Justification by Faith & Works

[Bible Highlighter]

I understand what you are saying. Understand that we are saying very similar. Nothing I said indicated that I believe we have carte blanc to continue sinning the same sin over and over, however, if you read the difference between and shall be less in heaven vs and shall burn in the lake of fire for eternity you will see that saved sinners are still in heaven. They will be less, but in heaven none the less.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is vindicated, substantiated, evidenced by works (James 2:14-24).

*Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.* (Romans 3:24-28)

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not by the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies is never alone (solitary, unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine (James 2:14-24). *Perfect Harmony*

Believers are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace (i.e. Jesus Christ). It is why a person who comes to Jesus for the first time can have an assurance of salvation (Without doing any kind of work). Initial and ultimate salvation is a gift from God (Ephesians 2:8-9). We are not ultimately saved by works of righteousness we have done alone without God's mercy (Titus 3:5). For even if a believer were to stumble into sin, do they get clean by doing another work? No. They get clean by confessing their sins to Jesus (1 John 2:1) (1 John 1:9) and they ask Jesus to help them to overcome their sin (or to forsake it) (Matthew 26:41) (Romans 13:14) (John 15:5). But make no mistake, Scripture is also abundantly clear in that it teaches we are saved by "works of faith" after we are saved by God's grace, too. Simply click on the following spoiler button to check out the verses.

Spoiler

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

There are five things (as a whole) in the Bible that people are not getting when they read Paul, and thus they easily misunderstand him in justifying a false "sin and still be saved" or "Belief Alone" type gospel (Which is no doubt appealing because it means that a person does not have to change their life all that much and they can live for themselves instead of the Lord). But Jesus says, "Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do the things which I say? (Luke 6:46) (NHEB).

Here are the 5 things (as a whole) in Scripture that your average Christian does not understand when they read Paul:

#1. The Bible teaches that there is a change of the Law (Hebrews 7:12); So when Paul talks about the "Law" (generically), he is referring to the Torah, i.e. the Old Law (or the many laws given to Moses and Israel) and not the commandments given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers (i.e. the New Law or New Testament Law). See post #103 below to learn more.

#2. Paul was fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is Law Alone Salvationism without God's grace); A certain sect of Jews were trying to deceive some Christians into thinking they had to first be circumcised in order to be saved. This was a heresy that was clearly addressed at the Jerusalem council (See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). Paul also addressed this problem; Paul said to the Galatians that if you seek to be circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing (Galatians 5:2), and then Paul mentions how if you seek to be justified by the Law, you have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:4). This "law" is the Torah because circumcision is not a part of the commands given to us by Jesus and His followers. See post #105 below to learn more.

#3. An Understanding on the Pharisee's false beliefs according to the Bible:

A. Christian Belief Alone Proponents (or those who think they can abide in some kind of sin on some level and still be saved) do not understand that the Pharisees sometimes ignored God's grace like in the Parable of the Tax Collector and the Pharisee (Luke 18:9-14) and this was not at the expense of upholding basic morality. For in this parable, the problem of the Pharisee is that he was not crying out to God for forgiveness of his sins like the tax collector was doing. So the Pharisee needed to get his heart right with God first. In short, the Pharisee was making salvation all about works with no emphasis on God's grace as the entrance gate and foundation of his faith. Hence, why Paul fought against "Works Alone Salvationism" without God's grace. But what they fail to realize is that Jesus was not endorsing the tax collector to continue in his sin the rest of his life by merely paying lip service because Jesus also told two people to "sin no more" (See John 5:14, and John 8:11).

B. Some (not all) Christian Belief Alone Proponents (or those who believe they can abide in sin on some level and still be saved) think that the Pharisees kept the letter of the Law or they kept the Law perfectly and this was their problem. They say that the Pharisees kept the letter of the Law but not the spirit of the Law. However, these kinds of statements are not true. For Jesus said that the problem of the Pharisees was that they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy (See Matthew 23:23, Luke 11:42). So Jesus had a problem with the Pharisees not keeping the Law; And Paul says if any man does not agree with the words of Jesus Christ, and the doctrine according to godliness, they are proud and they know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4). James 4:6 says God resists the proud, and gives grace to the humble.​

#4. The Bible teaches that sin can separate us from God from Matthew to Revelation (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8).

#5. The Bible teaches that obedience to God's commands is tied to eternal life from Matthew to Revelation (See Matthew 19:17-19) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 1:7) (1 John 3:23) (Hebrews 5:9) (Revelation 22:14).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The Old Law is No More - The Law has changed:

God's moral laws came into existence for man and would forever exist for him after the Fall of Adam and Eve (after they received the knowledge of good and evil). A Moral Law is any law telling you to do good without a specific law telling you that such a thing is so (See Romans 2:14). These moral laws existed before the Law of Moses.

In the New Covenant (or New Testament) these Moral Laws (like: “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” Do not covet,” “Do not commit adultery,” etc.) are repeated from the 613 laws within the Law of Moses and they still in effect (i.e. They have been carried over into the New Testament). However, the Old Testament Law of Moses as a whole or package deal is no more (contractually speaking). Ceremonial commands: Things like the commands on circumcision, animal sacrifices, the Saturday Sabbath, etc. are no longer binding under the New Covenant. This is because the written Law given to Israel is no longer in effect (as a whole). How so?


Here are a list of verses (showing us the Old Law is no more):

7 "But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious." (2 Corinthians 3:7-11).

“But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.” (2 Corinthians 3:14).

"When God speaks of a "new" covenant, it means he has made the first one obsolete. It is now out of date and will soon disappear." (Hebrews 8:13) (NLT).

”Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.” (Romans 7:4).

"But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter." (Romans 7:6).

"Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;" (Colossians 2:14).

20 "Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
22 Which all are to perish with the using; ) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."
(Colossians 2:20-23).

“By abolishing in His [own crucified] flesh the enmity [caused by] the Law with its decrees and ordinances [which He annulled]; that He from the two might create in Himself one new man [one new quality of humanity out of the two], so making peace.” (Ephesians 2:15) (AMPC).

"The old [former] rule [commandment; regulation] is now set aside [nullified; abolished], because it was weak and useless [ineffective]." (Hebrews 7:18) (EXB).

9 “Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.” (Hebrews 9:9-10).

16 “For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.” (Hebrews 9:16-17).

”And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament…” (Hebrews 9:15).

27 “And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it;
28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.” (Matthew 26:27-28).

50 “Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; “ (Matthew 27:20-51).

8 “Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;
9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second.” (Hebrews 10:8-9).

“And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:1).

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.” (Acts of the Apostles 15:5).

“Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment” (Acts of the Apostles 15:24).

28 "For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well." (Acts of the Apostles 15:28-29).


The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:

"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:"
(Colossians 2:16).


So it appears things have changed.

This makes sense because Hebrews 7:12 says the Law has changed.

"For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law." (Hebrews 7:12).

“For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.” (John 1:17).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Paul was fighting against Circumcision Salvationism:

This heresy was addressed at the Jerusalem council:

1. Acts of the Apostles 15:1 says, “And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.”
2. Acts of the Apostles 15:5 says, But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.”
3. Acts of the Apostles 15:24 says, “Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:”

Here are the verses by Paul showing that he was fighting against Circumcision Salvation:

1. Galatians 2:3 says, “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:”
   
   
2. Galatians 5:2 says, “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.”
   
   
3. Galatians 5:6 says, “For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.”
   
   
4. Galatians 6:15 (NLT) says, “It doesn't matter whether we have been circumcised or not. What counts is whether we have been transformed into a new creation.”
   
   
5. 1 Corinthians 7:18-19 says, 18 For instance, a man who was circumcised before he became a believer should not try to reverse it. And the man who was uncircumcised when he became a believer should not be circumcised now. (NLT) 19 “Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.” (NASB)
   
   
6. Romans 2:28-29 says, “For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.”
   
   
7. Romans 3:1 says, “What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?”
   
   
8. Romans 4:9-12 says, ”9 “Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also: 12 And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.”
   
   
9. Acts of the Apostles 21:21 says, “And they are informed of you, that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.”

In other words, if a person says that they FIRST have to be circumcised to be saved, they are saying God's grace, i.e. Jesus Christ by faith is no longer effective or required. They are not making Jesus the foundation of their faith, but they are making circumcision the foundation of their faith. This is why Paul spoke in the way that he did against the Law and said we are saved by God's grace through faith and not of works (i.e. Works Alone). This does not mean Paul was against the necessity of works of faith after a person was saved by God's grace (See Ephesians 2:10, Romans 8:13, Titus 1:16, 1 Timothy 6:3-4).

 

[bobk]

After reading 6 pages of responses to my original question, it's obvious that many people on here have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Bible. Justification and salvation are two different terms and are not to be used interchangeably. Justification is a singular event that occurs when you are saved by Jesus. At that point, you go from a state of injustice to a state justice, thereby removing the burden of original sin and purifying the believer. Salvation refers to the ongoing work of the person that is justified as he conforms his life to the image of Christ.

Justification is an instantaneous event and salvation is a process. Justification does not require good deeds or works, but salvation does.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

After reading 6 pages of responses to my original question, it's obvious that many people on here have a fundamental misunderstanding of the Bible. Justification and salvation are two different terms and are not to be used interchangeably. Justification is a singular event that occurs when you are saved by Jesus. At that point, you go from a state of injustice to a state justice, thereby removing the burden of original sin and purifying the believer. Salvation refers to the ongoing work of the person that is justified as he conforms his life to the image of Christ.

Justification is an instantaneous event and salvation is a process. Justification does not require good deeds or works, but salvation does.

I respectfully disagree. Most today have an unbiblical view of repentance. They either think repentance means "a change of mind" or "forsaking sin," when this is clearly not the case (according to the Bible). Some even erroneously think "repentance" is merely to have a belief on Jesus, too. Here is...


A Biblical Case For Repentance:

At the heart, I believe the Bible teaches that repentance means, "Asking God for forgiveness" (Which of course naturally then leads to the "fruits of repentance", i.e. obedience to the Lord):

Important Note: While I may believe "Repentance" does involve to a certain degree a "change of mind" (like a person changing their mind about their old life of sin), I do not think "Repentance" exclusively means a “change of mind.”

Anyways, here are my ten points using Scripture showing that "repentance" means "asking God for forgiveness of sin."

#1. Acts 2:38,
The New Living Translation says in Acts 2:38 to "repent of your sins."
Douay Reheims says in Acts 2:38 to "Do penance."
New Life Version says in Acts 2:38 to "Be sorry for your sins"

#2. Luke 17:3 says, "Take heed to yourselves: If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him." This doesn't make any sense if "repent" means believe in Jesus (as some teach) or to have a change of mind about sin (as others teach) or to exclusively forsake sin. Yes, we are to forsake sin as a part of repentance but that comes later after repentance (Which is to ask God for forgiveness of our sin). For how can we reconcile with a brother if we do not say we are sorry vs. just going on about life as if we did nothing wrong?

#3. Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).​

#4. Matthew 3:6 (which then lines up with Matthew 3:8). Also, in Mark 1:4-5, it says John preached the "baptism of repentance" for the remission of sins (verse 4), and it then defines this "baptism of repentance" by saying they confessed their sins when they were baptized (verse 5).

#5. We see in Acts of the Apostles 8:22 a clear example of Peter telling Simon to "repent" of his wickedness in trying to pay for the Holy Spirit. Peter is telling Simon to make a prayer towards God. For Peter says that he should pray that God might forgive him. In other words, Peter is telling Simon to repent of a one time event of wickedness by way of prayer to GOD. This only makes sense if "repent" means to "ask for forgiveness."

#6. Ezekiel 14:6 says,
"Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols;" Repent makes the most sense here if a person is asking God for forgiveness by way of prayer instead of a person just believing in God. Naturally a person believes in God as their Savior if they are planning on forsaking their idols.

#7. We see repentance is the topic of discussion in Luke 15 (Luke 15:6) (Luke 15:10); This is then followed up by the "Parable of the Prodigal Son" with the son desiring to be reconciled with his father. We learn the WAY the Prodigal Son desired to be reconciled with his father when he said,

"I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee, And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants." (Luke 15:18-19).​

In other words, the Prodigal Son was seeking forgiveness. This ties into the point of repentance in Luke 15:6 and Luke 15:10.

#8. Luke 10:13 says,
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes." This rules out the theory that repentance is exclusively forsaking sin. Granted, forsaking sin always follow true repentance (Asking God for forgiveness of one's sins) but forsaking sin is not repentance. The word "repented" here is describing a one time event because they "repented", sitting in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:6 we learn that the King of Nineveh sat in sackcloth and ashes. In Jonah 3:8, the King of Nineveh tells people to put on sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God (i.e. repentance): and then turn from their evil way (i.e. the fruits of repentance).

#9. John the Baptist says we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Luke 3:8). Fruits are deeds (or obedience to God). How can repentance be the same thing as the fruit? Is the fruit the same thing as the tree?

#10. Jeremiah 8:6 says, "I hearkened and heard, but they spake not aright: no man repented him of his wickedness, saying, What have I done? every one turned to his course, as the horse rusheth into the battle." Here we see the word "repented of wickedness" tied with the words, "What have I done?" This is an acknowledgement of one's sin to God as a part of asking His forgiveness.


Notable Additional Verses that Deal with Repentance
(But They Do Not Use The Word "Repent" or "Repentance"):

"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved." (Romans 10:13).

13 "And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. (Luke 18:13-14).

Proverbs 28:13 says whosoever confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

@bobk

The problem with denying Justification by Faith (as the foundation of our salvation) is that you are saying you are not initially saved or ultimately saved by Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. Yes, we need Sanctification (Holy living) as a part of the salvation process, but to deny that we are ultimately saved by Christ is to deny Jesus Christ and what He has done for us. How else can we agree with Ephesians 2:8-9 and Titus 3:5 if such is not the case?

In my opinion, it seems like you went to the other wrong extreme end of the spectrum. It sounds like you made law and not grace the foundation of your faith. However, no man can lay any other foundation but Jesus Christ. We are initially saved by calling upon Jesus for the forgiveness of our sins (Romans 10:13). We are ultimately saved by His mercy and grace through our continued belief in Him as our Savior (and or at times confessing our sins to Him on rare occasion) (See 1 John 2:1, 1 John 1:9).

Believe on the name of Jesus; For even those who believe on his name, He also gave them power to become the sons of God (See: John 1:12).

 

[timothyu]

Justification is a singular event that occurs when you are saved by Jesus. At that point, you go from a state of injustice to a state justice, thereby removing the burden of original sin and purifying the believer.

Referring to Jesus opening the door to the Kingdom?

For the repentant of the adversarial self serving ways of man which oppose God's will, in favour of loving neighbour as self?

 

[Oldmantook]

It was a little confusing on their website to emphasize speaking in tongues on the main page (among the other topics). It should be asked as a question instead of it being made as a statement.

I skimmed their article on this point, so I misunderstood their statement of faith on tongues. So my apologies. They appear to be open to the idea of speaking in tongues, but they do not see it as evidence of the fulness of the Spirit.

Their statement of faith says:

"So while we recognize the gifts of the Holy Spirit as taught in Scripture to be valid gifts for the church today, no particular gift or gifts are the necessary or required evidence of the fullness of the Holy Spirit, nor are they considered as the evidence of Christian maturity."​

Where I disagree with them on is this part:

"Speaking in tongues is referred to in scripture both in corporate and private worship."
​

I believe 1 Corinthians 14 is teaching corporate prayer only and not both corporate and private prayer.

So do they encourage praying in tongues in private? I do not know that answer. If they do, I do not think that is biblical.

They do not believe in Cessationism (like myself), but they appear to be open to being Charismatic but they are not practicing Charimatic church that I am aware of. I am 1% open that I could be wrong about Cessationism (For I do not want to speak against God, just in case I am wrong; But I lean towards Cessationism, because there are many verses that suggest it, and what miracles we see in the churches today is not like what we read about in the early church).

Sorry, I do not mean to be overly critical, it is just that I tend to be more cautious (than accepting) in these last days. For more times than I can count, I have been disappointed by other believers in what they believe, teach and practice. They appear to be a fine church, but I would disagree with them if they encouraged private speaking in tongues.

You are right to be cautious, especially now days as we see the church fall into deception over all kinds of crazy things; some very subtle and others quite outrageous. That is why I left the institutional church and never returned. Yes the Missionary Church denomination is open to the gifts but they do not necessarily practice the gifts although that may have changed since I left many years ago. At the time they were conservative though a few churches practiced the gifts. They don't have denominational seminaries but they do have Taylor University, formerly Fort Wayne Bible College in Indiana but I don't know what they teach regarding tongues. The one thing I like about the denomination is that despite tending to be conservative, they do not believe in eternal security which is the same view that I hold to.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are right to be cautious, especially now days as we see the church fall into deception over all kinds of crazy things; some very subtle and others quite outrageous. That is why I left the institutional church and never returned. Yes the Missionary Church denomination is open to the gifts but they do not necessarily practice the gifts although that may have changed since I left many years ago. At the time they were conservative though a few churches practiced the gifts. They don't have denominational seminaries but they do have Taylor University, formerly Fort Wayne Bible College in Indiana but I don't know what they teach regarding tongues. The one thing I like about the denomination is that despite tending to be conservative, they do not believe in eternal security which is the same view that I hold to.

Interesting. Thank you for sharing. I also am against OSAS (as I am sure you are aware).

 

[jacks]

Some great comments on Faith/Works. For me the hard part is separating the two. (If we are talking about "works" being Christian conduct vs. following Jewish law.) If one truly has faith, than how can works not follow? (At least an attempt at good works.) Is it enough just to say "I have faith" fooling maybe not only others but yourself. (But not God.) How do we even know we have faith, if we don't at least attempt to act on it? In other words is it possible to have faith and not works? (Again I know we fail, but isn't true faith proved by attempting good works.)

I guess my comments are related to James 2:18-24:
18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without [a]your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is [c]dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made [d]perfect? 23 And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “Abraham believed God, and it was [e]accounted to him for righteousness.” And he was called the friend of God. 24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.

 

[timothyu]

Is it enough just to say "I have faith" fooling maybe not only others but yourself. (But not God.)

It is the only way those who reject the Gospel of the Kingdom in favour of the ways of mankind can justify their participation in a religion that sold out over 1700 years ago.
It is doing the will of God that would prevent them from defending and supporting the traditional self serving ways of mankind they love. They are not of those whom the world hates for their rejection of the world of man.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are right to be cautious, especially now days as we see the church fall into deception over all kinds of crazy things; some very subtle and others quite outrageous. That is why I left the institutional church and never returned. Yes the Missionary Church denomination is open to the gifts but they do not necessarily practice the gifts although that may have changed since I left many years ago. At the time they were conservative though a few churches practiced the gifts. They don't have denominational seminaries but they do have Taylor University, formerly Fort Wayne Bible College in Indiana but I don't know what they teach regarding tongues. The one thing I like about the denomination is that despite tending to be conservative, they do not believe in eternal security which is the same view that I hold to.

I am also against Free Will Baptism; They also believe in a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type gospel (Belief Alone-ism), but they do not believe in OSAS. Free Will Baptists do not believe in Eternal Security because they believe you can fall away by choosing to stop in believing in Jesus as your Savior.

However, they do not believe you can fall away due to abiding in unrepentant grievous sin (Which is at the heart of the problem of OSAS). At least, this is the case with those Free Will Baptists I have talked with on another Christian forum.

Side Note:

I was banned on this other Christian forum (Where there were a lot of Free Will Baptists) because they did not like me preaching against "Belief Alone-ism." This would be the 2nd time I was banned on a Christian forum (without any warnings) for preaching against a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type belief.

 

[Oldmantook]

I am also against Free Will Baptism; They also believe in a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type gospel (Belief Alone-ism), but they do not believe in OSAS. Free Will Baptists do not believe in Eternal Security because they believe you can fall away by choosing to stop in believing in Jesus as your Savior.

However, they do not believe you can fall away due to abiding in unrepentant grievous sin (Which is at the heart of the problem of OSAS). At least, this is the case with those Free Will Baptists I have talked with on another Christian forum.

Side Note:

I was banned on this other Christian forum (Where there were a lot of Free Will Baptists) because they did not like me preaching against "Belief Alone-ism." This would be the 2nd time I was banned on a Christian forum (without any warnings) for preaching against a "Sin and Still Be Saved" type belief.

As you know, it is extremely difficult for people to change their views on cherished doctrines. My view is that if someone can provide better scriptural support for a belief that is better than mine, than I'd better reconsider my own view. Iron sharpens iron. That's why I don't think people who hold opposing views should be banned unless they are disrespectful/obnoxious.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As you know, it is extremely difficult for people to change their views on cherished doctrines. My view is that if someone can provide better scriptural support for a belief that is better than mine, than I'd better reconsider my own view. Iron sharpens iron. That's why I don't think people who hold opposing views should be banned unless they are disrespectful/obnoxious.

Thank you for the kind words. I strive to be loving in respectful to the best of my ability. In the two cases I was banned, I do not believe there was any warrant to be banned (Especially without any warnings given). It is my prayer that those who banned may change; For I am wishing them nothing but good things to them in Jesus Christ.

 

[Major1]

Churches that are Sola Scriptura (or Bible alone) type Christian churches that believe works play a part in the salvation process are:

1. Christ’s Sanctified Holy Church: Christ's Sanctified Holy Church-Holiness unto the Lord
   
   
2. International Fellowship of Bible Churches International Fellowship of Bible Churches

Salvation Army also believes in the necessity of works for salvation, but they believe in other things that are unbiblical like the creating of military ranks, and the ignoring of baptism and the Lord's supper. The founder of the Salvation Army was a Free Mason. My wife had also seen a salvation army representative wearing a shirt with Free Masonry symbol on it. So I would steer clear of this group.

I must disagree. Sola Scriptura churches can not believe in "works" for salvation as that is not Biblical and play NO role in salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is either true or a lie...………
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

 

[bobk]

I must disagree. Sola Scriptura churches can not believe in "works" for salvation as that is not Biblical and play NO role in salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is either true or a lie...………
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

I respectfully disagree.

Mathew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I must disagree. Sola Scriptura churches can not believe in "works" for salvation as that is not Biblical and play NO role in salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is either true or a lie...………
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

In Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, and Romans 4:1-6, Paul is fighting against "Works ALONE Salvationism" and NOT "works of faith" that follows one's belief or faith in the Savior. His focus in these verses is in teaching that we are initially and ultimately saved by a belief in Jesus as our Savior. Proof?

In Romans 4: Abraham believed God and it was accounted to him as righteousness. He believed and it was accounted to him as righteousness (salvation). BUT.... Abraham had to also later show his belief by his works to maintain his salvation. How so? Genesis 17:14 says that if one is not circumcised, they are cut off from his people and broken God's covenant. So Abraham had to LATER be faithful by doing a work of faith as a part of the covenant.

In the book of Romans and Galatians, Paul is arguing against the heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which is trying to say that you had to FIRST be circumcised in order to be saved instead of making Jesus Christ the foundation of your faith by believing or receiving Him as your Savior) (To learn about the false heresy of "Circumcision Salvationism" that was trying to deceive Christians, see: Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24; Also see: Galatians 2:3, Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:6, Galatians 6:5, 1 Corinthians 7:18-19, Romans 2:28-29, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, Acts of the Apostles 21:21).

"Circumcision Salvationism" is the same thing as "Works ALONE Salvationism" because if one believes that circumcision is the entry gate to salvation, it is then the foundation of how one is saved and thus it would be "works" in how we would be saved and not grace. But this is false. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace through faith in Jesus Christ. Hence, why Paul talked the way that he did.

But there are many who twist the words of Paul today and think that he was referring to all law, or all forms of works (including "works of faith" that follow God's grace) when this is clearly not the case. For Jesus and His followers clearly teach that certain grievous sins can still separate a believer from God (Matthew 5:28-30) (Matthew 6:15) (Matthew 12:37) (Matthew 25:31-46) (Luke 9:62) (1 John 3:15) (Galatians 5:19-21) (Revelation 21:8); They also taught that keeping His commandments is a part of inheriting eternal life, too (Matthew 19:17) (Luke 10:25-28) (1 John 3:23) (Revelation 22:14-15).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I must disagree. Sola Scriptura churches can not believe in "works" for salvation as that is not Biblical and play NO role in salvation.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is either true or a lie...………
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Ephesians 1:4 says,
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love."

Ephesians 2:2-3 talk about how we were once in times past we were sinners (fulfilling the desires of the flesh). In other words, sin is a part of our old life and not our new life. Also, Ephesians 2:1 also says that we have been quickened. So Ephesians 2 is primarily talking about "Initial Salvation." For being quickened is a one time event. To be quickened means to be born again spiritually (Which can happen when we first seek forgiveness with the Lord). In fact, Ephesians 3:17 says, "That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love," (Which is a general call to all that a person needs to accept Christ, i.e. "Initial Salvation").

Verse 4 is talking about God's love from since the time of when the salvation of Christ appeared to all; For "God is rich in mercy" in the fact that He died upon the cross (paying the penalty for our sins - God's grace and mercy), and as a result: He is able to forgive us of our sins (mercy) when we first come to Him by seeking His forgiveness and or by seeking salvation from our sins by believing in Jesus as our Savior (Whereby we would want to follow Him and turn from sin). "His great love that he has loved us" was from eternity's past until now and forever. This love can be found in the Son and in accepting Him as our Savior. Verse 5: "Even when we were dead in our sins," as a part of our old life, God quickens us together with Christ when we come to him in faith (For Ephesians 2:8, says, "For by grace are ye saved through faith;"). For by grace are we saved. This is how our faith begins and this is the foundation of our faith. In fact, if we were to sin again, we do not do a good work to get clean, or forgiven, but we go to God's grace (See 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 2:1). Hence, why we are not saved by "Works Alone." We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But this does not negate the necessity of "works of faith" or Sanctification that is the next step or stage in the salvation process (See James 2:24, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, Romans 8:13, Matthew 19:17-19, Luke 10:25-28, Matthew 25:31-46).

 

[Albion]

I respectfully disagree.

Mathew 16:27 "For the Son of Man is going to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and WILL THEN REPAY EVERY MAN ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS.

The issue here is salvation. You are referring to rewards for those who ARE saved in the end. Yes, the good work that we do will be rewarded in heaven. That's scriptural. However, what it is that gets us TO heaven is another subject--the subject we have been discussing here. And it is only through Faith that we are saved, not Faith and Works jointly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The issue here is salvation. You are referring to rewards for those who ARE saved in the end. Yes, the good work that we do will be rewarded in heaven. That's scriptural. However, what it is that gets us TO heaven is another subject--the subject we have been discussing here. And it is only through Faith that we are saved, not Faith and Works jointly.

Not at all. Matthew 7 makes it clear that Jesus will cast out certain believers because they worked iniquity (sin) despite their doing wonderful works in his name.