Justification and Sanctification ?

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2023

HTacianas said:
If you look at the sins of the writer you find that he is not describing intentional sins, or even acts of sin. He goes to great length in describing the sins he is guilty of and they are sins of the mind. He sees things that he wants. He covets. It is the "lust of the eye" that he is describing. Basically, as much as he wants to control his desires, his mind wanders. Nowhere in it does he describe any act of sin, but some want to use it as just that. As if to say "it is not me that is committing murder but sin living in me". Paul goes on to say to the Corinthians what his penalty would be if he in fact committed an intentional sin:

1 Cor 9:27: But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

Go back to where the writer begins, at Romans 7:7 and you'll see what he means:

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Paul is not referring only to coveting he is referring to sin in general. He just uses coveting as one example of how the law revealed that it was a sin. Furthermore he is not only referring to thoughts because he keeps on using the word “do” and “doing” indicating that he is actually committing sins not just thinking about them. Something you think about doing and something you do are two different things.

Clare73 · May 10, 2023

timothyu said:
Yes but the definition would be more hard hitting if it said a turning away from self absorption. Leaves no room for misinterpretation.

A turning away from unbelief to belief. . .dealing with your sin then follows.

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2023

Clare73 said:
Can't stop sinning" is prior to new birth. They do much better after new birth.
But we are not sin free after the new birth (1 Jn 1:8-10). That comes only in glory.

Do you know someone who has not sinned after their new birth?

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2023

Clare73 said:
Agreed. . .

I see Paul as clearly referring to his life in Judaism prior to his conversion to life in Christ (Ro 7:25).
Nor are we sinless in Christ (1 Jn 1:8-10).

"Can't stop sinning" is prior to new birth. They do much better after new birth.
But we are not sin free after the new birth (1 Jn 1:8-10). That comes only in glory.

He says what I AM DOING not what I once did or did before. He also said “wretched man I am” not I was.

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2023

BurningBush84 said:
I think Paul agreed with what James 2:10 says. Paul said in Galatians 5, "Walk by the spirit, and you will not carry out what the sinful flesh desires. For the sinful flesh desires what is contrary to the spirit, and the spirit what is contrary to the sinful flesh. In fact, these two continually oppose one another, so that you do not continue to do these things you want to do.".

You will never get rid of your sinful nature/old Adam until you enter Heaven. So its gonna be a battle/struggle.

That’s how I see it and that’s also what I’ve witnessed in every Christian I’ve encountered including myself. I get absolutely angry and disgusted with myself when I sin and I think that’s exactly what Paul was feeling as well.

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2023

AbbaLove said:
Are you saying that applies to all "born again" (1 Peter 1:22-23) Believers or just those that are justified, but not yet fully sanctified?

1 Peter 1:22-23 seems to imply that it's possible to become a New Creation in Christ (born again) while still on earth (before heaven).

22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for each other, love one another deeply, from the heart.
23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring Word of God.

Is it your belief that Titus 3:5 doesn't take place while a faithful Christian on earth, but rather only as a new creation in Heaven ...

He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit,

Your post comes across as believing that Paul (Romans 7:17-20) is referring to himself while he's still on earth spreading the Good News (Gospel) now as a Follower of Christ Jesus being instructed by the Holy Spirit. ... Is that correct?

But Paul also warned of grieving the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 4:17 all the way to Ephesians 5:6. So just because we are sealed with the Holy Spirit doesn’t mean that we can’t sin.

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2023

AbbaLove said:
Just to be clear ... is it your belief that even though instructed by the Holy Spirit that it still wasn't possible for Paul to stop his daily struggle with sin after being born again (1 Peter 1:22-23) ? These words by Jesus suggest it is possible to stop sinning.

Afterward Jesus found him in the temple and said to him, “See, you are well! Sin no more, that nothing worse may happen to you.” (John 5:14)
Jesus straightened up and asked her, “Woman, where are they? Has no one condemned you?” “No one, sir,” she said. “Then neither do I condemn you. Jesus declared. “Go now and leave your life of sin.” (John 8:10-11)

Submit yourselves, then, to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7)

It sounds like you believe that Paul was unable to submit himself to God. Is this why you believe he struggled daily with sin?
A Christian that is unable to submit themself to God makes it difficult for them to stop sinning.

These are commandments, not assurances that we will not be able to sin once we are born again.

Clare73 · May 10, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
He says what I AM DOING not what I once did or did before. He also said “wretched man I am” not I was.

He is referring to life apart from Christ (Ro 7:24-25).

timothyu · May 10, 2023

Clare73 said:
A turning away from unbelief to belief. . .dealing with your sin then follows.

Without stating unbelief is following one's own will rather than the will of God, leaves that open to misrepresentation

Clare73 · May 10, 2023

timothyu said:
Without stating unbelief is following one's own will rather than the will of God, leaves that open to misrepresentation

Jesus and the apostles always state the issue of salvation in terms of belief and unbelief, and not in terms of preferring one's own will over God's will.
That is your own personal and unauthorized attempt to embellish the word of God. . .smacking (tasting) a whole lot like "following one's own will rather than the will of God" in the terminology used in the Scriptures.

timothyu · May 10, 2023

Clare73 said:
Jesus and the apostles always state the issue of salvation in terms of belief and unbelief, and not in terms of preferring one's own will over God's will.

The entire Bible starting with Eve is a matter of wrongly putting one's own will ahead of the will of God and we are told these stories so we may understand that we are backwards thinkers when we do so.

BNR32FAN · May 10, 2023

Clare73 said:
He is referring to life apart from Christ (Ro 7:24-25).

But he wasn’t apart from Christ when he wrote it. What he was talking about is the same thing every Christian faces, stumbling in sin.

Clare73 · May 10, 2023

timothyu said:
The entire Bible starting with Eve is a matter of wrongly putting one's own will ahead of the will of God and we are told these stories so we may understand that we are backwards thinkers when we do so.

Faith is no about willing, faith is about believing.

Clare73 · May 10, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
But he wasn’t apart from Christ when he wrote it. What he was talking about is the same thing every Christian faces, stumbling in sin.

He didn't have to be (Ro 7:24-25), he had been there before.

timothyu · May 10, 2023

Clare73 said:
Faith is no about willing, faith is about believing.

Believing God's will is truth while ours is false and self serving

Clare73 · May 10, 2023

timothyu said:
Believing God's will is truth while ours is false and self serving

In my Bible, saving faith is believing in and trusting on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of sin and right standing with God's justice (justification).

timothyu · May 10, 2023

Clare73 said:
In my Bible, saving faith is believing in and trusting on the atoning work (blood, Ro 3:25) of Jesus Christ for remission of sin and right standing with God's justice (justification).

Which opened the door to resurrection and the Kingdom. It is still up to us to reject the self serving ways of mankind and knowing why.

Clare73 · May 10, 2023

timothyu said:
Which opened the door to resurrection and the Kingdom.

Which saved me from eternal fire!

All, not just the sons of God, are resurrected at the final judgment.

timothyu said:
It is still up to us to reject the self serving ways of mankind and knowing why.

It's up to me to walk in obedience in the power of the Spirit.

HTacianas · May 10, 2023

BNR32FAN said:
Paul is not referring only to coveting he is referring to sin in general. He just uses coveting as one example of how the law revealed that it was a sin. Furthermore he is not only referring to thoughts because he keeps on using the word “do” and “doing” indicating that he is actually committing sins not just thinking about them. Something you think about doing and something you do are two different things.

To covet is to do. Else it would not be prohibited. And no, he is not talking about sin in general, as if to say he is stealing or committing adultery. He speaks directly to that very thing to the Corinthians:

1Co 9:27 But I discipline my body and bring it into subjection, lest, when I have preached to others, I myself should become disqualified.

timothyu · May 10, 2023

Clare73 said:
It's up to me to walk in obedience in the power of the Spirit.

Of course... which runs opposite to the will and default ways of mankind

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