Justification by Faith Defended!

discipler7 said:

Half faith.?

Saved by half faith in Christ and half faith in works.? Or half faith in someone other than Christ.?*sarcasm*

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Uh, James says he shows faith by his works (See James 2:18 cf. Hebrews 11). So works are a part of one’s faith.

redleghunter said:

As I noted in the other thread...Faith is not comatose unless someone is truly physically comatose.

Faith is indeed action, as the very word faith highly implies faithfulness. I don't think that is what's being argued here. What's being argued is whether or not our actions of faithfulness are accounted for our justification or even salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification).

If we are justified by the works of Christ alone and we are raised from the dead (glorified) by the power of God alone, why do we think sanctification is any different on Who the actor is?

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So there is some level of holiness required as a part of salvation?

112358 said:

So then, keeping the immediate context of at least a dozen, probably more (Galatians, James, Hebrews, Jude, etc.), scriptures we have beaten to death about Judaisers and those Christians who were being tempted to return to Judaism, were those Christians in the early church who left the Faith and returned to Judaism still sealed? Those who were "severed from Christ", "cut off", "fallen from grace"? Is it only Christians who have returned to Judaism that are described in this way?

Or are we back to "that's not Christians" again?

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I have never once said that those believers who were “troubled”, “hindered” and “bewitched” by false teaching we’re not true Christians. True Christians can indeed fall into error.

Why else would there be so many warnings given in Scripture regarding this very issue?

GodsGrace101 said:

James caused a bit of a problem in James 2:24
The reason is that he and Paul forgot to sit down and figure out some theology and how future generations would understand what they were saying.

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Most scholars put the book of James written by the half brother of Jesus Christ James the Just circa 48-50 AD. In the same timeframe 48-50 AD we see the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. There was no confusion after that council that one is saved by Grace through faith:

Acts 15: NASB
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”


The above is the historical context in which we must put the writings of Paul, Peter and James.

112358 said:

These things are all inextricably linked. You can’t separate any one of them from the others. None of them stand alone.

Saved by grace (free gift, unearned) through faith (belief proven through works). Faith is a law through which grace is administered. So is righteousness. Grace reigns, or rules, or runs, through righteousness. All of God’s commands are righteousness. None claiming to have earned grace, only claiming that these are the laws God established where grace resides, where it is to be found.

So no righteousness, no faith. No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation. None can be severed from the others.

I think people get too tripped up trying to discuss these ideas in isolation. They were never meant to be isolated in the Christian experience.

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Considering we are only saved by the Righteousness of Christ Jesus, I would agree you cannot separate His righteousness from His sovereign design of salvation.

Jason0047 said:

Please quote me the exact verse in James where he says we must keep Circumcision or the Old Testament Law of Moses. James talks about the Royal Law of loving your neighbor (which is the second greatest commandment given to us by Jesus Christ) (See James 2:8).

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I did not mention circumcision. I pointed out James gave examples of the OT moral law which still applies in taking care of the needy, orphans, widows etc. Jesus confirmed these Torah laws for the New Covenant in His Blood.

What I was pointing out to you was not everywhere where it says 'works' does it mean the Law of Moses when contrasted with saved by grace through faith.

amariselle said:

I have never once said that those believers who were “troubled”, “hindered” and “bewitched” by false teaching we’re not true Christians. True Christians can indeed fall into error.

Why else would there be so many warnings given in Scripture regarding this very issue?

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Why indeed! So if those who were "troubled", "hindered", "bewitched", "cut off", "fallen from grace", "severed from Christ", were found as such, how is it we should believe we can't be found as such also?
Hebrews 6:4-8

I thought your position was that those who have been sealed, who have been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, could NEVER fall away? What does fall away and "impossible to renew them again unto repentance" mean, except exactly what is says??

Doug Melven said:

I am in 100% agreement with you.
but there will be people who will not agree with you will take James 2 out of context to say we need works to be justified.

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I suggest it is clear that you do need “good works” to be justified; Romans 2:6-7 is crytal clear on this as are a number of other texts. This does not deny justification by faith - the two can be seen to be compatible if we understand that the good works are “evidence” that what really saves - faith - is genuine.

GodsGrace101 said:

Could I change your third paragraph around a bit?
No grace...not faith
No faith...no righteousness
No righteousness...no salvation

Also, the bible states very clearly that fornicators will not enter heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

(amariselle said; "Scripture also clearly states in regard to fornication and other evil acts, “such were some of you.)

Right.
And when they WERE, they were NOT headed for heaven.

Jesus said that those who DO NOT ABIDE in Him will be cut off, thrown away, and burned. That doesn't sound like heaven to me.

If Jesus said it, it must surely be true.
John 15:1-6

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ROMANS.10: = Israel Needs the Gospel
10 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.” 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).

8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Fornicators are those who disobey the Law = deemed by you as "no righteousness...no salvation" or "fornicators will not enter heaven".
....... But the Scripture at ROMANS.10 says that salvation is solely through Christ's righteousness, ie Christ's righteousness...salvation. Salvation is not through our righteousness or self-righteousness or righteousness of the Law, ie not righteousness...salvation. Eg no fornication = righteousness. Conversely, "no Christ's righteousness...no salvation", and not "no righteousness...no salvation".

To reconcile ROMANS.10 and 1CORINTHIANS.6, those who do not have Christ's righteousness will have no works of righteousness and will not inherit the kingdom of God.

IOW, no Christ's righteousness...no righteousness...no salvation. ...

ROMANS.1: = The Just Live by Faith
16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”

ROMANS.8: = There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.

GALATIANS.5: = Walking in the Spirit
16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. 24 And those who are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

MDC said:

Sola fide is pleading the merits of Christ as the only grounds for justification. Anything outside of this pleads mens works meritorious and the grounds for justification. And by doing so denies the gospel of Christ

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Not really. Paul is really very clear that it is the indwelling Spirit that is the engine that generates the good works.

So to say that we need “good works” is not necessarily to say that we can take personal credit for those works.

GodsGrace101 said:

What's the debate?
We are justified by faith, not by works.
Ephesians 2:8-9

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This text is deeply misunderstood. In context, the “works” that do not save are not general good works, they are the works of the Law of Moses that only the Jew can do.

Paul is not denying that good works are needed for justification, he is denying that justification is limited to Jews.

redleghunter said:

Considering we are only saved by the Righteousness of Christ Jesus, I would agree you cannot separate His righteousness from His sovereign design of salvation.

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I'll take common ground where I can find it. Are we also in agreement that our own will, choices, and actions, are part of His sovereign design of salvation?

Jason0047 said:

Verse 4 in the KJV says that the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us who not after the flesh (sin) but who walk after the Spirit.

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The NASB and KJV match. Don't see the issue. One is Modern English and one is Early Modern English.

Jason0047 said:

What is the righteousness of the Law?
It is loving your neighbor (Which is the equivalent of the Moral Law - See Romans 13:8-10). For if we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (See Galatians 5:16). What are the lusts of the flesh?

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19-21).

Romans 8:13 says, “For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.”
‭‭

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Pretty good quotes, but if we are after what Paul is preaching in Romans 8:3-4 we only need to continue in Romans 8. You quote a bit of it, but the context is important:

5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. 10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

12So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh— 13for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. 15For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!” 16The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, 17and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? 25But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it.


26In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; 27and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God.

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

31What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? 32He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? 33Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; 34who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. 35Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36Just as it is written,
“FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;
WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.”

37But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. 38For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, 39nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

GodsGrace101 said:

There are serious misunderstandings of scripture abounding in this thread... I've exegeted the above and will not do it again...but it does not mean what is posted above.

I came back to post this:
What Is the Meaning of, "Destruction of the Flesh," in 1 Corinthians 5:5?

Also, the bible states very clearly that fornicators will not enter heaven.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10

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Please clarify, you provided exegesis for 1 Corinthians 5:5 previously or are just endorsing what someone wrote at Christian Courier?

amariselle said:

I don’t listen to Calvin, actually, or any other man or woman. (I test what they say by Scripture, as we should all do) Eternal security is Biblical, it is not the invention of man.

The Gospel is simple, a little child can understand, and so it is that we must receive it, as Jesus plainly taught.

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Sorry A, I didn't mean to imply that you did (re Calvin).
I meant to say that the idea of eternal security or OSAS or perseverance of the saints was developed by him and those that came immediately after.

It did NOT exist before this. The idea was foreign to both the N.T. writers AND those that came immediately after them.

You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it.

This poses a problem even for those who claim that they take their teachings exclusively from Scripture, namely, “How could a doctrine this important–if true–remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history and, if Jesus comes back any time soon, for three quarters of all of Church history?”

Other important doctrines have been known all through Christian history. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it,that Jesus Christ was God. Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that Jesus Christ is fully man as well as fully God. And Christians always knew, even when heretics denied it, that they were saved purely by God’s grace.

So when it turns out that Christians never knew that true Christians can never fall away, and then suddenly 1500 years later someone starts claiming it, one has to ask who is conveying the true teaching of the apostles and who is teaching the heresy “Are All True Christians Predestined to Persevere?”

source: The Early Church believed in Once Saved, Always… oh, Wait, No They Didn’t!

(the above source is posted ONLY to show proof that OSAS did not exist prior to John Calvin)

redleghunter said:

Most scholars put the book of James written by the half brother of Jesus Christ James the Just circa 48-50 AD. In the same timeframe 48-50 AD we see the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15. There was no confusion after that council that one is saved by Grace through faith:

Acts 15: NASB
7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear? 11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”


The above is the historical context in which we must put the writings of Paul, Peter and James.

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I'm sorry, but you didn't understand my post.
Also, you're beating a dead horse to death.

redleghunter said:

Please clarify, you provided exegesis for 1 Corinthians 5:5 previously or are just endorsing what someone wrote at Christian Courier?

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I exegeted it previously.
This time I thought I'd post what someone else said, maybe with more authority.

We did, however, make the same comments.

redleghunter said:

As I noted in the other thread...Faith is not comatose unless someone is truly physically comatose.

Faith is indeed action, as the very word faith highly implies faithfulness. I don't think that is what's being argued here. What's being argued is whether or not our actions of faithfulness are accounted for our justification or even salvation (justification, sanctification, glorification).

If we are justified by the works of Christ alone and we are raised from the dead (glorified) by the power of God alone, why do we think sanctification is any different on Who the actor is?

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How are we to understand Matt 25 then? Jesus says nothing here about being judged by belief or trust, but by deeds.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

GodsGrace101 said:

We still have our free will to do so after salvation.

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What does the Bible have to say about human free will?

redleghunter said:

What does the Bible have to say about human free will?

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Simply, that we possess it.
Matthew 23:37 Luke 13:34
“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!..."