagint Translation:
Exodus 23:7 Thou shalt abstain from every unjust thing: thou shalt not slay the innocent and just, and thou shalt not justify the wicked for gifts.

In this translation it is a commandment, to not justify the wicked. And "for gifts" is a reference to bribery. As we should not accept "free gifts" they are bribery. 8"Do not accept bribe[...]". At least in this context of justification.

In NLT it reads: "[...]I never declare a guilty person to be innocent." The "I" is refering to the God of Israel, and in other translations it says He will not justify the wicked.

And this "wicked" is anyone who breaks God's Law: sinners, guilty, ungodly are all synonyms commonly used, and can be found in Strong's. These are the people God won't justify.
Woe to them:
Isaiah 5:22 Woe to the strong ones of you that drink wine, and the mighty ones that mingle strong drink:
23who justify the ungodly for rewards, and take away the righteousness of the righteous.

Here we see that, it is the sinners that justify the ungodly, not God, and these sinners justify the ungodly "for rewards" or for a bribe.

We also have this verse from NASB:
Proverbs 17:15 One who justifies the wicked and one who condemns the righteous, Both of them alike are an abomination to the LORD.

It is evident the true God of Israel will not justify the sinner, neither the wicked, nor the ungodly. Not only that, but anyone who does, is probably a sinner who did it for a reward, and they are all an abomination to the LORD.

And now we have this verse, I took from Aramaic Bible in Plain English:
Romans 4:5 But to the one who does not labor, but believes only in The One who justifies sinners, is his faith accounted for righteousness.

Excuse me, what? "The One who justifies sinners"? Who would that be?
Surely it isn't the God of Israel, who said He will not justify sinners, and He cannot contradict Himself.
Keep in mind this is to "the one who does not labor" meaning the sinners who do not keep the works of the Law, like the commandments. To them it is "credited" righteousness, almost like a "free gift", reminds me of bribery. And all they have to do is believe on "the one who justifies sinners".

So who is "the one who justifies sinners" ?

Jesus is the one who justifies sinners and the work in Romans 4 is used in contrast to works for the purpose of justification. Paul is pointing out that we do not earn our justification by works of the law like circumcision.

 

[Brightfame52]

They're apples and oranges. It's wrong-and weakminded- to declare a sinner to be just or righteous when they're unjust-right is right and wrong is wrong, ref Is 5:20 and 1 John 3. God does something totally different: He makes the sinner just, and He, alone, can do this. He forgives sin and then gives us a new heart, Ez 36:26, putting His law in our minds and writing it on our hearts, Jer 31:33.

An ungodly sinner that Christ died for is Justified because God has imputed to them Christs Righteousness, so thats why they are Justified, not because they are ungodly. So they are Justified on a Just Ground, Righteousness imputed Rom 4:5-6

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

 

[fhansen]

An ungodly sinner that Christ died for is Justified because God has imputed to them Christs Righteousness, so thats why they are Justified, not because they are ungodly. So they are Justified on a Just Ground, Righteousness imputed Rom 4:5-6

The only reason that a person must be justified is because they are ungodly, sinful, unrighteous. Sin kills man, earning us death, separating us from God. So whether one believes that righteousness is strictly imputed to man because of what Christ did or that righteousness is actually given to man because of what Christ did, either way God is requiring that the "righteous requirements of the law" be met in us. And in any case, only God can do that; only God can justify man.

But the problem is that if man's justice or righteousness is only imputed, as if justification consisted of forgiveness and the remission of sin alone, then sin/unrighteousness is left undealt with, we remain unchanged. As it is we now have the ability, by grace, to overcome sin:

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:12-13

 

[Brightfame52]

The only reason that a person must be justified is because they are ungodly, sinful, unrighteous. Sin kills man, earning us death, separating us from God. So whether one believes that righteousness is strictly imputed to man because of what Christ did or that righteousness is actually given to man because of what Christ did, either way God is requiring that the "righteous requirements of the law" be met in us. And in any case, only God can do that; only God can justify man.

But the problem is that if man's justice or righteousness is only imputed, as if justification consisted of forgiveness and the remission of sin alone, then sin/unrighteousness is left undealt with, we remain unchanged. As it is we now have the ability, by grace, to overcome sin:

"And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." Rom 8:3-4

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. Rom 8:12-13

I dont think you understand. Gods elect are Justified while they are ungodly because for them sin has been dealt with entirely. Christ paid the penalty of death for their sins Rom 6:23 and He lived a life of pure obedience to the Law of God for them. So they are Justified while ungodly.

 

[fhansen]

I dont think you understand. Gods elect are Justified while they are ungodly because for them sin has been dealt with entirely. Christ paid the penalty of death for their sins Rom 6:23 and He lived a life of pure obedience to the Law of God for them. So they are Justified while ungodly.

Well, yes, He died for us while we were yet sinners. But that doesn’t mean that we’re to remain in the same sinful state, the same ungodliness. We’re new creations now, sons of God and so finally enabled to live like it by His grace, and obligated to do so. We are truly justified: made just. Now we must live like His children, maintaining and walking in that justice/righteousness, possible only as we remain in Him.

Jesus fulfilled the law so that we may now begin to as well, even if we've never even heard the law incidentally, with a true righteousness that comes only from Him:

"But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe." Rom 8:21-22

 

[Brightfame52]

fhansen

Well, yes, He died for us while we were yet sinners

And thats what Justified them He died for, His death ! Do you deny that ?

 

[fhansen]

fhansen



And thats what Justified them He died for, His death ! Do you deny that ?

Why would I deny it? We must accept it, first, turning to Him in faith, but it's what we do after we're justified, whether or not we can compromise and lose our state of justice, returning to the flesh/sin after all Jesus did for us, that is the question.

 

[Brightfame52]

Why would I deny it? We must accept it, first, turning to Him in faith, but it's what we do after we're justified, whether or not we can compromise and lose our state of justice, returning to the flesh/sin after all Jesus did for us, that is the question.

Well if you dont deny it, then you should understand that sinners are Justified while still ungodly !

 

[fhansen]

Well if you dont deny it, then you should understand that sinners are Justified while still ungodly !

I never said otherwise. We're all sinners and only God can justify man, not ourselves. That's the basis of the New Covenant.