Justification and Sanctification ?

[Clare73]

I'm just sharing how it was for me. I have come to the conclusion it's not the same for everyone. God is not limited to a box. Each Christian has his/her own story.

Is their true confession; i.e., agreeing with God (about your sin) without faith?

 

[Rapture Bound]

I'm just sharing how it was for me. I have come to the conclusion it's not the same for everyone. God is not limited to a box. Each Christian has his/her own story.

You stated, "" I have come to the conclusion it's not the same for everyone."

Well, I can sort of understand what your saying here, but I think it may be a little
misleading to say that every person is not "saved by grace through faith alone"
[if indeed that is what you are implying ... I really don't know].

We certainly do not have to have a perfect understanding of what the inter-relationships
look like between saving faith, repentance of sins, and confession of sins in order
to be saved {God knows our hearts]. That said, if a person possesses no real, viable
understanding of it ... it is, to say the least ... skating on thin ice, (that will more than
likely break). [please don't take this as me saying that you specifically have no understanding
of it].

Perhaps you are simply referring to the different paths that led up to a person's conversion
experience, or what they were thinking about, or what they said to the Lord the moments
directly before or after their new birth experience?

Anyways, if I get into a detailed explanation of what my views are .... I'll have to put
down my bag of popcorn before I fall into that "rabbit hole"- lol. I'm currently working
on some future posts that involves key components of this critical subject, so I do
intend to crawl into that rabbit hole ... just not right now.

 

[zoidar]

You stated, "" I have come to the conclusion it's not the same for everyone."

Well, I can sort of understand what your saying here, but I think it may be a little
misleading to say that every person is not "saved by grace through faith alone"
[if indeed that is what you are implying ... I really don't know].

We certainly do not have to have a perfect understanding of what the inter-relationships
look like between saving faith, repentance of sins, and confession of sins in order
to be saved {God knows our hearts]. That said, if a person possesses no real, viable
understanding of it ... it is, to say the least ... skating on thin ice, (that will more than
likely break). [please don't take this as me saying that you specifically have no understanding
of it].

Perhaps you are simply referring to the different paths that led up to a person's conversion
experience, or what they were thinking about, or what they said to the Lord the moments
directly before or after their new birth experience?

Anyways, if I get into a detailed explanation of what my views are .... I'll have to put
down my bag of popcorn before I fall into that "rabbit hole"- lol. I'm currently working
on some future posts that involves key components of this critical subject, so I do
intend to crawl into that rabbit hole ... just not right now.

I'm saying people seem to receive the Holy Spirit in different ways. I as I confessed being a sinner in need of forgiveness, others when being prayed for, yet others from listening to a sermon or just reading the Bible. As we receive the Holy Spirit the outcome is the same for all, living faith. Doctrines don't have much to do with it. Salvation is not a matter of doctrine, but docrines can help us stay on course.

 

[Clare73]

I'm saying people seem to receive the Holy Spirit in different ways. I as I confessed being a sinner in need of forgiveness, others when being prayed for, yet others from listening to a sermon or just reading the Bible. As we receive the Holy Spirit the outcome is the same for all, living faith. Doctrines don't have much to do with it. Salvation is not a matter of doctrine, but docrines can help us stay on course.

So what is the object of your faith? See Ro 3:25.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I'm just sharing how it was for me. I have come to the conclusion it's not the same for everyone. God is not limited to a box. Each Christian has his/her own story.

Agreed. Add to that, the fact that the experience of each person is subject to their interpretation of just what happened, based on what it felt like and what seemed to accompany it, again, from their POV.

 

[zoidar]

Is their true confession; i.e., agreeing with God (about your sin) without faith?

I often make a distinction between believing and having saving faith. You need to believe to confess being a sinner. But you need to confess being a sinner to have saving faith.

 

[zoidar]

So what is the object of your faith? See Ro 3:25.

It's not that I mean no doctrine at all is needed. But just the very basic, that Christ died for our sins.

 

[zoidar]

Agreed. Add to that, the fact that the experience of each person is subject toof their interpretation of just what happened, based on what it felt like and what seemed to accompany it, again, from their POV.

I have talked with people who tell you about their experience coming to faith and it just doesn't add up, but for them it seem very real. It's not that I know everything, but sometimes you don't need to be an expert to know when something is not from God. Some things are very sad, but it's hard to do much about it when a person is convinced.

 

[AbbaLove]

Your questions are difficult to respond to because one of the debated items here is how a person defines the term "nominal Christian". Some view the term as applying to merely professing Christians, but not actually regenerated individuals ... while others perceive them as being actually regenerated people. It seems to me that you place them in the latter category ... correct me if I'm mistaken.

No kidding! Tells me that you are perceptive enuf of the twists and turns of modern Christianity (i.e. there's no perfect church). You may have come to the conclusion that sorting out the Truth without the "Insturction and Guidance" of the Holy Spirit abiding in us is futile. Resistance to sin is futile without the abiding insturction, guidance and obedience.

Or possibly you're confused to the point that you just sit back with a bag of popcorn or chips. Maybe, not even reading-digesting the Word Of GOD (BIBLE) as it seems an impossible path to walk.

If a person perceives/defines a nominal Christian as being merely a professing believer [such as myself], then nominal Christians "set poor examples" and "never mature or worse backslide" due to the fact that they were never in "the starting gate" in the first place [they were never indwelt by the Holy Spirit].

Paul as a Follower of Christ told the Corinthian Church to stop sinning .- except MSG translation ?? ...

awake up, as is right, and sin not; for certain have an ignorance of God; for shame to you I say it. (YLT)​

Sober up morally and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame. (NASB)​

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. (KJV)​

Think carefully about what is right, and stop sinning. For to your shame I say that some of you don’t know God at all. (NLT)​

Be sober-minded [be sensible, wake up from your spiritual stupor] as you ought, and stop sinning; for some [of you] have​

no knowledge of God [you are disgracefully ignorant of Him, and ignore His truths]. I say this to your shame. (Amplified Bible)​

​

Think straight. Awaken to the holiness of life. No more playing fast and loose with resurrection facts. Ignorance of God is a luxury you can’t afford in times like these. Aren’t you embarrassed that you’ve let this kind of thing go on as long as you have? (MSG)​

My daughter attended Lee College (Church Of God) Cleveland, TN. The popular translation used by too many students was the MSG. Should one assume that a seminary student (pastoral training) that uses the MSG are ikely nominal than a mature Christian. Does Clare73 mean what i think she's implying ...

There is a MonoSodium Glutamate translation

What is MSG? Is it bad for you?​

How does your body react to MSG?

This flavor enhancer often added to foods can cause headache and other symptoms in some people.

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[Clare73]

No kidding! Tells me that you are perceptive enuf of the twists and turns of modern Christianity (i.e. there's no perfect church). You may have come to the conclusion that sorting out the Truth without the "Insturction and Guidance" of the Holy Spirit abiding in us is futile. Resistance to sin is futile without the abiding insturction, guidance and obedience.
Or possibly you're confused to the point that you just sit back with a bag of popcorn or chips. Maybe, not even reading-digesting the Word Of GOD (BIBLE) as it seems an impossible path to walk.
Paul as a Follower of Christ told the Corinthian Church to stop sinning .- except MSG translation ?? ...

awake up, as is right, and sin not; for certain have an ignorance of God; for shame to you I say it. (YLT)​

Sober up morally and stop sinning, for some have no knowledge of God. I say this to your shame. (NASB)​

Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame. (KJV)​

Think carefully about what is right, and stop sinning. For to your shame I say that some of you don’t know God at all. (NLT)​

Be sober-minded [be sensible, wake up from your spiritual stupor] as you ought, and stop sinning; for some [of you] have​

no knowledge of God [you are disgracefully ignorant of Him, and ignore His truths]. I say this to your shame. (Amplified Bible)​

Think straight. Awaken to the holiness of life. No more playing fast and loose with resurrection facts. Ignorance of God is a luxury you can’t afford in times like these. Aren’t you embarrassed that you’ve let this kind of thing go on as long as you have? (MSG)​

My daughter attended Lee College (Church Of God) Cleveland, TN. The popular translation used by too many students was the MSG. Should one assume that a seminary student (pastoral training) that uses the MSG are ikely nominal than a mature Christian. Does Clare73 mean what i think she's implying ...

What is MSG? Is it bad for you?​

How does your body react to MSG?

This flavor enhancer often added to foods can cause headache and other symptoms in some people.

www.mayoclinic.org

Clare meant nothing more than a play on words, and certainly nothing about your lovely daughter.

 

[Clare73]

I often make a distinction between believing and having saving faith. You need to believe to confess being a sinner. But you need to confess being a sinner to have saving faith.

However, the NT presents saving faith as faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e, sin debt (Ro 5:18) paid (Ro 5:9).

 

[AbbaLove]

The NT reveals that the born again are not sinless (1 John 1: 8-10).

You have often quoted these verses to support the belief that it is impossible to stop sinning. Even though Jesus' words "Stop your sinning ..." and "Go and sin no more" as well as Paul's admonition to the Corithian church to "stop sinning".

If Jesus (like Paul) spoke the words "Stop Sinning!" after His resurrection to His 'born again' Apostles would His Words still take a back seat to 1 John 1:8-10? One needs to consider that John didn't go to the gentiles as did Paul. It's likely that some of John's Jewish converts were followers of the Law: Matthew 19:18-21 ...

18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,​

19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”​

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”​

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”​

As such it would not be uncommon (unlike the gentile converts) that Jewish converts still saw themselves as more righteous than Paul's gentile converts and still held to some of their Jewish traditions. More than a few looked down on non-Jewish gentile coverts to Christianity. Knowing this John found it necesary to point out that even self-righteous Jewish converts weren't sinless (edit correction)...

8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

These words must have come across as convicting to the Jewish heart of even a born again Jewish convert. One that still held to a form of Messianic Judiasm thinking that doing so was a ticket to heaven. That mindset of a Jewish convert is most likely why Jesus felt it necessary to tell the Jewish religious elders and scribes...

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28)​

And if that wasn't enuf to make His point Jesus went on to further say ...

If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [b]to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Matt. 5:29)​

Bottomline: John is NOT saying it's impossible to "stop sinning" or he would be contradicting the words of Jesus. What he is getting across to the Jewish mindset of Jewish convert that thinks he has never sinned. So, like Romans 7 and Matthew 5 ... John is reminding his Jewish converts that they were sinners and need to accept it as fact.

​

As with Romans 7 and Paul's reference to "chief" among sinners as before he was born again as a new creation in Christ. So too with Jewish converts that may have thought any sin was nothing in comparision to gentile sins. John needed to remind them that sin was still crouching at the door even after their conversion. It's not uncommon for a new Christian to be hounded by the enemy. However, should we then conclude it's impossible not to sin ... "lead us not into tempation". A Christian knows when they are being tempted. If they have been indocrinated into thinking it's impossible to stop sinning .... well, what' the result ?

 

[AbbaLove]

Clare meant nothing more than a play on words, and certainly nothing about your lovely daughter.

I took no offense whatsoever. I don't own an MSG and never will ... waste of money.

My daughter like other students at Lee College saw nothing wrong with the MSG (modern paraphrased translation) even though her mom and dad don't think much about the MSG as worthy.

It is interesting to occasionally compare MSG scripture with say NASB scripture (internet). IMO ... MSG is read, by far, more by nominal Christians than mature Christians. It seems that even Christian colleges are going the way of 'seeker-sensitive' theology to attract and keep students.

 

[Clare73]

You have often quoted these verses to support the belief that it is impossible to stop sinning. Even though Jesus' words "Stop your sinning ..." and "Go and sin no more" as well as Paul's admonition to the Corithian church to "stop sinning".

If Jesus (like Paul) spoke the words "Stop Sinning!" after His resurrection to His 'born again' Apostles would His Words still take a back seat to 1 John 1:8-10? One needs to consider that John didn't go to the gentiles as did Paul. It's likely that some of John's Jewish converts were followers of the Law: Matthew 19:18-21 ...

18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,​

19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”​

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”​

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”​

As such it would not be uncommon (unlike the gentile converts) that Jewish converts still saw themselves as more righteous than Paul's gentile converts and still held to some of their Jewish traditions. More than a few looked down on non-Jewish gentile coverts to Christianity. Knowing this John found it necesary to point out that even self-righteous Jewish converts weren't sinless (edit correction)...

8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

These words must have come across as convicting to the Jewish heart of even a born again Jewish convert. One that still held to a form of Messianic Judiasm thinking that doing so was a ticket to heaven. That mindset of a Jewish convert is most likely why Jesus felt it necessary to tell the Jewish religious elders and scribes...

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28)​

And if that wasn't enuf to make His point Jesus went on to further say ...

If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [b]to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Matt. 5:29)​

Bottomline: John is NOT saying it's impossible to "stop sinning" or he would be contradicting the words of Jesus. What he is getting across to the Jewish mindset of Jewish convert that thinks he has never sinned. So, like Romans 7 and Matthew 5 ... John is reminding his Jewish converts that they were sinners and need to accept it as fact.

​

As with Romans 7 and Paul's reference to "chief" among sinners as before he was born again as a new creation in Christ. So too with Jewish converts that thought they were without sin before their 'born again' conversion.

You have often quoted these verses to support the belief that it is impossible to stop sinning. Even though Jesus' words "Stop your sinning ..." and "Go and sin no more" as well as Paul's admonition to the Corithian church to "stop sinning".

If Jesus (like Paul) spoke the words "Stop Sinning!" after His resurrection to His 'born again' Apostles would His Words still take a back seat to 1 John 1:8-10? One needs to consider that John didn't go to the gentiles as did Paul. It's likely that some of John's Jewish converts were followers of the Law: Matthew 19:18-21 ...

18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,​

19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”​

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”​

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”​

As such it would not be uncommon (unlike the gentile converts) that Jewish converts still saw themselves as more righteous than Paul's gentile converts and still held to some of their Jewish traditions. More than a few looked down on non-Jewish gentile coverts to Christianity. Knowing this John found it necesary to point out that even self-righteous Jewish converts weren't sinless (edit correction)...

8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

These words must have come across as convicting to the Jewish heart of even a born again Jewish convert. One that still held to a form of Messianic Judiasm thinking that doing so was a ticket to heaven. That mindset of a Jewish convert is most likely why Jesus felt it necessary to tell the Jewish religious elders and scribes...

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28)​

And if that wasn't enuf to make His point Jesus went on to further say ...

If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [b]to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Matt. 5:29)​

Bottomline: John is NOT saying it's impossible to "stop sinning" or he would be contradicting the words of Jesus. What he is getting across to the Jewish mindset of Jewish convert that thinks he has never sinned. So, like Romans 7 and Matthew 5 ... John is reminding his Jewish converts that they were sinners and need to accept it as fact.

Or in context, your understanding of what Jesus is saying is inadequate, and there is no contradiction; i.e., his sinful practice was the cause of his malady, which Jesus would know about even if no one else did.

As with Romans 7 and Paul's reference to "chief" among sinners as before he was born again as a new creation in Christ. So too with Jewish converts that thought they were without sin before their 'born again' conversion.

 

[timothyu]

John is reminding his Jewish converts that they were sinners and need to accept it as fact.

That reminds me of the people who think the devil made them do it and love to blame outside sources for their misfortunes rather than accept responsibility, when in fact we are more than proficient in acting the same as the 'devil' using our adversarial nature to serve self..

 

[zoidar]

You have often quoted these verses to support the belief that it is impossible to stop sinning. Even though Jesus' words "Stop your sinning ..." and "Go and sin no more" as well as Paul's admonition to the Corithian church to "stop sinning".

If Jesus (like Paul) spoke the words "Stop Sinning!" after His resurrection to His 'born again' Apostles would His Words still take a back seat to 1 John 1:8-10? One needs to consider that John didn't go to the gentiles as did Paul. It's likely that some of John's Jewish converts were followers of the Law: Matthew 19:18-21 ...

18 “Which ones?” he inquired. Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony,​

19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”​

20 “All these I have kept,” the young man said. “What do I still lack?”​

21 Jesus answered, “If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.”​

As such it would not be uncommon (unlike the gentile converts) that Jewish converts still saw themselves as more righteous than Paul's gentile converts and still held to some of their Jewish traditions. More than a few looked down on non-Jewish gentile coverts to Christianity. Knowing this John found it necesary to point out that even self-righteous Jewish converts weren't sinless (edit correction)...

8-10 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

These words must have come across as convicting to the Jewish heart of even a born again Jewish convert. One that still held to a form of Messianic Judiasm thinking that doing so was a ticket to heaven. That mindset of a Jewish convert is most likely why Jesus felt it necessary to tell the Jewish religious elders and scribes...

“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. (Matt. 5:27-28)​

And if that wasn't enuf to make His point Jesus went on to further say ...

If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you [b]to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. (Matt. 5:29)​

Bottomline: John is NOT saying it's impossible to "stop sinning" or he would be contradicting the words of Jesus. What he is getting across to the Jewish mindset of Jewish convert that thinks he has never sinned. So, like Romans 7 and Matthew 5 ... John is reminding his Jewish converts that they were sinners and need to accept it as fact.

​

As with Romans 7 and Paul's reference to "chief" among sinners as before he was born again as a new creation in Christ. So too with Jewish converts that may have thought any sin was nothing in comparision to gentile sins. John needed to remind them that sin was still crouching at the door even after their conversion. It's not uncommon for a new Christian to be hounded by the enemy. However, should we then conclude it's impossible not to sin ... "lead us not into tempation". A Christian knows when they are being tempted. If they have been indocrinated into thinking it's impossible to stop sinning .... well, what' the result ?

Wasn't John writing to deal with Gnostic ideas of the time, and not so much Judaism?

 

[AbbaLove]

That reminds me of the people who think the devil made them do it and love to blame outside sources for their misfortunes rather than accept responsibility, when in fact we are more than proficient in acting the same as the 'devil' using our adversarial nature to serve self..

YES! The indoctrination of many of today's seeker-sensitive is reminicscent of those skits by Flip Wilson ("the devil made me do it"). BUT doesn't that only apply to pre-conversion "chief" sinners that are deceived by satan and his co-hurts? Should it apply to nominal born again Christians that aren't well-versed in HIS Word and maybe don't even want to be such as this inspired Word of GOD.

God is faithful, and He will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation He will also provide the way of escape,
that you may be able to endure it (1 Corinthians 10:13).​

You've probably heard of Jewish "tefillin" for the arm and or hand. It is to constantly remind one of GOD's promises and warnings that helps as daily they go about their business ...

​

It wouldn't be a bad idea for some Christians to carry scripture in their pocket or tattoo their arm if they have a problem with say ... lying or lust. The problem is that some Christians actually don't want to be delivered from lying or lust. And it doesn't help if they've been taught it's impossible to stop stinning (1 John 1:8-10) ... even though Jesus, Paul and James instruction would differ from what seeker-sensitive Christians have been led to believe by other Christians and even their pastors.

Wouldn't even a prominent tattoo over your heart be better than having to cut off one's hand or pluck out one's eye ...

If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. For it is better that you lose one of the parts of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell.​

 

[AbbaLove]

Wasn't John writing to deal with Gnostic ideas of the time, and not so much Judaism?

Judaism is not considered Gnostic. Gnostics worship two (or more) gods;

 

[timothyu]

Should it apply to nominal born again Christians that aren't well-versed in HIS Word and maybe don't even want to be such as this inspired Word of GOD.

Why should anyone not realize they are their own worst enemy due to our built in selfish nature?

 

[zoidar]

However, the NT presents saving faith as faith in and trust on the person and atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ for the remission of one's sin and right standing with God's justice; i.e, sin debt (Ro 5:18) paid (Ro 5:9).

Not to be picky, but I don't think the NT mentions trusting on Christ or the atoning work of Christ to be saved or have saving faith.

However if you receive the Holy Spirit, you will surely both trust and have faith in Christ and the atoning work of Christ.