JUSTIFICATION: δικαιωμα/δικαιωσις

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
...Erasmus... pointed out the Catholic mistranslation of the Greek word 'Justificare'-to make righteous, and corrected the translation of 'Justificare'-to declare righteous.

fwiw - "Justificare" is a Latin word and term...

It is not a Greek word...

dikaio/w is the Greek - Strong's number 1344

It is a little irregular in its declensions...

What English has trouble with is finding one English root that does what the dik- root does in Greek... Righteousness, justify, and justification use "just" as the English root for two, and only in the first use the English equivalent of the Greek dik-, which is "right-"... We have not used Biblically what the Bible uses, which would be rectitude, rectify, and rectification... Because dik- literally translates as rect- and means right...

The Greek also is used legally in the sense of a verdict, but this is a derivative meaning, which simply affirms in words that which is ontologically an existent fact. The judge justifies the just, declares right the righteous... But as a general rule, the Bible does not use the derivative meanings of Greek terms, but their fundamental ones. And this idea that He declares right those who are not right is not Biblical... He forgives sinners, and died for the remission of their sins, which they appropriate by entering into repentance from sins, unto Baptism into Christ, wherein as members of His Holy Body, they are no longer their own, but Christ's, according to their faithfulness... Some more, some less...

The basic idea of the Fall is our recovery from it's death into which we are born in a fallen world, in Christ as members of His Body - Wherein Christ in His Body has overcome death... And the Gospel message is: "Be ye repenting..." For this is the human means of gaining entry into Christ's Body... And it is Christ's Body that IS the Kingdom of Heaven... Indeed it is Christ Himself Who IS the Kingdom of Heaven... And we are baptized INTO Christ... We are baptized INTO His Death upon the Cross... We are baptized into our death to this fallen age of death into which we were born, in order that we should find Life in Christ into Whom we ARE Baptized...

Arsenios
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
fwiw - "Justificare" is a Latin word and term...

It is not a Greek word...
Yes, I know iustificare is a Latin word, and not a Greek word.

Greek word 'dikaiosune,' which means 'to declare righteous.' It is a legal term, a verdict. But the Latin Vulgate had translated 'dikaiosune' with the Latin word iustificare, which means 'to make righteous.'

The Latin Vulgate, Jerome's 4th century translation of the Scriptures, had been the official translation throughout the middle ages, and its integrity was generally assumed. But then came the Renaissance, a recovery of classical learning that included a return to the original Greek text of Scripture.

Erasmus and a host of classical scholars recognized that the Greek text required an understanding of justification that referred to a change in status rather than to a change in behavior or mode of being. Again, Erasmus had no doctrinal stake in this matter. He was not only a loyal son of the Roman church; he had engaged in heated polemics with Luther over free will. Nevertheless, he was Europe's leading authority on the classical languages and could not overlook the glaring mistranslations. For this reason it has been said that Erasmus laid the egg that Luther hatched.

It is quite remarkable that the Roman Church would continue to embrace its erroneous view of justification, given the advances in scholarship by their own best minds.

Justification of a sinner, in simple terms boils down to this: Are we justified by a process by which we become actually just or are we justified by a declarative act by which we are counted/reckoned/credited/declared righteous by God?

To answer these questions lets go to Paul in Romans 4,

Abraham's Justification by Faith (KJV)

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

I just love Romans, here Paul makes it crystal clear, on how Abraham is counted/declared righteous before God. Abraham has nothing to boast about before God; meaning any inherent works or righteousness. Abraham believes God who justifies the "UNGODLY"; his faith is counted for righteousness apart from his works!

So is Abraham justified by a process and becoming righteous, or by a declarative of God, because Abraham believed God who justifies the ungodly? Understand this, then you understand how Glorious, Merciful, Gracious God really is. This justification is free, not earned by anything we do, including our repentance. Repentance is the fruit of true faith in God, it grows from our faith in God. But repentance is not the ground of our justification; Christ Jesus is the ground of our Justification and everything flows from him [Union with Christ] and received through Faith Alone!
dikaio/w is the Greek - Strong's number 1344

It is a little irregular in its declensions...

What English has trouble with is finding one English root that does what the dik- root does in Greek... Righteousness, justify, and justification use "just" as the English root for two, and only in the first use the English equivalent of the Greek dik-, which is "right-"... We have not used Biblically what the Bible uses, which would be rectitude, rectify, and rectification... Because dik- literally translates as rect- and means right...

Dikaios (Greek: δικαιος, sometimes romanised as dicæus) is a title given to holy men and women of the Old Testament in Eastern Christianity.

The Greek also is used legally in the sense of a verdict, but this is a derivative meaning, which simply affirms in words that which is ontologically an existent fact. The judge justifies the just, declares right the righteous... But as a general rule, the Bible does not use the derivative meanings of Greek terms, but their fundamental ones. And this idea that He declares right those who are not right is not Biblical... He forgives sinners, and died for the remission of their sins, which they appropriate by entering into repentance from sins, unto Baptism into Christ, wherein as members of His Holy Body, they are no longer their own, but Christ's, according to their faithfulness... Some more, some less...

Explaining justification will give us some light for understanding the matter, we are first to see what is meant by the words "justification" and "justice" or "righteousness."

Justice, therefore, or righteousness (I mean that which is created, for of uncreated righteousness we have nothing to say) is nothing but a perfect conformity to and agreement with the Law of God. God's will, being originally, essentially, and infinitely righteous, must be the pattern and rule of all derivative and finite righteousness. Now this righteousness, though but one in its substance, nevertheless admits a twofold consideration, being called either:

1) Legal and of works, which stands in that conformity to God's Law which is inherent within ourselves, when in our own persons and works we possess and practice that righteousness which is required of the Law. In other words we are trying by our Law keeping to achieve perfect righteousness to God's Law. But this is impossible because no sinful flesh will be able to achieve any through God's Law. One has to be absolutely spotless.

This is why we all sinners are under the curse of God's Law. The Law brings knowledge of sin. The Law condemns sin, and sin brings condemnation and death. But if the Law is fulfilled then one is given Eternal life, and a kingdom. Which Christ merited through His perfect obedience to the law.

Matthew 5:17 17"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.

2) Imputed righteousness by Faith, which is such a conformity to God's Law as is not inherent in our own persons, but, being in another, is imputed unto us and declared as ours (Romans 4). The Righteousness of the Law and the righteousness of the Gospel are not two different kinds of righteousness, but are the same n regard to the matter and substance thereof; they differ only in the subject and manner of application. The righteousness of works is that holiness and obedience which are inherent in our persons and performed by ourselves. The righteousness of Faith is the same holiness and obedience inherent in the person of Christ and performed by Him, but embraced by our Faith and accepted by God as done in our stead and for our benefit.
The basic idea of the Fall is our recovery from it's death into which we are born in a fallen world, in Christ as members of His Body - Wherein Christ in His Body has overcome death... And the Gospel message is: "Be ye repenting..." For this is the human means of gaining entry into Christ's Body... And it is Christ's Body that IS the Kingdom of Heaven... Indeed it is Christ Himself Who IS the Kingdom of Heaven... And we are baptized INTO Christ... We are baptized INTO His Death upon the Cross... We are baptized into our death to this fallen age of death into which we were born, in order that we should find Life in Christ into Whom we ARE Baptized...

Arsenios

The gospel of Christ in general is this: It is the good tidings that God has revealed concerning Christ. More largely it is this: As all mankind was lost in Adam and became the children of wrath, put under the sentence of death, God, though He left His fallen angels and has reserved them in the chains of eternal darkness, yet He has thought upon the children of men and has provided a way of atonement to reconcile them to Himself again...Namely, the second person of the Trinity takes man's nature upon Himself, and becomes the Head of a second covenant, standing charged with sin. He answers for it by suffering what the law and divine justice required, and by making satisfaction by keeping the law perfectly, which satisfaction and righteousness He tenders up to the Father as a sweet savor of rest for the souls that are given to Him...And now this mediation of Christ is, by the appointment of the Father, preached to the children of men, of whatever nation or rank, freely offering this atonement unto sinners for atonement, requiring them to believe in Him and, upon believing, promising not only a discharge of all their former sins, but that they shall not enter into condemnation, that none of their sins or unworthiness shall ever hinder the peace of God with them, but that they shall through Him be received into the number of those who shall have the image of God again to be renewed unto them, and they shall be kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation.

Jeremiah Burroughs

Dear friend, I hope I have preached Christ and God promises to you, well? I do not wish to debate with you, not only share the Gospel of Christ that Paul preached to the ungodly! I'll pray for you and hope you understand, what I am sharing here with you today.

Learn this holy instruction: we are not to be found in our own righteousness at all!

God Bless, in our Covenantal Savior and King Jesus Christ
 
Upvote 0

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Yes, I know iustificare is a Latin word, and not a Greek word.

Greek word 'dikaiosune,' which means 'to declare righteous.' It is a legal term, a verdict. But the Latin Vulgate had translated 'dikaiosune' with the Latin word iustificare, which means 'to make righteous.'

fwiw, dikaiosune is not a verb...

It means righteousness [Strong's #1343] - Conjoining "RIGHT" [dik-] and "TOGETHER WITH" [sune]... It does not mean justification, but the condition of being right in one's soul - It means RIGHT together with YOU...

I will get to the rest of your post later, but this one point illustrates the difficulty of approaching the Greek text from a non-Greek western Protestant phronema...

Mat 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God,
and (seek ye) his righteousness
; (δικαιοσυνην)
and all these things shall be added unto you.

And also fwiw, Justificare, I think, means to justify, not to make righteous...

If you want to know the original meaning of what justificare translates, you need to go to the Greek of which it IS a translation... Both, btw, are living traditions - You can make a phone call and ask what is meant by those who speak the language of the Bible... There ARE living Greek Orthodox Koine Greek speakers... I can give you contact info on one who lives in Chicago, who translated the Old Testament into English, and is a chanter in his Church...

Arsenios
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
fwiw, dikaiosune is not a verb...

It means righteousness [Strong's #1343] - Conjoining "RIGHT" [dik-] and "TOGETHER WITH" [sune]... It does not mean justification, but the condition of being right in one's soul - It means RIGHT together with YOU...

I will get to the rest of your post later, but this one point illustrates the difficulty of approaching the Greek text from a non-Greek western Protestant phronema...

As I said before I am not debating with you here. But you seem to want too. I am just sharing and proving scripture from KJV.

Strong's Number:1343 Dikaiosune

Definition:

1) in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God
a) the doctrine concerning the way in which man may attain a state approved by God.
b) integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking, feeling, and acting
2) in a narrower sense, justice or the virtue which gives each his due

Note: that Dikaiosune is used 29 times in Romans. 4x more than any other book.

dikaiosuné: righteousness, justice
Original Word: δικαιοσύνη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiosuné
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay)
Short Definition: justice, justness, righteousness
Definition: (usually if not always in a Jewish atmosphere), justice, justness, righteousness, righteousness of which God is the source or author, but practically: a divine righteousness.
HELPS Word-studies
1343 dikaiosýnē (from 1349 /díkē, "a judicial verdict") – properly, judicial approval (the verdict of approval); in the NT, the approval of God ("divine approval").

1343 /dikaiosýnē ("divine approval") is the regular NT term used for righteousness ("God's judicial approval"). 1343 /dikaiosýnē ("the approval of God") refers to what is deemed right by the Lord (after His examination), i.e. what is approved in His eyes.



References Toggle Dropdown
Find it!



Dikaioo
Share Tweet Save
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon



Strong's Number: 1344 Browse Lexicon
Original Word
Word Origin
dikaioo from (1342)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Dikaioo 2:211,168
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
dik-ah-yo'-o Verb
Definition
  1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
  2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
  3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
NAS Word Usage - Total: 39
acknowledged...justice 1, acquitted 1, freed 3, justified 24, justifier 1, justifies 2, justify 4, vindicated 3
Mat 6:33
But seek ye first the kingdom of God,
and (seek ye) his righteousness
; (δικαιοσυνην)
and all these things shall be added unto you.

And also fwiw, Justificare, I think, means to justify, not to make righteous...

If you want to know the original meaning of what justificare translates, you need to go to the Greek of which it IS a translation... Both, btw, are living traditions - You can make a phone call and ask what is meant by those who speak the language of the Bible... There ARE living Greek Orthodox Koine Greek speakers... I can give you contact info on one who lives in Chicago, who translated the Old Testament into English, and is a chanter in his Church...

Arsenios

Dikaioo speaks to being declared righteous; but not our own righteousness. But the righteousness given by God to those who believe.

Romans 4:5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
 
Upvote 0

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Dikaioo
Definition
  1. to render righteous or such he ought to be
  2. to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered
  3. to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be
So the primary meaning is to make right...
Next is to act right...
And the last is to declare something right...

Dikaioo speaks to being declared righteous; but not our own righteousness. But the righteousness given by God to those who believe.

So God makes righteous? That is true... For God makes us right before Him...

Romans 4:5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

tw de Mh ergazomenw
But to the one not working

pisteuonti de epi ton dikaiounta ton asebh
yet (is) believing upon Him making right the un-Godly

logizetai h pistiv autou eiv dikaiosunhn
his faitn is being accounted unto righteousness.

This more literal translation might prove helpful... The present participles show more clearly the ongoing nature of justification before God... We are not suddenly and completely made right with God as sinners... Instead, we progressively become more and more right with Him as we are "running the race" and overcoming the principalities and powers of darkness that are ruling the world... For those doing so, God elevates them so as to take on greater principalities and powers... Sanctification is utterly given by God, for it is God Himself in Holiness that is palpable...

I personally do not argue from the non-Christian Hebrew texts, because I do not know that language, and I would end up merely sounding foolish and presumptuous... And I have plenty of that as it is... :)

Arsenios
 
Upvote 0

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
As I said before I am not debating with you here. But you seem to want too. I am just sharing and proving scripture from KJV.

Because I said that dikaiosune is not a verb as you had mistakenly defined it? My brother, that was a grammatical correction, and not an interpretational debating issue...

Dikaiosune is a noun, and it refers to a condition of a person that is embracing that which is right... That is its fundamental meaning... The rest are derived from that meaning - eg "together with right"...

Your understanding seems, at least to my half-blind old eyes, to be a Protestant's pastoral sermon derivation of the more fundamental meaning...

Thank you for sharing your perspective!

Arsenios
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Because I said that dikaiosune is not a verb as you had mistakenly defined it? My brother, that was a grammatical correction, and not an interpretational debating issue...

Dikaiosune is a noun, and it refers to a condition of a person that is embracing that which is right... That is its fundamental meaning... The rest are derived from that meaning - eg "together with right"...

Your understanding seems, at least to my half-blind old eyes, to be a Protestant's pastoral sermon derivation of the more fundamental meaning...

Thank you for sharing your perspective!

Arsenios

My mistake for accusing you of wanting to debate. Forgive me? I did not mistakenly defined it. I wish I could take credit for it, but it was the Catholic Priest Erasmus that corrected the mistranslation of Rome.

Now here's the definition of dikaiosune:

Strong's Number:1343 Dikaiosune

Definition:

1) in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God
a) the doctrine concerning the way in which man may attain a state approved by God.
b) integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking, feeling, and acting
2) in a narrower sense, justice or the virtue which gives each his due

Note: that Dikaiosune is used 29 times in Romans. 4x more than any other book.

dikaiosuné: righteousness, justice
Original Word: δικαιοσύνη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiosuné
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay)
Short Definition: justice, justness, righteousness
Definition: (usually if not always in a Jewish atmosphere), justice, justness, righteousness, righteousness of which God is the source or author, but practically: a divine righteousness.
HELPS Word-studies
1343 dikaiosýnē (from 1349 /díkē, "a judicial verdict") – properly, judicial approval (the verdict of approval); in the NT, the approval of God ("divine approval").

1343 /dikaiosýnē ("divine approval") is the regular NT term used for righteousness ("God's judicial approval"). 1343 /dikaiosýnē ("the approval of God") refers to what is deemed right by the Lord (after His examination), i.e. what is approved in His eyes.

A Divine righteousness, righteousness of which God is the SOURCE or Author. ("the approval of God") refers to what is deemed right by the Lord (after His examination), i.e. what is approved in His eyes.

So on what righteousness can God approve us? Our own? Or by the righteousness of Christ? This is the crucial question Arsenios.

Now Dikaioo is the Greek word to declare righteous, not to make righteous. What's the difference? To make righteous, in the Reformation debates with Rome, was that Rome taught that sinners receive grace of initial justification, then its up to the believer to provide good works worthy of more grace and justification to reach a final justification. But if the believer does not reach this goal in this life time, then they have time (how much time, nobody knows for sure) in purgatory to reach this goal of final justification.

In the Reformed Faith we the believing sinner who hears the Gospel of Christ, and believes who Jesus said is he, and what he has done for him or her. Is declared righteous, because they believe in God and His word that He justifies the ungodly apart from works of the Law. There is nothing this believer can glory in, except Christ and him Alone before God. Because Christ has fulfilled the broken Covenant of Works with Perfect Righteousness, He killed sin in the Flesh in our stead; by our sin being imputed to Him and His righteous being imputed to us. We are clothed in the White Robe of Righteousness of Christ! And we are declared righteous by God because we believe in Christ and what He has done for us! Amen!!!

Hope this helps???

God Bless, Dear brother!!

Romans 4:5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

This is the Reformation teaching of Justification of the sinner! Sanctification then flows from this. The fruit of justification. Now being made alive with Christ, we live to God. Walking in Holiness, and obedience, but always trusting and believing that we are always saved in Christ Alone, and not confused what we do, with what Christ did!!!
 
Upvote 0

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
My mistake for accusing you of wanting to debate. Forgive me? I did not mistakenly define it. I wish I could take credit for it, but it was the Catholic Priest Erasmus that corrected the mistranslation of Rome.

All you did was mistakenly call it a verb when it is a noun, which is easy to do if you are not familiar with Greek...

So on what righteousness can God approve us?

God is fully able to approve anyone He chooses for whatever reason He may or may not have...


I would hope not...

Or by the righteousness of Christ?

Yes, that is the Righteousness we seek to attain...

Christ IS God, btw...

This is the crucial question Arsenios.

God's approval of Christ? I do not think that is a question at all...

Christ is God... You already know that...

Now Dikaioo is the Greek word to declare righteous, not to make righteous.

My Liddel and Scott Lexicon defines dikaiow as:

I: To make right:
To think right
To consent
also To claim as one's right

II: To judge
To condemn
To punish

III: To make just, bold, guileless, justify

My brother, you cannot make your case from the Greek which you do not know...
It is embarassing to watch you try, OK?

The first definition is the fundamental one, from which the others are derived...
The Koine Greek of the Bible is a very fundamental, even descriptive Greek...
Salvation is not a matter of legal approval, but of God's Grace...
He GIVES this Grace to those who embrace the Gospel of Christ...
To those living repentant lives and Baptized into Christ...
To those discipled in the Body of Christ, the Ekklesia...
To those living in obedience to Christ...
Who live lives of self-denial and suffering...

These are matters we must willfully take up...

Thank-you for sharing your thoughts...

Arsenios
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
All you did was mistakenly call it a verb when it is a noun, which is easy to do if you are not familiar with Greek...
Again I wish I could take credit for it, but the credit belongs to the Catholic Priest Erasmus. If you do your homework on it, you will be able to understand it the premise of it.

The definition in Strong's clearly states that this Greek word is a plight of man/women before God. By His/hers own righteousness or by another righteousness? So there is more to unpack here Arsenios.

Strong's Number:1343 Dikaiosune

Definition:

1) in a broad sense: state of him who is as he ought to be, righteousness, the condition acceptable to God
a) the doctrine concerning the way in which man may attain a state approved by God.
b) integrity, virtue, purity of life, rightness, correctness of thinking, feeling, and acting
2) in a narrower sense, justice or the virtue which gives each his due

Note: that Dikaiosune is used 29 times in Romans. 4x more than any other book.

dikaiosuné: righteousness, justice
Original Word: δικαιοσύνη, ης, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: dikaiosuné
Phonetic Spelling: (dik-ah-yos-oo'-nay)
Short Definition: justice, justness, righteousness
Definition: (usually if not always in a Jewish atmosphere), justice, justness, righteousness, righteousness of which God is the source or author, but practically: a divine righteousness.
HELPS Word-studies
1343 dikaiosýnē (from 1349 /díkē, "a judicial verdict") – properly, judicial approval (the verdict of approval); in the NT, the approval of God ("divine approval").

1343 /dikaiosýnē ("divine approval") is the regular NT term used for righteousness ("God's judicial approval"). 1343 /dikaiosýnē ("the approval of God") refers to what is deemed right by the Lord (after His examination), i.e. what is approved in His eyes.

* the way in which man may attain a state approved by God.
* a divine righteousness.

* justice or the virtue which gives each his due

But Rome mistranslated the Greek word to the Latin term 'iustificare'. Not Luther or any other Reformer. It was the Catholic Priest Erasmus that corrected.
God is fully able to approve anyone He chooses for whatever reason He may or may not have...
This is too ambiguous, because the Bible is clear of our condition before God. And what God did to save us from it. Namely that Christ had to be born in the flesh, under the Law. For a specific reason.

Read this Romans 8:1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

This is how God saves us, in His Son through Faith apart from works. In other words we believe God in whom He sent, and what He had accomplish for us.


I would hope not...
Please explain further. I am intrigued.
Yes, that is the Righteousness we seek to attain...

Christ IS God, btw...
Amen Arsenios!!! The righteousness you seek in Christ is given 'FREELY' in the Gospel to those who believe.

Romans 10:3Because they were ignorant of
God’s righteousness
and
sought to establish their own
, they did not
submit to God’s righteousness.
4

Amen!! Christ is God!!
God's approval of Christ? I do not think that is a question at all...

Christ is God... You already know that...

See Arsenios, the debate through the centuries has been: Man can earn the righteousness needed before God through their own efforts. The other side says that we need a Savior to rescue sinners who cannot perform any such righteousness before God, because they are convicted law breakers. But Christ fulfills this required righteousness for them.
My Liddel and Scott Lexicon defines dikaiow as:

I: To make right:
To think right
To consent
also To claim as one's right

II: To judge
To condemn
To punish

III: To make just, bold, guileless, justify

My brother, you cannot make your case from the Greek which you do not know...
It is embarassing to watch you try, OK?

I am not embarrassed, because I know what I believe and why I believe it. Because even here it states to make right. How does it make it right, Arsenios? Think before you reply. Because justification is not sanctification. By a judge rendering a verdict does not make a person righteous or evil. Its a declarative legal status, follow?

When the Judge & Jury announced a verdict of not guilty for O.J. Simpson. Did that verdict make O.J a righteous being (morally)? Or was it a legal status? That's what you are missing. I was hoping you would have come to that conclusion on your own.
The first definition is the fundamental one, from which the others are derived...
The Koine Greek of the Bible is a very fundamental, even descriptive Greek...
Salvation is not a matter of legal approval, but of God's Grace...
He GIVES this Grace to those who embrace the Gospel of Christ...
To those living repentant lives and Baptized into Christ...
To those discipled in the Body of Christ, the Ekklesia...
To those living in obedience to Christ...
Who live lives of self-denial and suffering...

These are matters we must willfully take up...

Thank-you for sharing your thoughts...

Arsenios

"Salvation is not a matter of legal approval, but of God's Grace..." Yes, I agree that Salvation is of God's Grace Alone! And is why He came down into time & history born in the flesh; under the law; to kill sin in the flesh; to die and suffer in our place. How is this not Fatherly Love?

The Gospel of Christ is God's Grace. Given 'FREELY' to those who believe apart from works.

Abraham Justified by Faith

1What then shall we say was gained by Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh? 2For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness.” 4Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. 5And to the one who does not work but believes ina him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness, 6just as David also speaks of the blessing of the one to whom God counts righteousness apart from works:

7“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
and whose sins are covered;
8blessed is the man against whom the Lord will not count his sin.”

Now to these:

To those living repentant lives and Baptized into Christ...
To those discipled in the Body of Christ, the Ekklesia...
To those living in obedience to Christ...
Who live lives of self-denial and suffering...

This in the Reformed is called Sanctification. The fruits of our Justification in Christ apart from any works. These are the effects of our Justification in Christ not the cause of it.

Hope this helps.

God Bless you and yours, Dear brother
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
My brother, you cannot make your case from the Greek which you do not know...
It is embarassing to watch you try, OK?

Arsenios

I thank you for your constructive criticism. I will take it into consideration. I already know I am a dumb Christian, the dumbest in my opinion. But the truth stays the truth, no matter how smart or dumb I am.

Its my fault that I cannot be lucid or articulate enough. So I will share with you from a Reformed resource:

Justification

Definition of Justification

The establishment of a sinner in a righteous standing before God. The verb dikaioo means “to declare or demonstrate to be righteous” (Matt. 11:19; 12:37; Luke 7:29; 10:29). The cognate nouns are dikaiosune (Rom. 1:17), dikaiosis (Rom. 4:25), and dikaioma (Rom. 1:32; 5:16, 18). Dikaiosune is always translated “righteousness” and denotes a perfect rectitude according to the standard of God’s character revealed in His law. The phrase “the righteousness of God” may denote the divine attribute of righteousness, or in the great soteriological teaching of Romans, the righteousness God has provided to give His people a title to eternal life (Rom. 3:22; 5:17, “the gift of righteousness”).

Dikaiosis is the action of declaring righteous, and dikaioma signifies the verdict, the judgment handed down by God. Lenski states the relationship between these two terms: dikaiosis is “a declaring righteous (action)”; dikaioma is “a declaring righteous and thereby placing in a permanent relationship or state even as the declaration stands permanently (result).” The language of Scripture, therefore, points to justification as God’s action in declaring His people righteous and placing them in a state of legal perfection before His law on the basis of the righteousness He provided freely for them in Christ.

There is no more scriptural or succinct theological definition of justification than that given by the Shorter Catechism: “Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein He pardoneth all our sins, and accepteth us as righteous in His sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone” (Q. 33; see Westminster Confession of Faith, chap. 11).

This is what I believe, because is it God's truth, God's word, God's Promise to sinners who believe in what he has done in Christ apart from anything we suffer or do.

I will end this post with one of my favorite theologian, Martin Luther on Justification by Faith Alone!

The breakthrough in a Protestant understanding of the Gospel came when this individual understood, for the first time, that what Paul meant regarding the "righteousness of God" (Rom. 1:17) was not punitive but a promise of God's gracious movement towards us, making us righteous.

Sorry one more excerpt from R.C. Sproul on Justification by Faith Alone.

The word--the English word justification comes over from the Latin "iustificare," which literally to make just or to make righteous. Now one of the problems that produced this whole controversy historically was in the early centuries. The Latin fathers were not reading and developing their doctrine from the Greek but rather from the Vulgate, from the Latin translation of the Bible. And when the Latin translation of the Bible speaks about justification it uses the Latin "iustificare," which is drawn from the legal structure of the Rome system of law.

And again, to make righteous, means that here's a person who is not righteous and the word to justify means that you make them righteous so that they become truly righteous in and of themselves. So the system of justification that developed was the system of understanding how an unjust person is made just or righteous. Now when we talk about the process of being made truly righteous, we're talking not about justification but about sanctification. So we believe that first there's justification and then what follows from justification is sanctification. Where in the ancient Roman view, because of the use of that term "iustificare", actually sanctification was preceding justification [which means that our works, suffering, good deeds, or whatever, was trying to earn justification before God; its our own righteousness that saves us, and not God's free gift of righteousness in Christ given to us that actually saves us] because God wouldn't pronounce you just until you actually had become just. But the Greek word "dikaiosune" does not mean to make righteous, it means to count, or reckon as righteous, or treat as righteous. And so the heart of the Reformation view is that while we are still unrighteous, we are declared to be righteous by God's applying to us the righteousness of Christ through imputation [crediting, giving, declaring us freely through His grace alone].

The Moment of Awakening
R.C. Sproul describes the moment of awakening Martin Luther had as he read Romans 1:17, "For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith for faith, as it is written, 'The righteous shall live by faith.'"

He says, “Here in it,” in the gospel, “the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, ‘the just shall live by faith.’” A verse taken from the book of Habakkuk in the Old Testament that is cited three times in the New Testament. As Luther would stop short and say, “What does this mean, that there’s this righteousness that is by faith, and from faith to faith? What does it mean that the righteous shall live by faith?” Which again as I said was the thematic verse for the whole exposition of the gospel that Paul sets forth here in the book of Romans.

And so, the lights came on for Luther. And he began to understand that what Paul was speaking of here was a righteousness that God in His grace was making available to those who would receive it passively, not those who would achieve it actively, but that would receive it by faith, and by which a person could be reconciled to a holy and righteous God.
Now there was a linguistic trick that was going on here too. And it was this, that the Latin word for justification that was used at this time in church history was—and it’s the word from which we get the English word justification—the Latin word justificare. And it came from the Roman judicial system. And the term justificare is made up of the word justus, which is justice or righteousness, and the verb, the infinitive facare, which means to make. And so, the Latin fathers understood the doctrine of justification is what happens when God, through the sacraments of the church and elsewhere, makes unrighteous people righteous.

But Luther was looking now at the Greek word that was in the New Testament, not the Latin word. The word dikaios, dikaiosune, which didn’t mean to make righteous, but rather to regard as righteous, to count as righteous, to declare as righteous. And this was the moment of awakening for Luther. He said, “You mean, here Paul is not talking about the righteousness by which God Himself is righteous, but a righteousness that God gives freely by His grace to people who don’t have righteousness of their own.”

And so Luther said, “Woa, you mean the righteousness by which I will be saved, is not mine?” It’s what he called a justitia alienum, an alien righteousness; a righteousness that belongs properly to somebody else. It’s a righteousness that is extra nos, outside of us. Namely, the righteousness of Christ. And Luther said, “When I discovered that, I was born again of the Holy Ghost. And the doors of paradise swung open, and I walked through.”

Amen and Amen to this good news to the ungodly!!!

Praise and Glory be to God Alone!!!

Hope this helps, and I hope this cleared up any confusion, this dumb person caused.

Your friend the ugly Calvinist
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Arsenios
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
And so Luther said, “Woa, you mean the righteousness by which I will be saved, is not mine?”

This is a big AHA moment for me!

Does the Reformed Church believe that we are saved by Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS???

That, if true, is huge!

Arsenios
 
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
This is a big AHA moment for me!

Does the Reformed Church believe that we are saved by Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS???

That, if true, is huge!

Arsenios

Yes, Arsenios, that how Lovely and Gracious our Father in heaven is. That he provided what we could not do, but God did it in His Son for the ungodly! And its "FREE", not earn, or any hidden stipulations in the fine print to be fulfilled by us. All of it was perfectly accomplish in the "Promised Seed" for those who believe in God who justifies the ungodly apart from works.

Abraham's Justification by Faith
Romans 4

1What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found? 2For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. 3For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. 4Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. 5But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. 6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Romans 8
No Condemnation in Christ

1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ladodgers6

Know what you believe and why you believe it
Site Supporter
Oct 6, 2015
2,123
743
Los Angeles
✟192,004.00
Country
United States
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
This is a big AHA moment for me!

Does the Reformed Church believe that we are saved by Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS???

That, if true, is huge!

Arsenios

Read this and tell me what you think?

Justification
Definition of Justification
The establishment of a sinner in a righteous standing before God. The verb dikaioo means “to declare or demonstrate to be righteous” (Matt. 11:19; 12:37; Luke 7:29; 10:29). The cognate nouns are dikaiosune (Rom. 1:17), dikaiosis (Rom. 4:25), and dikaioma (Rom. 1:32; 5:16, 18). Dikaiosune is always translated “righteousness” and denotes a perfect rectitude according to the standard of God’s character revealed in His law. The phrase “the righteousness of God” may denote the divine attribute of righteousness, or in the great soteriological teaching of Romans, the righteousness God has provided to give His people a title to eternal life (Rom. 3:22; 5:17, “the gift of righteousness”).

Dikaiosis is the action of declaring righteous, and dikaioma signifies the verdict, the judgment handed down by God. Lenski states the relationship between these two terms: dikaiosis is “a declaring righteous (action)”; dikaioma is “a declaring righteous and thereby placing in a permanent relationship or state even as the declaration stands permanently (result).” The language of Scripture, therefore, points to justification as God’s action in declaring His people righteous and placing them in a state of legal perfection before His law on the basis of the righteousness He provided freely for them in Christ.

There is no more scriptural or succinct theological definition of justification than that given by the Shorter Catechism: “Justification is an act of God’s free grace, wherein He pardoneth all our sins, and accepteth us as righteous in His sight, only for the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and received by faith alone” (Q. 33; see Westminster Confession of Faith, chap. 11).

The Two Elements in Justification
The two elements in justification are pardon and imputed righteousness. That is, the total obedience of Christ, both passive and active, avails for the believer. The vicarious atonement of Christ pays the debt of the believer’s sin, satisfies divine justice on his behalf, and renders it possible for God to be just and yet to justify him (Rom. 3:26). The imputed righteousness of Christ gives the believer “the adoption of children” (Gal. 4:5) and the title to eternal life.

Characteristics of Justification
1. Justification is an act, not a process (Rom. 5:1). It is something that has taken place in the justified, not something that is constantly taking place.

2. It is an act of the free grace of God toward sinners who are personally guilty and deserving of His wrath (Rom. 3:25).

3. It is a forensic act. It describes a change in the legal standing of the justified person. It does not describe the inner moral change God effects in all those whom He saves (2 Cor. 5:21). This is a vital truth. “God made him [Christ] to be sin for us” does not mean that Christ became morally corrupted. It solely describes a forensic transaction. Similarly, when as a result of that transaction we are “made the righteousness of God in him,” there is no reference to an inner moral change. It does not mean we are made morally sinless or pure. It means that God has radically changed our legal standing before His law. Thus justify means “to declare righteous,” not “to make righteous” (see Psa. 51:4). The statement in Rom. 5:19 that through Christ’s obedience “shall many be made righteous” uses the verb kathistemi which means “appoint, constitute.” It describes the place we occupy, not a purification of our nature.

4. It is a just act, for it proceeds on the ground of the imputed righteousness of Christ (Rom. 5:19). This text makes it clear that the righteousness of Christ’s obedience in life and death is imputed as the ground of justification. Christ is the righteousness of the justified (1 Cor. 1:30; Jer. 23:6). This answers the objection that unless justification is an actual infusion of grace and moral purity, God would be lying to declare any man righteous. Paul states bluntly that God “justifieth the ungodly” (Rom. 5:5), not the godly, the sanctified. How can the God of truth declare the ungodly righteous? By crediting all the perfect righteousness of Christ to their account (see Imputation).

5. It is a once-and-for-all act. It can neither be reversed nor repeated (Heb. 10:2; Rom. 8:30).

6. It is equally complete in all the justified. It cannot be increased or decreased (Rom. 5:19; 1 Cor. 1:30). All Christians are not equally mature, or holy. But all believers are equally “justified from all things” (Acts 13:39). They all have the same basis for their acceptance by God, the righteousness of Christ.

7. It invariably leads to glorification. No justified person can perish: “whom he justified, them he also glorified” (Rom. 8:30).

8. It is received by faith without works (Rom. 3:20–22; 4:1–8, 24; 5:1; Gal. 3:5–12; see Sola Fide). Some imagine that James contradicts this in James 2:18–26, notably in verse 24, “Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.”

There is no discrepancy between Paul and James. There is a difference of emphasis in response to the particular form of opposition each apostle was combatting. Paul was opposing the legalist who taught justification by works. James was opposing the antinomian (see Antinomianism) whose profession of justifying faith was united to a life of blatant ungodliness. Paul teaches that we are justified by faith as the sole instrument of reception, excluding works or any mixture of faith and works. James teaches that the faith that justifies is never alone. It is a living faith and therefore will express itself in good works. Good works are the evidence of the reality of justifying faith, not a substitute for it, a preparation for it, or an addition to it. Buchanan in his Justification, terms justification according to Paul actual justification, and justification according to James declarative justification.

Confusion about Justification
The doctrine of justification lies at the very heart of all biblical soteriology. Yet prior to the Reformation, confusion reigned on the meaning of the term. Even in very early times, the legal aspect of justification so clearly set forth in the NT was overlooked with the result that it was common for justification to be confused with regeneration or sanctification.

Justification Confused with Regeneration. Thomas Aquinas set the standard for medieval views on the subject. He taught that the first element in justification was the infusion of grace, on the ground of which the second element, pardon for sins, was given. Thus the Roman Catholic doctrine of justification in baptism was laid down. As Aquinas’ doctrine was developed, Rome came to assert more and more blatantly that the justification received in baptism could be increased or lost by human activity. This laid the ground for the Tridentine decree that justification depends at least in part upon personal merit.

Justification Confused with Sanctification. Confounding justification and sanctification led to the error of viewing justification as a process (e.g. , Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent, chap. 16, canon 24). This characteristic error of Romanism has found acceptance in many other quarters. Many early Anabaptists espoused it. To this day, it is the mark of all false gospels to equate justification with sanctification as the basis of a doctrine of salvation by works.

Distinctions Between Justification and Sanctification
Scripture carefully marks the difference between justification and sanctification. Berkhof notes:

“1. Justification removes the guilt of sin and restores the sinner to all the filial rights involved in his state as a child of God, including eternal inheritance. Sanctification removes the pollution of sin and renews the sinner ever increasingly in conformity with the image of God.

“2. Justification takes place outside of the sinner in the tribunal of God, and does not change his inner life, though the sentence is brought home to him subjectively. Sanctification on the other hand, takes place in the inner life of man and gradually affects his whole being.

“3. Justification takes place once for all. It is not repeated, neither is it a process; it is complete at once and for all time. There is no more or less in justification, man is either fully justified, or he is not justified at all. In distinction from it, sanctification is a continuous process, which is never completed in this life.

“4. While the meritorious cause of both lies in the merits of Christ, there is a difference in the efficient cause. Speaking economically, God the Father declares the sinner righteous, and God the Holy Spirit sanctifies him” (Systematic Theology, pp. 513, 514).

Justification the Same for OT and NT Believers
This justification is in all respects the same for believers under both the Old and New Testaments (Gal. 3:9, 13, 14; Rom. 4:1–6, 16). Abraham was justified on the very same ground and in the very same way as believers in the NT . We are “blessed with faithful Abraham.” He is the “father of all them that believe” (Rom. 4:11). David rejoiced in the very same justification we enjoy (Ps. 32:1, 2; Rom. 4:6). The only righteousness that ever gave any man a title to heaven is the righteousness of Christ freely imputed to him and received by faith alone.

Conclusion
Luther’s insight was accurate when he declared the biblical doctrine of justification to be articulus ecclesiae stantis aut cadentis, the article of faith that marks whether a church is standing or falling. Paul realized its immense importance to the entire gospel scheme and pronounced God’s curse on anyone, even an angel from heaven, who preached any other gospel (Gal. 1:8, 9). This is the gospel of which the apostle was “not ashamed … for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth” (Rom. 1:16).

Praise be to God Alone who justifies the ungodly!
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,149,208.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
This is a big AHA moment for me!

Does the Reformed Church believe that we are saved by Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS???

That, if true, is huge!

Arsenios
Yes. Here's what I think would be a traditional Reformed understanding:

Paul says our faith is imputed as righteousness. But what that means is that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith. That's what makes us acceptable to God. Underlying this is the understanding that righteousness includes moral perfection. No one (other than Christ) can be righteous, and without righteousness we can't be acceptable to God. So Christ's righteousness has to be imputed to us. This is based on faith. Through faith we are united with Christ. Through this union we experience his righteousness, though we never become fully righteous on our own. His righteousness acts on us and will eventually transform us. (The emphasis on our union with Christ is a distinctiveness of Calvin. Not all Calvinists necessarily follow.)

The transformation is obviously an ongoing process. Justification, however, isn't an ongoing process. It happens when we come to faith, and is based on Christ's righteousness being imputed to us. It is permanent. (Remember that classical Calvinism believes in the perseverance of the saints, i.e. that anyone who is truly justified will continue to have faith to the end, because faith comes from God, and God doesn't change his mind.)

I'm not sure how many mainline Reformed would still put it that way. There's an increasing understanding that righteousness is a status, being a proper member of the covenant people, and thus living in a way acceptable to God. It is based on God's own righteousness, which is his faithfulness is carrying out his covenant promises. That includes his commitment to save his people. Our righteousness doesn't require moral perfection, but it does require repentance. It is based on faith, when faith is given it broadest understanding. Thus God recognizes faith as both a sign of and the basis of righteousness. This explains the range of Paul's use of justify. Sometimes it seems to mean that God recognizes someone as righteous because they have faith. Other times it seems to mean that God sets people right with himself using faith. Both uses make sense because faith is the basis of righteousness.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: Arsenios
Upvote 0

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Arsenios said:
Does the Reformed Church believe that we are saved by Christ's RIGHTEOUSNESS?
Yes.

Digging up the obvious and placing it in plain sight so it can be seen clearly is always a good idea... I have been asking over and over what the Reformed understanding of Salvation actually IS, with no answer being offered in simple terms...

So the answer is this: The Reformed Church's understanding of Salvation is that it is Christ giving us His Righteousness? And that this is a Free Gift? And that when we have this Gift of the Righteousness of Christ, we are then righteous like Christ was Righteous?

And THEN we BEGIN repenting? And with our repenting we become progressively more and more sanctified? But until we begin repenting, the Righteousness of Christ coexists with our ongoing and as of yet unmitigated life of sin? Except that now that we have Christ's Righteousness IMPUTED (but not imparted) to us, we have the DESIRE to repent, and in the living out of that NEW DESIRE, we just keep on getting more and more holy?

I am trying to just get the basics laid out...

I will close this post and then look at your summary...

YES was a VERY helpful answer...

The Ancient Orthodox Faith believes that God Himself saves us, and not the Righteousness of Christ, but all that will come later...Christ...

Arsenios
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Arsenios

Russian Orthodox Winter Baptism, Valaam Monastery,
Site Supporter
Dec 25, 2015
2,827
982
Washington
✟151,120.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Constitution
Here's what I think would be a traditional Reformed understanding:

Paul says our faith is imputed as righteousness. But what that means is that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us through faith. That's what makes us acceptable to God. Underlying this is the understanding that righteousness includes moral perfection. No one (other than Christ) can be righteous, and without righteousness we can't be acceptable to God. So Christ's righteousness has to be imputed to us. This is based on faith. Through faith we are united with Christ. Through this union we experience his righteousness, though we never become fully righteous on our own. His righteousness acts on us and will eventually transform us. (The emphasis on our union with Christ is a distinctiveness of Calvin. Not all Calvinists necessarily follow.)

So if I have this aright, it is one's own personal believing that Christ's Righteousness is imputed to us that GIVES us Christ's Gift of the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Is that right? By my believing, I have the imputation, but not the fact, of the Righteousness of Christ... And this is what Salvation actually IS in the Reformed Church, yes?

If you believe this, you have salvation... Yes?

The transformation is obviously an ongoing process. Justification, however, isn't an ongoing process. It happens when we come to faith, and is based on Christ's righteousness being imputed to us. It is permanent. (Remember that classical Calvinism believes in the perseverance of the saints, i.e. that anyone who is truly justified will continue to have faith to the end, because faith comes from God, and God doesn't change his mind.)

Confirming my understanding...

Our righteousness doesn't require moral perfection,
but it does require repentance.

You can say that imputed Righteousness requires that we repent, but you simply CANNOT say that it requires repentance in order that we have it, because repentance is given AFTER we receive the imputation of the Righteousness of Christ... eg AFTER we have the Imputation of Righteousness...

It is based on faith, when faith is given it broadest understanding. Thus God recognizes faith as both a sign of and the basis of righteousness. This explains the range of Paul's use of justify. Sometimes it seems to mean that God recognizes someone as righteous because they have faith. Other times it seems to mean that God sets people right with Himself using faith. Both uses make sense because faith is the basis of righteousness.

Well, that, then, is why it then seems so bewilderingly self-contradictory...

Arsenios
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,149,208.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Digging up the obvious and placing it in plain sight so it can be seen clearly is always a good idea... I have been asking over and over what the Reformed understanding of Salvation actually IS, with no answer being offered in simple terms...

So the answer is this: The Reformed Church's understanding of Salvation is that it is Christ giving us His Righteousness? And that this is a Free Gift? And that when we have this Gift of the Righteousness of Christ, we are then righteous like Christ was Righteous?

And THEN we BEGIN repenting? And with our repenting we become progressively more and more sanctified? But until we begin repenting, the Righteousness of Christ coexists with our ongoing and as of yet unmitigated life of sin? Except that now that we have Christ's Righteousness IMPUTED (but not imparted) to us, we have the DESIRE to repent, and in the living out of that NEW DESIRE, we just keep on getting more and more holy?

I am trying to just get the basics laid out...

I will close this post and then look at your summary...

YES was a VERY helpful answer...

The Ancient Orthodox Faith believes that God Himself saves us, and not the Righteousness of Christ, but all that will come later...Christ...

Arsenios
Close but not quite. First, the Reformed definition of salvation includes both justification and sanctification. They are both consequences of the union with Christ which we participate in by faith. To fully restore the image of God we need not just forgiveness (justification) but new life.

You say "Christ giving us his righteousness." The usual statement is that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. I'm not sure that these are exactly the same thing. But remember, imputation is the basis for forgiveness / justification. That's only half the story.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Arsenios
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,149,208.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
So if I have this aright, it is one's own personal believing that Christ's Righteousness is imputed to us that GIVES us Christ's Gift of the imputation of Christ's righteousness. Is that right? By my believing, I have the imputation, but not the fact, of the Righteousness of Christ... And this is what Salvation actually IS in the Reformed Church, yes?
No. Faith isn’t just believing one specific thing. The Reformers considered faith to be primarily trusting God, though I think it goes beyond that. In my own theological thought, faith is Paul’s equivalent of what is in the Gospels being a follower of Christ.

In Calvin’s thought, faith unites us with Christ. That union with Christ is the basis for salvation. After all, salvation is from Christ.

I would say (and I think Calvin would as well) that it is because we are Christ’s, through faith, that his righteousness is imputed to us. It’s not a reward for believing something. Rather, imputation is because we are Christ's.

The imputation is the basis of God’s forgiveness, and thus our justification. But remember, salvation also includes new life. That also comes from the union with Christ in faith, but through the activity of the Holy Spirit regenerating us.

You can say that imputed Righteousness requires that we repent, but you simply CANNOT say that it requires repentance in order that we have it, because repentance is given AFTER we receive the imputation of the Righteousness of Christ... eg AFTER we have the Imputation of Righteousness…

Repentance is actually used in two ways. In the Gospels, it commonly means a change in direction, from being opposed to God to being a follower. In that sense, coming to faith is repentance. So repentance is there at the beginning, since the whole process is based on faith.

But repentance is also something we do day by day. The Christian life (“santification”) is based on continuing repentance. Calvin is clear about that.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Arsenios
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,149,208.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
I note that Calvinists are considered somewhat unusual in that "sanctification," i.e. new life, is considered part of salvation. For many Protestants salvation is accomplished once we are justified, at a point in time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Arsenios
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,250
10,567
New Jersey
✟1,149,208.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
In parallel with trying to explain traditional Reformed soteriology I’ve been thinking about my own. Here are some preliminary conclusions:

* I believe the idea that faith is following Jesus may be misleading. Looking at Rom 4, where Paul’s definition seems clearest, he seems to use it for trust in God. Jesus doesn’t talk about faith as much as Paul does, but in using children, he seems also to be pointing at trust. That’s particularly explicit in Rom 4:5.

* When Paul says that God justifies the ungodly, the context seems to be clear that he is reckoning them as forgiven, not in some way fixing their ungodliness.

* In what sense does justification depend upon faith? In Rom 4:5 Paul says that our trust in God’s forgiveness independent of works is reckoned as righteousness. I’m not convinced that Paul is setting up some test that replaces works, that our forgiveness depends upon God detecting some specific kind of belief. I think what he’s saying is that those who realize God’s forgiveness doesn’t depend upon anything they’ve done are right are accepted on that basis, but I’m not convinced that Paul thinks his opponents are damned. They’re just wrong.

I’m actually not convinced that Paul even intended to be giving us a full soteriology here. Rather, he’s dealing with a specific misunderstanding, and saying that God’s forgiveness doesn’t depend upon circumcision or any other specific action, including moral living.

Pulling back from Paul, I would say roughly the following:

* God loves everyone and has called us all to be part of his people. We start out accepted by God. I’m not sure about Orthodoxy, but almost all Western Christians believe that all infants and children are accepted. This is explicit in baptism, where’s God’s claim on us is made visible.

* We are expected to respond to this call, and will be held accountable for our response. This doesn’t mean that if we don’t meet some moral standard God rejects us. You can hold someone accountable without rejecting them.

* I do think some people are fundamentally opposed to God. It’s not that God is checking off good deeds and bad deeds and counting which predominate. But some people don’t accept his standards, and don’t care how they treat others and how they relate to God. Those people are in danger of being condemned in God’s judgement. This is often characterized as unrepentant sin.

I don’t want to turn repentance into another legalistic system. If God is sitting there with a list of everything we’ve ever done wrong and checking off whether we’ve repented of each one, we’re in trouble.

* But at least among Christians, that should be rare. Short of this kind of fundamental opposition to God, we are forgiven, and when we disobey we are disobedient children, not strangers.

If you look at Jesus’ teaching on judgement, where he talks about people being rejected it’s people who have spend their lives abusing others or those who reject him and what he teaches.
 
Upvote 0