Justification by Faith Defended!

112358 · Jun 18, 2018

Apologetic_Warrior said:
So weird the Apostle Paul invented the word and concept of predestination, and others like Augustine defended it, so weird how perseverance could be tied with predestination, and other concepts like chosen before the foundation of the world, weird!!

Trying not to read too much into this, but if we are headed in the direction of predestination and its implications (probably another thread completely) then we should do so with scriptures like this in mind: 2 Peter 3:9 Romans 2:11
Otherwise we are headed straight for the doctrine of universalism, or to the doctrine that God created and therefor endorses evil and disobedience. Free will clears these serious complications with predestination right up.

Foreknowing does not equate to forechoosing.

Kenny'sID · Jun 18, 2018

redleghunter said:
Is there any question of the finished work of Christ?

??

Is there a reason you don't wan to clarify, as I asked you, but instead you just repeat what you said with no clarification?

redleghunter said:
I'm not familiar with this parable. Are you sure it is not actually a political campaign advertisement?

I personally would have looked it up, that is if I truly wasn't familiar with it. Maybe you'd just rather not go there?

Your contrariness tells me you are afraid to discuss this further, and that's up to you, but the natural conclusion to that is you have no defense for whatever it is you are claiming...you won't even make that clear...wonder why?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

amariselle said:
As I said, I am not Calvinist, nor do I agree with the five points thereof. I have used only Scripture to clearly show that "Eternal Security" is 100% Biblical.

God bless.

I see from scripture that one could forfeit his salvation.
In two ways. One is by just abandoning and walking away from God. Another way is to return to a life of sin and loose our God conscienceness.

Luke 6:43-49
Faith, without actions can save no one.

James 2:25-26
We will give an account on the day of judgment, good works or evil works.

Mathew 12:30-37
A tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down.

Mathew 7:15-20
Those who hear Jesus' words and do not obey them are foolish.

Mathew 21:43
Those who look back do not deserve salvation.

2 Peter 3:17
We can fall from our secure position.

1 John 2:24
IF what we have heard from the beginning we will REMAIN with Jesus and His Father.

Phil 1:21 · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I see from scripture that one could forfeit his salvation.
In two ways. One is by just abandoning and walking away from God. Another way is to return to a life of sin and loose our God conscienceness.

Luke 6:43-49
Faith, without actions can save no one.

James 2:25-26
We will give an account on the day of judgment, good works or evil works.

Mathew 12:30-37
A tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down.

Mathew 7:15-20
Those who hear Jesus' words and do not obey them are foolish.

Mathew 21:43
Those who look back do not deserve salvation.

2 Peter 3:17
We can fall from our secure position.

1 John 2:24
IF what we have heard from the beginning we will REMAIN with Jesus and His Father.

Maybe you could point out where, in context, any of these scriptures says we can lose our salvation. The problem with copying and pasting lists of verses you find on Google searches is that they often don't say what you want them to say.

Kenny'sID · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I see from scripture that one could forfeit his salvation.
In two ways. One is by just abandoning and walking away from God. Another way is to return to a life of sin and loose our God conscienceness.

Simple, yet very true concept.

Kenny'sID · Jun 18, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Maybe you could point out where, in context, any of these scriptures says we can lose our salvation. The problem with copying and pasting lists of verses you find on Google searches is that the often don't say what you want them to say.

Here is a prior post on the biblical explanation Jesus gave of his Parable of the Sower, that covers what you are requesting, with scripture/explanation in detail on just what you are talking about here...losing salvation. Please read it and comment on it if you will....Thanks.

"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I see from scripture that one could forfeit his salvation.
In two ways. One is by just abandoning and walking away from God. Another way is to return to a life of sin and loose our God conscienceness.

Luke 6:43-49
Faith, without actions can save no one.

James 2:25-26
We will give an account on the day of judgment, good works or evil works.

Mathew 12:30-37
A tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down.

Mathew 7:15-20
Those who hear Jesus' words and do not obey them are foolish.

Mathew 21:43
Those who look back do not deserve salvation.

2 Peter 3:17
We can fall from our secure position.

1 John 2:24
IF what we have heard from the beginning we will REMAIN with Jesus and His Father.

As you know GG, we have been over this sufficiently. I have not simply provided a list of verses that on its own could seem confusing but have taken the time to honestly discuss various Scriptures with you over many many posts. We do not agree on how one is saved and stays saved. I understand.

Phil 1:21 · Jun 18, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
Here is a prior post on the biblical explanation Jesus gave of his Parable of the Sower, that covers what you are requesting, with scripture/explanation in detail on just what you are talking about here...losing salvation. Please read it and comment on it if you will....Thanks.

"If you could lose your salvation, you would."

I'm familiar with the parable of the sower. Nowhere in it does Jesus say the first three types were ever saved.

redleghunter · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
You can check that out for yourself. I did. I searched multiple books and called half a dozen Calvinist seminaries, talking to their systematic theology and church history professors, and no one could name a person before Calvin who taught this thesis. They all said Calvin was the first. I even called John Jefferson Davis, a scholar who published an article in the Journal of the Evangelical Theological Society on the history of this doctrine, a man who is himself a Calvinist, but who has researched the history of this doctrine thoroughly, and he said Calvin was the first to teach it.

This poses a problem even for those who claim that they take their teachings exclusively from Scripture, namely, “How could a doctrine this important–if true–remain completely undiscovered for the first 1500 years of Church history and, if Jesus comes back any time soon, for three quarters of all of Church history?”

You mean outside the Bible?

redleghunter · Jun 18, 2018

zoidar said:
How are we to understand Matt 25 then? Jesus says nothing here about being judged by belief or trust, but by deeds.

34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’ 37 Then the righteous will answer Him, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink? 38 And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39 When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 The King will answer and say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.’

What did Jesus do before these verses?

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
I tend to stick with the bible/Jesus words more than anything, then when other wisdom comes along, I would hope I can recognize it.

As far a s learning from a Church setting, they are men, and that can be a problem...some of the junk we see here actually comes out of some churches. That's not to say we cannot find a good church we can trust, not at all, but that one should always go back to the Bible if there is question about anything taught. And never assume we should not question authority if need be... doing so has landed a few smack dab i the middle of a cult or at the very least on very wrong paths.

As far as these wrong "easy" doctrines, it's as you say, love the grace part of the bargain, but to walk the talk? not on your life. They only want to make the requirement of any effort go away. They want "easy" more than they want what God requires, so they allow themselves to be easily swayed by false doctrine, and in this case as you say, swayed by those who choose to twist Paul's words, it's a favorite around here. They only need someone to help them justify what they want, then they are all over it without question.

They basically delude, or lead themselves astray out of sheer selfishness, so in the end, it's all on them, and all we can do is hope to wake them up..

Of course I agree with all you've said.
I just want to add that it's really impossible, I think, to find a church with which you'll agree on EVERYTHING. I'd say if we could get 80% we're lucky, we need to be agreed on the basics.

I also pay attention to how the people are. I like them to be nice, God loving persons. I'm all for obeying and doing the best I can, but no pharisees please. Some look down on others and this is not what Jesus would want. IOW, the people in the church have to reflect the love of God that Jesus taught us...agape.

I'm not having much luck here,,, BTW. (where I live).

amariselle · Jun 18, 2018

Halbhh said:
The OSAS question is pretty deep, and I don't try to say I know one way or the other. I can indeed imagine some suffering to the depths of despair before they turn around and repent, like the Prodigal Son. We know this does indeed happen. But I can't think His warnings about those not doing His commands are empty. Rather, His warnings are desperately needed to be listened to, for our own sakes.

About whether we can improve on the wonderful wording of Ephesians ch 2, v8-10 I quoted above, I'm feeling that wording is so wonderful that all my various paraphrases aren't as good (or at least at the moment). Or sometimes it's apples and oranges of course. But I mean I can't paraphrase those 3 verses themselves better than the full quote from the NIV translation, really.

Honestly, I disagree with the idea that a saved, born again and sealed believer who has become a new creation in Christ, has passed from death to life and no longer is under the wrath of God nor any condemnation, needs to “be entangled again in a yoke of bondage.”

Threats of God losing His adopted, purchased child, whom He has promised He will never lose, leave or forsake nor cast away, do not encourage love or obedience, only despair.

The “strength of sin” is the Law, not grace. And He who has been forgiven much loves much. We “rest” in Christ and we serve Him out of love, not out of fear.

There are chastisements and perhaps a loss of heavenly reward mentioned for those who have been saved, nor should we forget that we will stand before Christ one day and it would be terrible to be ashamed because we failed to do anything in response to so great a salvation. We need not fear, however, that God will ever cast His children into Hell.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
Maybe you could point out where, in context, any of these scriptures says we can lose our salvation. The problem with copying and pasting lists of verses you find on Google searches is that they often don't say what you want them to say.

So you have every single verse in the bible memorized?
Good for you. I wish I could do that. Poor me has to use concordances that are online.

The veses I posted require no explanation.
Please read them again...Here:

Luke 6:43-49
Faith, without actions can save no one.

James 2:25-26
We will give an account on the day of judgment, good works or evil works.
(what do you think happens to those with evil works? Sin will NOT enter into heaven...Revelation 21:27 --- didn't even need a concordance for that one!)

Mathew 12:30-37
A tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down.
(what happens to a tree that is cut down? IT DIES)

Mathew 7:15-20
Those who hear Jesus' words and do not obey them are foolish.
(Jesus said if we love Him we'll obey Him. John 14:15
What if we don't obey Him? John 15:6 He is thrown away, dries up and is burned)

Mathew 21:43
Those who look back do not deserve salvation.

2 Peter 3:17
We can fall from our secure position.
(fall means you've LOST your secure position)

1 John 2:24
IF what we have heard from the beginning we will REMAIN with Jesus and His Father.
(if we're NOT with Jesus when we die, we will NOT be saved)

Hope that helped.

discipler7 · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
I see from scripture that one could forfeit his salvation.
In two ways. One is by just abandoning and walking away from God. Another way is to return to a life of sin and loose our God conscienceness.

JOHN.3: = 18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1TIMOTHY.4: = The Great Apostasy
4 Now the Spirit expressly says that in latter times some will depart from the faith, giving heed to deceiving spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their own conscience seared with a hot iron, 3 forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. 4 For every creature of God is good, and nothing is to be refused if it is received with thanksgiving; 5 for it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

Cf; ...
2THESS.4: = 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith. 8 Finally, there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will give to me on that Day, and not to me only but also to all who have loved His appearing.
_ _ _ _ _ _ _

Scripture says salvation is forfeited by ceasing to believe in Jesus Christ or departing from the faith(= apostasy) or losing faith.(opposite of "kept the faith" is "lose the faith")
....... "I have kept the faith" or "I have kept believing" is not the same as "I have kept doing good works or kept the Law or kept obedience", even though faith produces good works and faithlessness produces evil-works.

Trying to define what are good works and evil works can be tricky. Those who have departed from the faith are those who are "forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from foods", ie enforcers of certain laws/commandments or good works, obedience or holiness.

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

amariselle said:
As you know GG, we have been over this sufficiently. I have not simply provided a list of verses that on its own could seem confusing but have taken the time to honestly discuss various Scriptures with you over many many posts. We do not agree on how one is saved and stays saved. I understand.

We agree on how one is saved.
We don't agree on how one stays saved because I believe it's necessary to obey God and you won't confirm this, so really we don't know what you believe.

If we do not obey God, there is no way we will be saved.
1 John 3:18

GodsGrace101 · Jun 18, 2018

redleghunter said:
You mean outside the Bible?

I think maybe you misunderstood?
The blue is always from another source, not me.
It was part of the article...

Phil 1:21 · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
So you have every single verse in the bible memorized?
Good for you. I wish I could do that. Poor me has to use concordances that are online.

No, but I know how to read them, in context, to see what they say. I mean, if you can find them on a Google search, you can read them too. (your sarcasm notwithstanding)

GodsGrace101 said:
The veses I posted require no explanation.
Please read them again...Here:

Luke 6:43-49
Faith, without actions can save no one.

James 2:25-26
We will give an account on the day of judgment, good works or evil works.
(what do you think happens to those with evil works? Sin will NOT enter into heaven...Revelation 21:27 --- didn't even need a concordance for that one!)

Mathew 12:30-37
A tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down.
(what happens to a tree that is cut down? IT DIES)

Mathew 7:15-20
Those who hear Jesus' words and do not obey them are foolish.
(Jesus said if we love Him we'll obey Him. John 14:15
What if we don't obey Him? John 15:6 He is thrown away, dries up and is burned)

Mathew 21:43
Those who look back do not deserve salvation.

2 Peter 3:17
We can fall from our secure position.
(fall means you've LOST your secure position)

1 John 2:24
IF what we have heard from the beginning we will REMAIN with Jesus and His Father.
(if we're NOT with Jesus when we die, we will NOT be saved)

Hope that helped.

And not a single one of them state that someone can receive salvation and then lose it. Actually, most of them speak to whether or not someone is saved.

2 Peter 3:17 comes the closest to making your case but still falls short. He never states what our "secured position" is. (If you're not familiar with 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, you may wish to study it before assuming Peter was talking about salvation).

Kenny'sID · Jun 18, 2018

GodsGrace101 said:
Of course I agree with all you've said.
I just want to add that it's really impossible, I think, to find a church with which you'll agree on EVERYTHING. I'd say if we could get 80% we're lucky, we need to be agreed on the basics.

I understand, we just have to weigh things out and then make our decisions.

GodsGrace101 said:
I also pay attention to how the people are. I like them to be nice, God loving persons. I'm all for obeying and doing the best I can, but no pharisees please. Some look down on others and this is not what Jesus would want. IOW, the people in the church have to reflect the love of God that Jesus taught us...agape.

On the Pharisees, what was it Christ said? something to the affect of do what they say not what they do.

GodsGrace101 said:
I'm not having much luck here,,, BTW. (where I live).

Sorry to hear that, but at least you are aware of the truth, when you could be some poor soul looking for guidance and ready to grab the first thing that comes along. Still some like a good Church setting, and it can be daunting when they can't find that. You may have to settle for 79%

Kenny'sID · Jun 18, 2018

Phil 1:21 said:
I'm familiar with the parable of the sower. Nowhere in it does Jesus say the first three types were ever saved.

Ah yes, the ol' "They were never saved to begin with" defense.

Actually, Jesus DOES say that, but you have to remove the blinders to see it, and it really is pretty clear if you care to look at the post I directed you too, the one it seems you choose to ignore, and not discuss because you choose the blinders over the truth...oh, well.

You ask for explanation, you get it, and then you ignore it.

112358 · Jun 18, 2018

Kenny'sID said:
Ah yes, the ol' "They were never saved to begin with" defense.

LOL, AKA the "That's not Christians" defense. Run into this one around every corner of NT scripture. Sometimes it makes one wonder just who the Christians in the NT are/were anyway?

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