Justification by Works?

[doubtingmerle]

Without him placing his son on the altar, Abraham's 'faith' would have been incomplete! Thus, he combined faith, with 'works', proving that faith without works, as James said, is dead.

Placing your son on the altar, with the intention of killing him, is a bad thing to do, yes?

 

[Starcomet]

There are people who don't believe in God and do works for the sake of others, so how is that proof that one believes in God?

If one does good things because that leads to justification and heaven, isn't one really doing it for one's self? As long as the threat of hell and the promise of heaven exists conditioned on behavior, one can hardly argue that his motives are unselfish.

I contend that people really do have a nature that makes them want to help others. When we follow our inner nature, rather than striving to please God, we find ourselves truly living for others from good motives.

But that is the thing, when you do good deeds just to get into heaven, your character is not pleasing to God. A true human being would do it because it is right. If a person does not have belief in God, can it still be said that God is pleased that they are doing good for the sake of others?

 

[doubtingmerle]

But that is the thing, when you do good deeds just to get into heaven, your character is not pleasing to God.

If we do good things to get to heaven, that is a selfish thing to do.

However, I have repeatedly been told on this thread that you have to do good things to get to heaven. One wanders how many people who do these things really have the selfish motive of maximizing their heavenly position.

A true human being would do it because it is right.

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Correct. As long as one is a true human being, there is something inside him that wants to do good. So we should follow that inner light and do what is good.


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If a person does not have belief in God, can it still be said that God is pleased that they are doing good for the sake of others?

I have no way of knowing what God, if he exists, wants.

One would hope that he would be pleased that people do good, regardless of whether they believe in him.

 

[Starcomet]

If we do good things to get to heaven, that is a selfish thing to do.

However, I have repeatedly been told on this thread that you have to do good things to get to heaven. One wanders how many people who do these things really have the selfish motive of maximizing their heavenly position.

If you do good things just so you can get to heaven, that is the wrong way to do it. I do good things simply because it is required of me as a human being that is following Jesus' words and example (among others but his primarily). The thought that such deeds will help with getting into heaven is not the main focus for me.

Correct. As long as one is a true human being, there is something inside him that wants to do good. So we should follow that inner light and do what is good.

And that is because we humans have the capacity to do good as endowed by God. We hold a spark of him inside of us and when we do good we feel better about ourselves (in general for most people) and increase our inner light or inner God.


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I have no way of knowing what God, if he exists, wants.

One would hope that he would be pleased that people do good, regardless of whether they believe in him.

That is what I believe too. If a person believes and truly trust or have faith in God, then they must do what is right as a human being and a child of God the creator. If one does not have such a belief but still do good because it is right, then it can be said possibly they have belief without knowing it. A person can still do good without a belief in a deity, but it helps to worship one and I believe can provide true happiness.

 

[Lost4words]

Placing your son on the altar, with the intention of killing him, is a bad thing to do, yes?

You misread my post. You know exactly what i was stating

 

[doubtingmerle]

You misread my post. You know exactly what i was stating

Yes, I know exactly what you were stating. And for the record I will repeat it again:

Without him placing his son on the altar, Abraham's 'faith' would have been incomplete!

And so I was wondering if you agree with me that placing your son on the altar with the intention of killing him is a bad thing to do.

I note that you did not answer.

 

[Hazelelponi]

If we do good things to get to heaven, that is a selfish thing to do.

However, I have repeatedly been told on this thread that you have to do good things to get to heaven. One wanders how many people who do these things really have the selfish motive of maximizing their heavenly position.

Correct. As long as one is a true human being, there is something inside him that wants to do good. So we should follow that inner light and do what is good.


​

I have no way of knowing what God, if he exists, wants.

One would hope that he would be pleased that people do good, regardless of whether they believe in him.

Perhaps I can help shed some light on the matter.. I've made some posts in another thread on this topic you may find helpful.

Let's say your an atheist, but your a good person. Your charitable, don't hurt anyone, aren't involved in any major sins.. you have good "works" in your hand.

Yet, the Bible says the atheist will rise to judgment and condemnation based on his disbelief in Jesus.

On the other hand I'm standing over here. My "works" are similar to yours. I'm generally a good person, don't have any major sins to my account, charitable and so forth..

Yet I'm justified by my belief in Christ and will rise to life because as Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No one comes to the Father but through me."

So its obvious that the outward lack of sins and various good works isnt what justifies us.

At this point we must ask ourselves; so can we look to a general lack of sins and general good works after our initial justification as being the means or vessel of our ultimate salvation? It seems silly when we see it like this doesn't it?

If works has no bearing before justification then it has no bearing after justification either, everything about salvation must have its root in Christ or it's false.

Therefore, the works we are looking for after our initial justification are works that come from a regenerated heart - works that are God-centered and have the Will of God in mind - not self, not some arbitrary reward or human reason. Yet the works won't save you, they are the product of ones justification.

There are two types of works which come from two different reasonings for moral acts. One morality is based on God and God alone, and works in accordance to the Will of God. (God wills it, so I will it, God loves them, so I love them)

The other morality is the morality of man. It works and does in accordance to what he thinks is right, and can be based on personal experience or a view of social necessity, but it is man-centered.

The first kind of work is what the justified man does, the later is not. The first kind is possible through Christ.

James says there will most certainly be some type of physical or outward proof of our faith, but that doesn't contradict with Grace and it doesn't add or subtract from salvation, it simply shows faiths existence. It outwardly shows the internal change wrought in you by God.

 

[Oldmantook]

Ah, so when Romans 4 speaks of works, it speaks of evil works of the flesh. Let's substitute that phrase in the verses and see what we get:
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Now to him that [does evil works of the flesh] is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.​

But to him that [does not do evil works of the flesh] , but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:4-5​

Which makes on sense. Why would there be a reward for doing evil works? Why would anyone owe a debt to someone for doing evil works? Sorry, your argument makes no sense.

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And if salvation requires that we stop doing the works of the flesh, there are a lot of Christians who fail to make that mark.

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OK, John 5:24 says belief alone is another, but Hebrews 5:9 says it is not. So they contradict? That happens to be my point.

You have managed to still interpret Rom 4 incorrectly. I already pointed out to you that works in the flesh in this passage = works done in our own strength. NOT EVIL WORKS. They could be good works to EARN one's salvation which is nothing to boast about. Therefore:
Now to him that [does works in his own strength] is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that [does not do works in his own strengh], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:4-5
Make sense?

BOTH belief AND obedience are required for eternal life. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[Lost4words]

Yes, I know exactly what you were stating. And for the record I will repeat it again:



And so I was wondering if you agree with me that placing your son on the altar with the intention of killing him is a bad thing to do.

I note that you did not answer.

Its not a bad thing as first of all Abraham had faith in God so, he carried out that faith by doing 'works', thus, taking his son to a place where 'he' would place him on an alter and sacrifice him (works) for his love and faith in God.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Its not a bad thing as first of all Abraham had faith in God so, he carried out that faith by doing 'works', thus, taking his son to a place where 'he' would place him on an alter and sacrifice him (works) for his love and faith in God.

So so you don't think it is a bad thing to tie one's son up on an altar and raise a knife with the intention of killing him. I think that is a very bad thing to do.

 

[Hazelelponi]

So so you don't think it is a bad thing to tie one's son up on an altar and raise a knife with the intention of killing him. I think that is a very bad thing to do.

Abraham trusted God with a purity of faith. He knew God was good, and his faith and trust in God was born out correctly - Abrahams faith was not misplaced and the Lord did indeed provide the sacrifice.



It's faith. Trusting in the goodness of God.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You have managed to still interpret Rom 4 incorrectly. I already pointed out to you that works in the flesh in this passage = works done in our own strength. NOT EVIL WORKS. They could be good works to EARN one's salvation which is nothing to boast about. Therefore:
Now to him that [does works in his own strength] is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

But to him that [does not do works in his own strengh], but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Romans 4:4-5
Make sense?

BOTH belief AND obedience are required for eternal life. You cannot have one without the other.

I don't see anywhere that the context justifies adding "in his own strength" into these verses. It looks like something that was inserted in there to make it say what one wants it to say.

But suppose Romans 4:5 really does mean what you say. Then Rom 4:5 would be listing two requirements to have righteousness imputed:

1) don't do works in your own strength
2) believe in him who justifies the ungodly​

And the promise then is that, if you do those two things, righteousness will be imputed to you.

So are those the only two requirements? If a person does those two things, and lives like the devil, is he still counted as righteous?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Abraham trusted God with a purity of faith. He knew God was good, and his faith and trust in God was born out correctly - Abrahams faith was not misplaced and the Lord did indeed provide the sacrifice.



It's faith. Trusting in the goodness of God.

So when Abraham heard the command to kill his own son, you think it was right for him to set out to kill him.

If you understood that God was telling you to kill your son, would you set out to kill him?

 

[doubtingmerle]

There are two types of works which come from two different reasonings for moral acts. One morality is based on God and God alone, and works in accordance to the Will of God. (God wills it, so I will it, God loves them, so I love them)

The other morality is the morality of man. It works and does in accordance to what he thinks is right, and can be based on personal experience or a view of social necessity, but it is man-centered.

And if God commands you to kill your son, will you do it?

The first morality would indeed say to do it. The second morality would not.

I think the second morality is better.

 

[Hazelelponi]

So when Abraham heard the command to kill his own son, you think it was right for him to set out to kill him.

If you understood that God was telling you to kill your son, would you set out to kill him?

The issue is not the command. The issue was Abraham had absolute faith in the goodness of God, and that faith was born out.

That faith is what was counted as righteousness.

 

[Hazelelponi]

And if God commands you to kill your son, will you do it?

The first morality would indeed say to do it. The second morality would not.

I think the second morality is better.

No one is forcing you to follow Christ.

God himself became the sacrifice for sin, in His goodness He provided a sacrifice in our stead (just as a replacement was provided for Isaac) and took our punishment upon Himself.

No one forces you to accept what Christ did for you... you are free to take your own punishment for your own sin.

 

[doubtingmerle]

James says there will most certainly be some type of physical or outward proof of our faith, but that doesn't contradict with Grace and it doesn't add or subtract from salvation, it simply shows faiths existence. It outwardly shows the internal change wrought in you by God.

You may claim that there is an internal change that makes Christians better, but how do you know this claim is true? Social psychologists regularly study moral behavior. I know of no study that shows that a Christian has a better moral reaction than a non-Christian. So how can you make that claim?

 

[Hazelelponi]

You may claim that there is an internal change that makes Christians better, but how do you know this claim is true? Social psychologists regularly study moral behavior. I know of no study that shows that a Christian has a better moral reaction than a non-Christian. So how can you make that claim?

I dont think I'm better than anyone.

I think Christ is better than us all..

 

[doubtingmerle]

The issue is not the command. The issue was Abraham had absolute faith in the goodness of God, and that faith was born out.

If God commands to rape, murder and pillage, I would think those commands would be wrong. Would you?

 

[doubtingmerle]

No one is forcing you to follow Christ.

God himself became the sacrifice for sin, in His goodness He provided a sacrifice in our stead (just as a replacement was provided for Isaac) and took our punishment upon Himself.

No one forces you to accept what Christ did for you... you are free to take your own punishment for your own sin.

Understood.

But if God commanded you to kill your son, and was not forcing you, but was merely commanding it, would you kill your son?