Justification by Works?

[doubtingmerle]

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?

 

[Dave-W]

You need to read more context on both passages. They do not contradict.

 

[doubtingmerle]

You need to read more context on both passages. They do not contradict.

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?​

 

[TuxAme]

Justification is a process, and these passages are discussing initial justification (Romans) and ongoing justification (James) separately. Initial justification requires only faith, but ongoing justification requires both.

 

[Lost4words]

Faith, without works is dead. Even the devil has faith in God!

 

[dogs4thewin]

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?

Well, faith without works is dead, but moreover if you are saved ( which is by faith) the works will follow.

 

[Call me Nic]

Faith, without works is dead. Even the devil has faith in God!

Jesus didn’t die to save the devil from hell. He died to save men. Satan’s faith, (if he even had any as you presume) wouldn’t do anything for him.

 

[Call me Nic]

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?

Notice that one is a justification in the sight of other brothers, and one is a justification in the sight of God.

You can’t have faith without works and expect to be seen as a Christian to others who prove their faith by their works.

But you can have faith without works and expect to receive the free gift of salvation since the Spirit of God bears an inward witness of our belief.

 

[Oldmantook]

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?

When discussing "works" it is imperative to identify just what kind of works is being identified. In Rom 4:5, the context of verses 1-2 provides the answer: What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. This context indicates that "works of the flesh" (works done in our own strength; not of grace) is being identified - which do not justify.
On the other hand in Js 2:24, refers to works done out of obedience to God through the grace He provides. These are the kinds of works that are never condemned and instead as believers we were created to do according to Eph 2:10. Jesus judges the 7 Churches in Revelation by their works or lack of works as works are the test of the genuineness of one's faith.

 

[eleos1954]

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?

James 2:24

James is saying, not that a man is justified before God by his works, but that his claim to faith is shown to be genuine as he demonstrates the evidence of that claim of faith through his works.

The basis for justification is, not our obedience, but Christ's, for "through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. . . . By one Man's obedience many will be made righteous" Romans 5:18-19. He gives this obedience to those believers who are "justified freely by His grace" Romans 3:24. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" Titus 3:5.

Romans chapter 3 in it's entirely pretty well covers it - The Righteousness of God Through Faith

 

[Lost4words]

Paul, like the other Apostles had faith in Jesus but, it was faith 'with' works as was evident by their ministry.

 

[Tree of Life]

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?

Paul's and James' statements ultimately cohere. There is a superficial contradiction but a deep coherence. This is seen when one notices that Paul and James are answering different questions. Paul is talking about how a sinful person (whose best works are tainted by sin) can be accounted righteous by a holy God. Paul says - "only by a gracious gift of righteousness received by faith." James is exploring the nature of true faith. James asks: "What if one says he believes but does not strive to obey the Lord? Does that kind of faith save him?" James answers by saying that true, justifying faith will also manifest itself in obedience.

 

[Call me Nic]

When discussing "works" it is imperative to identify just what kind of works is being identified. In Rom 4:5, the context of verses 1-2 provides the answer: What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. This context indicates that "works of the flesh" (works done in our own strength; not of grace) is being identified - which do not justify.
On the other hand in Js 2:24, refers to works done out of obedience to God through the grace He provides. These are the kinds of works that are never condemned and instead as believers we were created to do according to Eph 2:10. Jesus judges the 7 Churches in Revelation by their works or lack of works as works are the test of the genuineness of one's faith.

You’re twisting scripture.

Abraham was the physical forefather of the Jews, who were the circumcision. Taking the entire context of chapter 3 into consideration, Paul was making the point that both the physical descendants and the non physical are justified by faith, irrespective of works.

The passage in James is speaking to a person’s works in comparison to that of another person. A person is seen as justified before another by works, because others cannot see faith unless it is demonstrated.

However God can see a person’s faith without works.

 

[Oldmantook]

You’re twisting scripture.

Abraham was the physical forefather of the Jews, who were the circumcision. Taking the entire context of chapter 3 into consideration, Paul was making the point that both the physical descendants and the non physical are justified by faith, irrespective of works.

The passage in James is speaking to a person’s works in comparison to that of another person. A person is seen as justified before another by works, because others cannot see faith unless it is demonstrated.

However God can see a person’s faith without works.

Nope. Works of the flesh which is EXACTLY identified in Rom 4:1 do not save. Do works done in your own flesh/strength save you? Of course not. Elsewhere in Romans - chapt. 3 - Paul does refer to works of the law - which also do not save.

You interpretation of James tortures the text. Just exactly where is James "speaking to a person’s works in comparison to that of another person? "Since when are we JUSTIFIED by comparing our works to another person's? I suggest you follow your own advice and not twist Scripture.

 

[Call me Nic]

Nope. Works of the flesh which is EXACTLY identified in Rom 4:1 do not save. Do works done in your own flesh/strength save you? Of course not. Elsewhere in Romans - chapt. 3 - Paul does refer to works of the law - which also do not save.

You make no sense at all. The works of the flesh are listed in Galatians 5:19-21.

Galatians 5:19-21 "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Yet the scripture says in Romans 4:1-2, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." And if you're saying that those works in that passage are referring to the "works of the flesh," then you're saying that Abraham was full of fornication, adultery, strife, sedition, envying, heresies, murders, drunkenness, and revellings. Of course a man isn't justified by those, because that is a list of grievous sins. Since you don't know what you're talking about, I'm going to assume that you mean "works of the law" which are the holy commandments we keep as given by God. However, the works of the law do not save, either, because Paul says that no flesh shall be justified by keeping the law (Romans 3:19-20).

So, yes, you're twisting scripture. Paul says in Romans 3 that the circumcision (the physical people of Abraham) have an advantage because they were delivered the oracles of God (the scriptures); but Paul goes on to prove in Romans 4 that Abraham was saved before he was ever even circumcised (Romans 4:9-10), showing that faith alone saves.

You interpretation of James tortures the text. Just exactly where is James "speaking to a person’s works in comparison to that of another person? "Since when are we JUSTIFIED by comparing our works to another person's? I suggest you follow your own advice and not twist Scripture.

So then lets take this argument to James. James says in chapter 2, verse 21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" So this work supposedly justified Abraham in the sight of God right? Except, in Genesis 15:6, Abraham had believed God and received righteousness from him. So Abraham was already saved BEFORE he offered his son Isaac upon the altar, BECAUSE ISAAC WASN'T EVEN BORN YET. You should know this, but you don't, because you twist scripture, blinding your own heart.

Are you going to argue that Abraham was somehow re-saved, or re-justified, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? No, his works simply demonstrated his faith (James 2:24).

 

[Not David]

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?

The Apostles didn't believe in Justification by Faith Alone, neither by Works of the Jewish Law, but by Faith combine with obedience.

 

[Lost4words]

Abraham had faith, but, it was in works that it was shown. How? By believing in God so much that he was willing to sacrifice his only son. It was by 'works' that he took his son on that journey to the mountain and placed him on the altar.

Faith and works go hand in hand. Faith without works, as proven by Abraham, is dead!

 

[doubtingmerle]

The Apostles didn't believe in Justification by Faith Alone, neither by Works of the Jewish Law, but by Faith combine with obedience.

So if a man has faith and doesn't do works of obedience, he won't make it?

That's odd, because Romans 4:5 say his faith is counted for righteousness, even if he does not work.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Abraham had faith, but, it was in works that it was shown. How? By believing in God so much that he was willing to sacrifice his only son. It was by 'works' that he took his son on that journey to the mountain and placed him on the altar.

Faith and works go hand in hand. Faith without works, as proven by Abraham, is dead!

Uh, taking your son with the intention of killing him is a bad work, yes? Abraham's faith was dead unless he does the bad work of setting out with the intention of killing his son? That makes no sense.

If faith without works is dead, why does Romans 4:5 say the man in that position is justified?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Paul's and James' statements ultimately cohere. There is a superficial contradiction but a deep coherence. This is seen when one notices that Paul and James are answering different questions. Paul is talking about how a sinful person (whose best works are tainted by sin) can be accounted righteous by a holy God. Paul says - "only by a gracious gift of righteousness received by faith." James is exploring the nature of true faith. James asks: "What if one says he believes but does not strive to obey the Lord? Does that kind of faith save him?" James answers by saying that true, justifying faith will also manifest itself in obedience.

And according to Paul, a person can be accounted righteous before God without working, yes? So according to Paul that kind of faith saves him, yes?