Justification by Works?

[Lost4words]

Uh, taking your son with the intention of killing him is a bad work, yes? Abraham's faith was dead unless he does the bad work of setting out with the intention of killing his son? That makes no sense.

If faith without works is dead, why does Romans 4:5 say the man in that position is justified?

Interpretation.

 

[doubtingmerle]

Paul, like the other Apostles had faith in Jesus but, it was faith 'with' works as was evident by their ministry.

What if Paul had faith without works? According to Romans 4:5, he would have still been justified, yes?

 

[Lost4words]

Matthew 25:40-45

‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

Works.

 

[doubtingmerle]

James 2:24

James is saying, not that a man is justified before God by his works, but that his claim to faith is shown to be genuine as he demonstrates the evidence of that claim of faith through his works.

The basis for justification is, not our obedience, but Christ's, for "through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. . . . By one Man's obedience many will be made righteous" Romans 5:18-19. He gives this obedience to those believers who are "justified freely by His grace" Romans 3:24. "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us" Titus 3:5.

Romans chapter 3 in it's entirely pretty well covers it - The Righteousness of God Through Faith

One would think that a person with faith might have free will to choose not to work. Do you lose your free will after you get faith?

 

[doubtingmerle]

Justification is a process, and these passages are discussing initial justification (Romans) and ongoing justification (James) separately. Initial justification requires only faith, but ongoing justification requires both.

Ah, so you get a free trial membership, but you better work if you want to keep it?

 

[Tree of Life]

And according to Paul, a person can be accounted righteous before God without working, yes? So according to Paul that kind of faith saves him, yes?

No. Paul also teaches that true faith produces obedience and love.

 

[doubtingmerle]

When discussing "works" it is imperative to identify just what kind of works is being identified. In Rom 4:5, the context of verses 1-2 provides the answer: What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. This context indicates that "works of the flesh" (works done in our own strength; not of grace) is being identified - which do not justify.
On the other hand in Js 2:24, refers to works done out of obedience to God through the grace He provides. These are the kinds of works that are never condemned and instead as believers we were created to do according to Eph 2:10. Jesus judges the 7 Churches in Revelation by their works or lack of works as works are the test of the genuineness of one's faith.

Ah, so to him that worketh not in the spirit, his faith is not counted for righteousness?

Maybe Paul could have made that a wee bit clearer.

 

[doubtingmerle]

No. Paul also teaches that true faith produces obedience and love.

Ah, so maybe Romans 4:5 could have said, "To him that works not but believes, his faith will make the bum get out of bed and start working?"

Paul seems to have forgotten to include the fine print in his promise.

 

[Oldmantook]

You make no sense at all. The works of the flesh are listed in Galatians 5:19-21.

Indeed they are. They are works of the the SINFUL NATURE. It is quite apparent that you are not even aware of all the types of "works" referred to in the scriptures. You might want to study this as it leads to your apparent confusion. Your confusion stems from not distinguishing good works which believers are called to do (Eph 2:10) from works of the Law (Rom 3:20, 28; Gal 2:16) and works done in our own strength (Eph 2:9; 2 Tim 1:9) which the scriptures condemn. These 3 types of works are often equated with each other so obedience to God is often mislabeled and mischaracterized as "works-based salvation" despite the requirement of obedience specified for eternal life in Heb 5:9. Finally, there are works of the flesh which describe sins that all believers should avoid from engaging in (Gal 5:19-21).

Yet the scripture says in Romans 4:1-2, "For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God." And if you're saying that those works in that passage are referring to the "works of the flesh," then you're saying that Abraham was full of fornication, adultery, strife, sedition, envying, heresies, murders, drunkenness, and revellings.

Nope - because of my above answer. You fail to distinguish between the different types of works that the scriptures themselves differentiate.

So, yes, you're twisting scripture. Paul says in Romans 3 that the circumcision (the physical people of Abraham) have an advantage because they were delivered the oracles of God (the scriptures); but Paul goes on to prove in Romans 4 that Abraham was saved before he was ever even circumcised (Romans 4:9-10), showing that faith alone saves.

Abraham was saved because he believed AND his actions demonstrated his genuine belief as he also OBEYED God. One must both believe (Jn 3:16) and obey (Heb 5:9).

So then lets take this argument to James. James says in chapter 2, verse 21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" So this work supposedly justified Abraham in the sight of God right? Except, in Genesis 15:6, Abraham had believed God and received righteousness from him. So Abraham was already saved BEFORE he offered his son Isaac upon the altar, BECAUSE ISAAC WASN'T EVEN BORN YET. You should know this, but you don't, because you twist scripture, blinding your own heart.

Are you going to argue that Abraham was somehow re-saved, or re-justified, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? No, his works simply demonstrated his faith (James 2:24).

The simple answer is that because of Abraham's faith, it was accounted to him as righteousness. Faith consists of both believing and obeying. One cannot claim to believe and yet continue to disobey God. After all, don't we repent and seek not to continue to sin or do we use grace as a license to continue in sin? Abraham wasn't perfectly obedient but he persisted in following God. So must we. Our good works are the evidence of genuine faith rather than the cause of it - something that you are oblivious to.
According to your warped view, Jesus is wrong to judge the 7 Churches in Revelation by their works, or lack thereof. I prefer to believe Jesus.

 

[Oldmantook]

Ah, so to him that worketh not in the spirit, his faith is not counted for righteousness?

Maybe Paul could have made that a wee bit clearer.

it would be a wee bit clearer if you bothered to cite your verse? not hard to do since more than one verse addresses this subject. so can you provide a wee bit more clarity?

 

[Tree of Life]

Ah, so maybe Romans 4:5 could have said, "To him that works not but believes, his faith will make the bum get out of bed and start working?"

Paul seems to have forgotten to include the fine print in his promise.

You have to appreciate Paul's context and the particular questions he is seeking to answer in Romans 4:5. It seems you're unwilling to attempt this?

 

[Soyeong]

James 2:24 says, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only."

But Romans 4:5 says, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness."

So which way is it? If one believes but does not work, is he justified or isn't he?

In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is death and that he would show his faith by his works. In other words, if someone were looking at James and trying to deduce whether he was someone who was justified, then the way to do that would be by looking at his works. So James 2:24 is not speaking about the way to become justified, but about the way for us to see that someone is justified.

In Romans 4:4-5, it is speaking about someone who works to earn their wages, so the point he was making in verse 5 is that we are not counted as righteous because we have earned it, but by faith. While it was true that Abraham believed God, so was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he didn't hesitate to obey God's command to offer Isaac, so what we believe and how that belief is expressed through our actions are two aspects of the same thing. In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so we are not justified by our obedience, but rather the same grace and faith by which we are justified also requires our obedience.

 

[eleos1954]

One would think that a person with faith might have free will to choose not to work. Do you lose your free will after you get faith?

Matthew 5:16

In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.

John 6:28-29

Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing the works of God?” Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.”

Philippians 2:13

For it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Titus 3:5

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

When one sincerely receives Christ, one has asked Him to come into their life and change them and so He does ... through the Holy Spirit and through study of His word and this continues throughout the lifetime of that person. Because of these changes we will have good works. We asked Him to work in us.

Phillippians 1

6 being confident of this, that He who began a good work in you will continue to perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

Now can a person change their mind and not want Christ in their life? Yep. God respects everyone's decisions ... He don't force himself on anyone. So, your will/choice to allow Him to work in your life or not .... is always there.

 

[doubtingmerle]

it would be a wee bit clearer if you bothered to cite your verse? not hard to do since more than one verse addresses this subject. so can you provide a wee bit more clarity?

I quoted it in the OP: Romans 4:5 "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness."

 

[doubtingmerle]

You have to appreciate Paul's context and the particular questions he is seeking to answer in Romans 4:5. It seems you're unwilling to attempt this?

I am quite willing to consider the context. What about the context of Rom 4:5 makes it not mean that those that believe and not work are still counted as righteous?

 

[doubtingmerle]

In James 2:17-18, he said that faith without works is death and that he would show his faith by his works. In other words, if someone were looking at James and trying to deduce whether he was someone who was justified, then the way to do that would be by looking at his works. So James 2:24 is not speaking about the way to become justified, but about the way for us to see that someone is justified.

​

Some people do good works and don't believe.

Some people believe and don't do many good works.

So how can good works be used to determine whether somebody has faith?

​

While it was true that Abraham believed God, so was counted as righteous, it is also true that Abraham believed God, so he didn't hesitate to obey God's command to offer Isaac, so what we believe and how that belief is expressed through our actions are two aspects of the same thing.

Ah, but if someone thinks he hears God telling him to kill his son, he should hesitate, shouldn't he? What can be good about setting out to kill your son, just because someone commands you to?

 

[Not David]

So if a man has faith and doesn't do works of obedience, he won't make it?

That's odd, because Romans 4:5 say his faith is counted for righteousness, even if he does not work.

Initial faith is necessary.

 

[Not David]

Some people do good works and don't believe.

Some people believe and don't do many good works.

So how can good works be used to determine whether somebody has faith?

​

Ah, but if someone thinks he hears God telling him to kill his son, he should hesitate, shouldn't he? What can be good about setting out to kill your son, just because someone commands you to?

God is the one who judges, that's why we pray for his mercy.

 

[Not David]

What if Paul had faith without works? According to Romans 4:5, he would have still been justified, yes?

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:27

Paul is practically saying that if he does not endure, he will be reprobated.

 

[Not David]

I am quite willing to consider the context. What about the context of Rom 4:5 makes it not mean that those that believe and not work are still counted as righteous?

Romans 8:13
"For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live."
Don't try to define everything looking at only one verse.