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Ever single person who has ever heard or read the account of Abraham offering his son, Issac, is aware of what he did and therefore knows he did indeed have true faith.
Also, remember that Abraham was declared righteous by faith in the sight of God 25 years before Issac was even born. Those who love to quote James to support works based salvation always seem to prefer conveniently skipping this verse:
And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. - James 2:23
Here are the verses from Romans 4:
1 What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
6 Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works...
Those verses speak for themselves, no one is justified to God by works.
So let me understand what you are suggesting here. You are saying that sinners can provide righteous acts to merit salvation from God? I hope you understand that Justification & Sanctification are distinct from each other. To place any works of the sinner in the Justification category, turns it into a legalistic salvation not based on Mercy or Grace, but on demands of the Law.
Justified by Faith
Galatians 2:15We ourselves are Jews by birth and not Gentile sinners; 16yet we know that a person is not justified by works of the law but through faith in Jesus Christ, so we also have believed in Christ Jesus, in order to be justified by faith in Christ and not by works of the law, because by works of the law no one will be justified.
Now understand we are talking about how a sinner is justified before a Holy God! What hangs over every sinner is the curse of the Law. So before anything else, this curse needs to be taken care of. But there is a major problem. No flesh will be justified through the law. Why is Paul preaching this? To drive sinners away from their own filthy rags of righteousness; or what they think are righteous works! To Christ who saves the ungodly (Romans 4:5). God does not Justify the Righteous, but the ungodly!!!! Think about that before you reply. Why does God justify the one who does NOT WORK, but the one who believes in God who justifies the ungodly! Why?
Yes, all believers can fall into this. But remember that Christ dies for the sins of believers too! As Graeme Goldsworthy once wrote, "Even believers need to hear the Gospel everyday".
James is preaching Antinomianism to them. They HAVE faith, but think they do not need works. True Faith in Christ produces works! This is what James is telling them. Why would James being making a contrast between Faith vs Faith with works, of they weren't believers already? James is admonishing them, and getting them back on track per se.
So according to you, Christ’s merits ALONE do not justify a sinner?
Wasn't it so that Abraham acted on his belief. If he hadn't acted on the belief, would the belief itself count him as righteous?
Abraham “acted on his belief” when he showed he was willing to offer Issac. However, God had counted Abraham righteous due to his believing the “promise” 25 years before Issac was even born.
What exactly do you agree to?I agree. Part of the issue may be understanding whose or Whose righteousness saves us.
When we look at it from that perspective we find we are Justified, set apart and sanctified and glorified by the righteousness of Christ in us.
“But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it—the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe” (Romans 3:21–22).
Half faith.?Well, I am not discounting that one needs to first half faith or belief in Jesus Christ to be saved (and that one must continue to believe in Jesus).
The first thing Abraham did was act in obedience to what he believed. That is works.
Gen 17
"23 Then Abraham took Ishmael his son, and all the servants who were born in his house and all who were bought with his money, every male among the men of Abraham’s household, and circumcised the flesh of their foreskin in the very same day, as God had said to him."
Do you think he would have been counted as righteous if he hadn't done that?
I was too tired last night. Sorry for my curt reply.I agree, thought there are some that are very clear on some of the outrageous beliefs they have, others, are in an area like you mention, while others don't quite know what to think because they have so much conflicting info coming a them, and that too is a problem.
But that is only half the story of salvation.LOVE is the standard for salvation....
and if it is Love this can only come from a long term relationsihp with Jesus Christ
James caused a bit of a problem in James 2:24Paul taught that we are justified by faith apart from works of the law- he didn't say that we are justified by faith alone (he doesn't use the word "alone", but "apart)- he said that justification can happen apart from works. Still, James in his epistle says that we are justified by works, not by faith alone. Yet, like Paul, he doesn't suggest that we are justified only one way. He makes it clear that both cause justification. Works are a sign of a true faith and cannot justify on their own- but neither does a dead faith (one without works) justify. Only when the two come together is one justified.
Yes. He was counted righteous in Genesis 15, for believing. However, consider this:
Exodus 4:
24 And it came to pass by the way in the inn, that the Lord met him, and sought to kill him. [Moses]
25 Then Zipporah took a sharp stone, and cut off the foreskin of her son, and cast it at his feet, and said, Surely a bloody husband art thou to me.
26 So he let him go: then she said, A bloody husband thou art, because of the circumcision.
It seems Moses had failed to have his son circumcised and that perhaps he himself was uncircumcised. God does chastise His children and some have even died physically for disobeying Him, as Moses almost did.
I don't understand, what is your point? That Abraham had been considered righteous even if he hadn't circumcised his household?
These things are all inextricably linked. You can’t separate any one of them from the others. None of them stand alone.
Saved by grace (free gift, unearned) through faith (belief proven through works). Faith is a law through which grace is administered. So is righteousness. Grace reigns, or rules, or runs, through righteousness. All of God’s commands are righteousness. None claiming to have earned grace, only claiming that these are the laws God established where grace resides, where it is to be found.
So no righteousness, no faith. No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation. None can be severed from the others.
I think people get too tripped up trying to discuss these ideas in isolation. They were never meant to be isolated in the Christian experience.
So you believe one could be KILLED for not obeying God,Yes, but that he quite likely would have been killed if he had not obeyed God, just as Moses almost was.
Yes, but that he quite likely would have been killed if he had not obeyed God, just as Moses almost was.
Here's what you wrote...Bump. Interested to hear from those who might not agree with this position, and specifically why?
Yes, this works. The point is that that none of them can exist without the others. Not unlike vital organs. Remove a vital organ, the rest of the body dies.Here's what you wrote...
These things are all inextricably linked. You can’t separate any one of them from the others. None of them stand alone.
Saved by grace (free gift, unearned) through faith (belief proven through works). Faith is a law through which grace is administered. So is righteousness. Grace reigns, or rules, or runs, through righteousness. All of God’s commands are righteousness. None claiming to have earned grace, only claiming that these are the laws God established where grace resides, where it is to be found.
So no righteousness, no faith. No faith, no grace. No grace, no salvation. None can be severed from the others.
I think people get too tripped up trying to discuss these ideas in isolation. They were never meant to be isolated in the Christian experience.
Could I change your third paragraph around a bit?
No grace...not faith
No faith...no righteousness
No righteousness...no salvation
As to the rest, yes, you're right.
I read this before in an article I posted just above...
Sanctification is the proof of justification. Justification, if not followed by sanctification is worthless. –
You might want to read this. I don't concern myself too much with scripture that's obsure...but I guess it's good to know about it.It's impossible to say how God would have dealt with Abraham. Maybe he would have given the promise to someone else, or maybe given Abraham another chance of being obedient.
What happened to Ananias and Sapphira? Were they saved after disobedience?
I haven't read the story of why Moses son wasn't circumcised.
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