Justification and Sanctification ?

zoidar said:

Sounds like you are describing the same thing. Faith to me involves a change of heart, where belief doesn't have to. As for how we use English.

Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, “The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
— Mark 1:14-15

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
— Ephesians 2:8

In Mark 1:15, believe and repent are separated. We need to two things, believe the fact and repent.

In Ephesians 2 the word faith includes repentance, without it even being mentioned. We are saved through belief and repentance, faith.

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Just as, after hearing the Word, we believe, so too, Faith comes by hearing the Gospel

Romans 10:17 (WEB) 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Do the following Scriptures involve a change of heart?

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 6:39-40 (WEB) 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Can someone receive the Spirit without first having a change of heart - isn't that what "repentance" means?

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Is there really a difference, doctrinally, between the words "faith" and "believe" ???

We receive the Spirit {{{by faith}}}

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We receive the Spirit {{{by believing}}}

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:5 (NIV) 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Chaleb said:

Its possible to intellectually understand that Jesus died on the Cross and rose again.

Yet, that is not the same as "faith comes by hearing" that you are a sinner and Christ is your Savior., even tho the message is similar.

Its the application of the understanding, that marks the difference, as to know it.... is not actually to believe that its for you personally. And once you have this understanding then you have come to "the knowledge of the Truth", but have not yet gone into Faith.

Taking that step from "receiving the knowledge of the Truth" (The Gospel) that Jesus died for your sin, into "yes, Jesus i know you died for me and i receive you now as my SAVIOR", is repenting from unbelief to Faith, and God sees this faith in your heart, and instantly accepts it as "faith is counted as righteousness, and you become this...>"Justification by Faith". without the law or works.

At that point, The blood atonement deals with your sin as "God had made Jesus to become sin for us", and "Jesus is the one time eternal sacrifice for all sin"...

Then, At THAT point, you are now "made righteous" and God gives you the New Birth., and you are born again and become "a new creation" "in Christ".


Welcome to Salvation.

Its a "GIFT".

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A person who is in the faith is the one who believes in Lord Jesus. Same thing.

By believing we pass from death onto life, which is regeneration, only by believing in Jesus.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

setst777 said:

Just as, after hearing the Word, we believe, so too, Faith comes by hearing the Gospel

Romans 10:17 (WEB) 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Do the following Scriptures involve a change of heart?

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

John 7:38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

John 3:14-18 (WEB) 14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him. 18 He who believes in him is not judged. He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

1 Corinthians 1:21 (WEB) 21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God, the world through its wisdom didn’t know God, it was God’s good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save those who believe.

John 6:39-40 (WEB) 39 This is the will of my Father who sent me, that of all he has given to me I should lose nothing, but should raise him up at the last day. 40 For this is the will of the one who sent me, that everyone who sees the Son, and believes in him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Can someone receive the Spirit without first having a change of heart - isn't that what "repentance" means?

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 In him you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

Is there really a difference, doctrinally, between the words "faith" and "believe" ???

We receive the Spirit {{{by faith}}}

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I received the Spirit upon repentance.

setst777 said:

Galatians 3:26 (WEB) For you are all children of God, {{through faith}} in Christ Jesus.

Galatians 4:6 (WEB) And because you are children, God sent out the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, “Abba, Father!”

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

We receive the Spirit {{{by believing}}}

John 7:37-38 (WEB) 38 He who believes in me, as the Scripture has said, from within him will flow rivers of living water.” 39 But he said this about the Spirit, which those believing in him were to receive.

Galatians 3:2 (NIV) 2 I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by believing what you heard?

Galatians 3:5 (NIV) 5 So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard?

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also believed, you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, 14 who is a pledge of our inheritance, to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of his glory.

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I'm not fully sure what you are arguing. That we don't need to repent to receive the Holy Spirit? What place do you then give repentance?

zoidar said:

I received the Spirit upon repentance.


I'm not fully sure what you are arguing for. That we don't need to repent to receive the Holy Spirit? What place do you then give repentance?

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What I am showing you is that believing includes repentance, because we don't receive the Spirit without a faith that includes repentance - that is the faith of the Gospel. So, I am showing you that there is absolutely no difference between the meaning of the words "faith" and "believe." There is no dichotomy between these two words as if they were doctrinally teaching two different things. They mean the same thing, just different tenses.

setst777 said:

What I am showing you is that believing includes repentance, because we don't receive the Spirit without a faith that includes repentance - that is the faith of the Gospel. So, I am showing you that there is absolutely no difference between the meaning of the words "faith" and "believe." There is no dichotomy between these two words as if they were doctrinally teaching two different things. They mean the same thing, just different tenses.

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What would you do with my story then? I came to believe that Jesus did die for us and that he was resurrected from the dead. As I got home from work I asked God for forgiveness and I received the Holy Spirit. I then believed in Jesus for my salvation. What would then be the difference of the belief I had prior to salvation and the belief after? How can you describe that without using different words? Both are "believes" yet different, one salvific, one not.

setst777 said:

By believing we pass from death onto life,

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Watch this...

"We Pass".......from death to life".

This is to be born again.

Death is sin, Life is Redemption as Eternal Life "in Christ".

And we are now "Translated from that death, from that darkness, ...into LIGHT".

1.) God exists in Light
2.) Jesus is the LIGHT of the world
3.) The born again are CHILDREN OF THE Light...

We were sinners, under the Law.....but now we are regenerated into "Saints", who eternally exist as "under Grace".

The Law, defined you as a sinner.......whereas God's Grace RE-defines you as "

Heir of God
Brethren
Temple of the Holy Spirit
Saint
Joint Heir with Jesus
Born again
Made Righteous
One with God


Welcome to Salvation.

Its a "GIFT"

zoidar said:

What would you do with my story then? I came to believe that Jesus did die for us and that he was resurrected from the dead. As I got home from work I asked God for forgiveness and I received the Holy Spirit. I then believed in Jesus for my salvation. What would then be the difference of the belief I had prior to salvation and the belief after? How can you describe that without using different words? Both are "believes" yet different, one salvific, one not.

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Firstly, you are now asking about two different kinds of believing. Your original objection was that by believing we receive the Spirit, and then the Spirit turns your belief into faith. I quote you:

zoidar said:
I think we believe and repent first and then the Holy Spirit is given us, turning our belief into faith.

But I have shown you, by the Scriptures, that we receive the Spirit by faith, which is the same as receiving the Spirit by believing. Sane thing, same meaning. Faith is just another tense of the same word. There is no Scripture teaching that the Spirit turns believing into faith. That is a false dichotomy. Faith is believing. Same thing.

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit {{{through faith.}}}

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also {{{believed,}}} you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Secondly: Now, as to your present question, I write as follows:

After hearing the Gospel and believing the message, you went home and did what the Gospel teaches - you repented and put your faith in Lord Jesus. And when you believed in Lord Jesus, you received His Spirit to mark you as his own and to lead you into that new life of salvation.

setst777 said:

What I am showing you is that believing includes repentance, because we don't receive the Spirit without a faith that includes repentance - that is the faith of the Gospel.

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Having been taught since birth the backwards ways of man are truth, anyone then finding that the counter-culture of Gospel of the Kingdom is truth, rejects the ways of man. That change/repentance is belief in another system not common to the world that man has made in our own image and the epiphany in itself could be seen as the coming of a new spirit of enlightenment, one that one will strongly defend even though the world will hate them as a traitor to their ways of the adversary.

Chaleb said:

Watch this...

"We Pass".......from death to life".

This is to be born again.

Death is sin, Life is Redemption as Eternal Life "in Christ".

And we are now "Translated from that death, from that darkness, ...into LIGHT".

1.) God exists in Light
2.) Jesus is the LIGHT of the world
3.) The born again are CHILDREN OF THE Light...

We were sinners, under the Law.....but now we are regenerated into "Saints", who eternally exist as "under Grace".

The Law, defined you as a sinner.......whereas God's Grace RE-defines you as "

Heir of God
Brethren
Temple of the Holy Spirit
Saint
Joint Heir with Jesus
Born again
Made Righteous
One with God


Welcome to Salvation.

Its a "GIFT"

Click to expand...

Exactly, regeneration is God's gracious gift through faith.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

By believing we pass from death onto life, which is regeneration, only by believing in Jesus.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

timothyu said:

Having been taught since birth the backwards ways of man are truth, anyone then finding that the counter-culture of Gospel of the Kingdom is truth, rejects the ways of man. That change/repentance is belief in another system not common to the world that man has made in our own image and the epiphany in itself could be seen as the coming of a new spirit of enlightenment, one that one will strongly defend even though the wold will hate them as a traitor to the ways of the adversary.

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That is more true today than ever. Thanks for sharing.

setst777 said:

Firstly, you are now asking about two different kinds of believing. Your original objection was that by believing we receive the Spirit, and then the Spirit turns your belief into faith. I quote you:

zoidar said:
I think we believe and repent first and then the Holy Spirit is given us, turning our belief into faith.

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That's kind of what I'm saying there are two kinds of faith/belief. The one that has not yet received the Holy Spirit and the one that has. So to make the distinction clear, I used belief for the first, faith for the other.

setst777 said:

But I have shown you, by the Scriptures, that we receive the Spirit by faith, which is the same as receiving the Spirit by believing. Sane thing, same meaning. Faith is just another tense of the same word. There is no Scripture teaching that the Spirit turns believing into faith. That is a false dichotomy. Faith is believing. Same thing.

Galatians 3:13-14 (WEB) Bolding mine… 13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us. For it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree,” 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Christ Jesus; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit {{{through faith.}}}

Ephesians 1:13-14 (WEB) 13 in whom you also, having heard the word of the truth, the Good News of your salvation—in whom, having also {{{believed,}}} you were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit,

Secondly: Now, as to your present question, I write as follows:

After hearing the Gospel and believing the message, you went home and did what the Gospel teaches - you repented and put your faith in Lord Jesus. And when you believed in Lord Jesus, you received His Spirit to mark you as his own and to lead you into that new life of salvation.

Click to expand...

You are basically saying as soon as you put faith in Christ for you salvation, you have repented?

setst777 said:

That is more true today than ever. Thanks for sharing.

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Setst777,


Long before man was trying to reach God or become like God by self effort and self righteousness, Lucifer had tried that and was kicked out of Heaven.

It never works.


Cain tried it also........taking his works to God and God told Him to GET OUT !!


Jesus told those who were never born again, but cast out devils in His name, bulit churches in his name, or worked 65 year sin India helping poor children...

= Jesus told then this after they died.....>"""Depart from me, i never KNEW YOU"..

And why not?

Because Jesus said.....>"you must be born again"........and they were not. And.....Most of them were water baptized and religious and tried to be like Christ.

Chaleb said:

Setst777,


Long before man was trying to reach God or become like God by self effort and self righteousness, Lucifer had tried that and was kicked out of Heaven.

It never works.


Cain tried it also........taking his works to God and God told Him to GET OUT !!


Jesus told those who were never born again, but cast out devils in His name, bulit churches in his name, or worked 65 year in India helping poor children...

He told then this after they died.....>"""Depart from me, i never KNEW YOU"..

And why not?

Because Jesus said.....>"you must be born again"........and they were not. And.....Most of them were water baptized and religious.

Click to expand...

Exactly, regeneration is the born again experience and is God's gracious gift through faith.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.

By believing we pass from death onto life, which is regeneration, only by believing in Jesus.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

zoidar said:

That's kind of what I'm saying there are two kinds of faith/belief. The one that has not yet received the Holy Spirit and the one that has. So to make the distinction clear, I used belief for the first, faith for the other.

You are basically saying as soon as you put faith in Christ for you salvation, you have repented?

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Faith and repentance are used interchangeably in the NT. I can show you many Scriptures that say that we are saved by repenting, and other Scriptures teaching that we are saved by faith or believing.

Repentance is a complete change of mind from what you used to live for, to that of whom you now believe in and live for.

I will say this, if you truly repent after hearing the Gospel, then that means you truly believe in Lord Jesus.

setst777 said:

Faith and repentance are used interchangeably in the NT. I can show you many Scriptures that say that we are saved by repenting, and other Scriptures teaching that we are saved by faith or believing.

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Yes, and that means both faith and repentance are needed to receive the Holy Spirit, not just "faith".

setst777 said:

Repentance is a complete change of mind from what you used to live for, to that of whom you now believe in and live for.

I will say this, if you truly repent after hearing the Gospel, then that means you truly believe in Lord Jesus.

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I would say repentance leads to a complete change of mind ... that's a work that can only be done by the Holy Spirit through belief and repentance.

setst777 said:

I will say this, if you truly repent after hearing the Gospel, then that means you truly believe in Lord Jesus.

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And understanding the Gospel of the Kingdom, there is a feeling of peace in turning against the flow and becoming a rebel with a cause of the Kingdom, a hater of man as Tacitus once called it.

zoidar said:

Yes, and that means both faith and repentance are needed to receive the Holy Spirit, not just "faith".

I would say repentance leads to a complete change of mind ... that's a work that can only be done by the Holy Spirit through belief and repentance.

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There is a difference between the drawing of the Word and Spirit from that of regeneration, after receiving the Spirit by faith

The Spirit always works with the Word to convict the world of sin and draw us to Christ. And this drawing of God started with the Jews, but is now for the whole world by God’s Word and Spirit, ever since Lord Jesus was glorified.

John 12:32 (WEB) And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.

Romans 10:17 (WEB) 17 So faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

John 16:8 (WEB) When he (the Spirit) has come, he will convict the world about sin, about righteousness, and about judgment

Those who refuse to believe after learning the word about Christ, and resist the Spirit, God does not give to the Son, and they are not given eternal life (regeneration) but remain condemned.

John 5:39-40 (WEB) 39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me, 40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life (regeneration).

Acts 7:51 (WEB) You stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, you always resist the Holy Spirit! As your fathers did, so you do.

Those who refuse to believe after the drawing of the Word and Spirit will not come to the Son.

John 3:18 (WEB) 18 He who doesn’t believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the one and only Son of God.

Matthew 22:3 (NIV) He sent his servants to those who had been invited [those of Elect Israel] to the banquet to tell them to come, but {{they refused}} to come.

Matthew 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I would have gathered your children together, even as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you refused!

2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 (NIV) They perish because {{they refused to love the truth}} and so be saved. 11 For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12 and so that all will be condemned {{who have not believed the truth}} but have delighted in wickedness.

setst777 said:

Exactly, regeneration is the born again experience and is God's gracious gift through faith.

Romans 5:1-2 (WEB) 1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ; 2 through whom we also have our access by faith into this grace in which we stand.
By believing we pass from death onto life, which is regeneration, only by believing in Jesus.

John 5:24 (WEB) Most certainly I tell you, he who hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life, and doesn’t come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Click to expand...

"I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever!" Rev 1:17-18

zoidar said:

Yes, and that means both faith and repentance are needed to receive the Holy Spirit, not just "faith".

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Very True. Faith without repentance is not the Gospel Faith by which God chooses to save us.

zoidar said:

I would say repentance leads to a complete change of mind ... that's a work that can only be done by the Holy Spirit through belief and repentance.

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Repentance without a change of mind is not repentance. No one truly believes in Lord Jesus unless they first repent - a change of mind from faith in the old master of selfish ambition, serving its lusts, to that of faith in Lord Jesus - a commitment to listen to and follow Him. That is repentance and is expressed in the act of Baptism - dying to old master, and rising to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17.

These are the believers whom the Spirit indwells to lead their faith commitment to victory, but only as they continue in the faith demonstrated by walking in the Spirit, which is to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

setst777 said:

Very True. Faith without repentance is not the Gospel Faith by which God chooses to save us.



Repentance without a change of mind is not repentance. No one truly believes in Lord Jesus unless they first repent - a change of mind from faith in the old master of selfish ambition, serving its lusts, to that of faith in Lord Jesus - a commitment to listen to and follow Him. That is repentance and is expressed in the act of Baptism - dying to old master, and rising to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

Romans 6; Colossians 3:1-17.

These are the believers whom the Spirit indwells to lead their faith commitment to victory, but only as they continue in the faith demonstrated by walking in the Spirit, which is to follow Lord Jesus into a sanctified life of righteousness and love.

Galatians 5:24-25 (WEB) 24 Those who belong to Christ have crucified the flesh with its passions and lusts. 25 If we live by the Spirit, let’s also walk by the Spirit.

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To me a change of mind comes first, then the new birth follows, with a complete change of life. IOW first change of mind, then receiving the Spirit and a new heart.