JUSTIFICATION: δικαιωμα/δικαιωσις

[Arsenios]

A good friend of mine, who stands on the 5 pillars, asked me to open a thread on justification... So I am doing so, with the prayer that in it we may sort through some of its features in Traditional Theology...

In this prayer, I am opening it with the two Greek words Paul uses, ( Romans 5:16&18 ) which are both translated as 'justification', and which both have the "δικ-" root, the first pronounced di-kai'-o-ma and the second di-kai-o'-sis. The kai is pronounced, by Greeks, key, and by us more behemothic American types, like me, k+eye. The di- is Greeked with dee, and Americanized with d+if, minus the f... The first is accented on the anti-penultimate syllable, and the second on the penultimate... Both -o-s sound like a good ol' American oh-.

So dee-key'oh-mah and dee-key-oh'-sis IF you want to sound familiar to the Greeks... But then, should you decide to do wo with a Greek speaker, you have to be prepared to deal with their outburst of Greek words in reply, OK?

The first word is normally used to denote the RESULT of an action, and the second, which is closely related, is normally used to refer to the CONDITION of that result in a person or thing... For a plausible anglicized co-equivalent, if you fail to brush your teeth, and the food in your mouth abides and rots, you will have a condition known as halitosis... The SMELL of the rotten food in the Greek would be halitoma...

So for you 5-pointers, this is the thread to deal with the Biblical doctrine of Justification and its place in the Bible in Christian Theology... I just wanted to lay the groundwork a little, and see if anyone other than my friend might be interested...

The Dik- root, of course, literally means right, so justification, understood in THAT light, might and should be more literally be understood as RECTIFICATION...

Enough for the intro!

For a good and easily navigated interliner source online, see: Search for: Romans 5:16-18 - Strong's Interlinear Bible Search - Reference Desk - StudyLight.org

Arsenios

 

[~Anastasia~]

Definitely interested. A good topic. A little alongside one I've been wanting to explore for a long time. I'm not sure how much I'd be contributing, but I'd definitely like to follow along.

By "the five pillars" may I ask exactly what is meant? In order for discussion about various beliefs to be most profitable, we need to know (well I need to know LOL) exactly where the parts lie and where they come from. Are we comparing with Calvinism, Lutheran, Reformed broadly? (I'm guessing you mean Calvinism but I want to be sure.) Perhaps your friend can answer if he desires.

Thank you for bringing up the topic, and I think this is the perfect forum for it.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Possibly @St_Worm2 you might be interested as well?

 

[Arsenios]

Definitely interested. A good topic. A little alongside one I've been wanting to explore for a long time. I'm not sure how much I'd be contributing, but I'd definitely like to follow along.

By "the five pillars" may I ask exactly what is meant? In order for discussion about various beliefs to be most profitable, we need to know (well I need to know LOL) exactly where the parts lie and where they come from. Are we comparing with Calvinism, Lutheran, Reformed broadly? (I'm guessing you mean Calvinism but I want to be sure.) Perhaps your friend can answer if he desires.

Thank you for bringing up the topic, and I think this is the perfect forum for it.

My friend is a 5 Point Calvinist - A group of folks who stand un-movable in their faith that rests on the 5 Solas they see as efficaciously immovable in their Christian walk and talk... They are some of the most pious folks I know... And one of their basic tenets is "Justification by faith"... And by this, they mean one's personal faith in Christ... They believe that this faith is the bedrock of their saving relationship with Christ... The rest, of course, are more than welcome to enter the discussion... Lutherans, Reformed, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and searchers...

I can say this much, for the Eastern Orthodox Faith, that when one is baptized into Christ in this Confession, that person is pronounced, upon the anointing at the conclusion of the Service, as "Sanctified," as"Justified"... As "Joined" to Christ... The question we are addressing, or at least that I am addressing at this juncture, is not "Do we agree that Justification is an essential feature of our two Theologies?" but instead is: "What does justification MEAN in each of our two understandings?" So that by this means, we will at least understand each other... From my Orthodox perspective, I am constantly running into vitriolic opposition to Orthodox understandings on the part of many gifted Protestant contributors, and I have concluded that this is because when each of us states an idea in the same Biblical terms, we mean two very different things by these terms...

Hence, di-kai-o'-sis, to us, means the CONDITION of Right Relationship, or Rectified Relationship, with God... And for us, this means entry INTO the Body of God the Son, Jesus Christ, Who is the ONLY One Who actually HAS Right Relationship with God the Father... And for us, this blessed relationship occurs when the Body of Christ Who is Her Head BAPTIZES us INTO Christ at the Hands of Her Servants... As Ananias baptized Saul into Christ, of which Paul himself wrote: "As many as have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Gal 3:27

Arsenios

 

[~Anastasia~]

My friend is a 5 Point Calvinist - A group of folks who stand un-movable in their faith that rests on the 5 Solas they see as efficaciously immovable in their Christian walk and talk... They are some of the most pious folks I know... And one of their basic tenets is "Justification by faith"... And by this, they mean one's personal faith in Christ... They believe that this faith is the bedrock of their saving relationship with Christ... The rest, of course, are more than welcome to enter the discussion... Lutherans, Reformed, Roman Catholics, Anglicans, and searchers...

I can say this much, for the Eastern Orthodox Faith, that when one is baptized into Christ in this Confession, that person is pronounced, upon the anointing at the conclusion of the Service, as "Sanctified," as"Justified"... As "Joined" to Christ... The question we are addressing, or at least that I am addressing at this juncture, is not "Do we agree that Justification is an essential feature of our two Theologies?" but instead is: "What does justification MEAN in each of our two understandings?" So that by this means, we will at least understand each other... From my Orthodox perspective, I am constantly running into vitriolic opposition to Orthodox understandings on the part of many gifted Protestant contributors, and I have concluded that this is because when each of us states an idea in the same Biblical terms, we mean two very different things by these terms...

Hence, di-kai-o'-sis, to us, means the CONDITION of Right Relationship, or Rectified Relationship, with God... And for us, this means entry INTO the Body of God the Son, Jesus Christ, Who is the ONLY One Who actually HAS Right Relationship with God the Father... And for us, this blessed relationship occurs when the Body of Christ Who is Her Head BAPTIZES us INTO Christ at the Hands of Her Servants... As Ananias baptized Saul into Christ, of which Paul himself wrote: "As many as have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ." Gal 3:27

Arsenios

Very good. Thank you for expressing the exact question and the other position's foundation. I am most interested in the discussion. I will wait for now with questions I might ask - maybe later when they won't be a derail or distraction.

I strongly agree that many of the arguments have their root in the fact that we don't mean the same things when we say the same words. I greet visitors at our annual Greek festival and I have learned that if I explain our beliefs (when they ask) in words they will understand, I get all smiles and nods. Mention the SAME beliefs using our own "language" and faces immediately darken and they are set to argue.

We would do well to understand one another. While our beliefs are not identical, at least we do well to know what we actually agree and disagree about.

 

[St_Worm2]

Possibly @St_Worm2 you might be interested as well?

Hi Anastasia, yes, I hope to participate (though my surgery recovery will prevent me from being as involved as I'd like to be unfortunately).

Yours and His,
David

 

[com7fy8]

The Dik- root, of course, literally means right, so justification, understood in THAT light, might and should be more literally be understood as RECTIFICATION...

Or, I think, the root can mean just, which means right. And so justification can mean to be made right. And this can have different meanings, including how people try to make themselves right, about an issue, because they are in denial about how they are wrong.

I personally understand that justification means God making us right.

This starts with being joined to Jesus >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

This involves what I explain as being like joining a champion football team. First you join the right team; this is like first getting right simply by being put together with Jesus so a person is no longer in "the power of Satan" but is with God > Acts 26:18.

But then there is the process of how you adjust to the team and train so you can function as a member of the championship team. First you got the track record of the team, simply by joining the champion team, but now you need to train and learn the ways and relate well with others on the team.

By being joined to Jesus, baptized into Jesus, we have gained His record of His death and burial and resurrection.

But now we need to grow and learn and become stronger and learn God's ways of love and how He has us relating with Him and with one another in His love. This makes us more and more right, the way His love is so right. So, this ongoing process of justification has us becoming in our character how God is in His love >

"Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world." (1 John 4:17)

Justification, then, according to my understanding is not very different than sanctification which means to be made holy. Being holy is being right; being right or just is being holy. The words bring out different aspects of the same thing, I consider. Both have to do with how God's love is and how we become and live in this love which is so right and holy.

 

[~Anastasia~]

Hi Anastasia, yes, I hope to participate (though my surgery recovery will prevent me from being as involved as I'd like to be unfortunately).

Yours and His,
David

Ah I did not know. Prayers for your recovery!

I may not be able to participate much either but am interested.

 

[Arsenios]

Or, I think, the root can mean just, which means right. And so justification can mean to be made right. And this can have different meanings, including how people try to make themselves right, about an issue, because they are in denial about how they are wrong.
I personally understand that justification means God making us right.

You are so right... When that root is found in the Greek usages, dik- , it has the power to unite itself in ways that English does not seem to have a single root co-equivalent... For instance, if we use just, we rejoice in the term "justification" and justify, but fail when we approach the term "justeousness"... And when we rejoice in the term "righteousness", we fail in the term "rightification"... So I tried "rectification", which means 'being made right', with rect- = right- And I failed to find a similar term for just... Perhaps you might have one in your bag?

This starts with being joined to Jesus >

"But he who is joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him." (1 Corinthians 6:17)

ο δε κολλωμενος τω κυριω εν πνευμα εστιν

Now he being joined to the Lord one spirit is...

So now, given the literal, I have to look at context... Its surface simply means that one who is in the process of being joined to the Lord is not double-minded, but is one spirit... However if it is referring to Baptism, it can mean as your translation indicates...

Here is a summary of the context:
1Co 6:16
What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body?
For two, saith He, shall be one flesh.

This clearly indicates that his pastoral teaching here is against a Christian joining with a Harlot...

Hence it refers to single-mindedness, even though it has implications beyond the literal... Because the "is being joined" is not "is joined" and is not "has been joined"... It indicates an ongoing process of being joined, and this even in the face of the fact that such a person is, as Paul just mentioned,

1Co 6:11
And such were some of you:
But ye have been washed,
But ye have been sanctified,
But ye have been justified
In the name of the Lord Jesus,
and
In the Spirit of our God.

I re-translated the three "have been"s from the three "are"s normally used... Because they are three passive aorist indicatives, and not passive present participles like our 6:16 is...

And this is the teaching of the Church as I am understanding it - What we have received on earth is an earnest, and not the fullness, of the Gifts of Christ, so that we are already, because we have been, are now being, and finally will be in the Age to Come, washed, sanctified and justified... And in this, we live in an ongoing state of suspension between ALREADY and NOT YET FULLY...

This is pre-figured in the Old Testament by the crossing of the Israelites through the waters of the Jordan [Baptism] INTO the Promised Land, [the Kingdom of Heaven] and therein finding the Goliath Giants that we yet must overcome to make our Salvation secure, persevering against them to the end... So that the greatest opposition we will find is after we are entered into the Kingdom of Heaven...

And I love your team explanation, even though Paul speaks of it as "the race set before us...", for you are describing the Church, the Body of Christ, Who is Her Head, wherein "All who have been Baptized into Christ have put on Christ..." And therein we move on to maturity in the Faith, telos, perfecting... As you describe it below:

This involves what I explain as being like joining a champion football team. First you join the right team; this is like first getting right simply by being put together with Jesus so a person is no longer in "the power of Satan" but is with God > Acts 26:18.

But then there is the process of how you adjust to the team and train so you can function as a member of the championship team. First you got the track record of the team, simply by joining the champion team, but now you need to train and learn the ways and relate well with others on the team.

A good analogy...

By being joined to Jesus, baptized into Jesus, we have gained His record of His death and burial and resurrection.

I would only quibble and say that we have not merely gained His record of Deeds, but we have gained Christ Himself, as the very members of His Body, already in an earnest part, and not yet fully as in the Age to Come...

As you go on to affirm:

But now we need to grow and learn and become stronger and learn God's ways of love and how He has us relating with Him and with one another in His love. This makes us more and more right, the way His love is so right. So, this ongoing process of justification has us becoming in our character how God is in His love >

We pray so...

"In this has love been perfected with us:
that we should have boldness in the day of judgment;
because as He is,
so we are in this world." (1 John 4:17)

And this defines the goal of our being perfected in Him...

Justification, then, according to my understanding is not very different than sanctification which means to be made holy. Being holy is being right; being right or just is being holy. The words bring out different aspects of the same thing, I consider. Both have to do with how God's love is and how we become and live in this love which is so right and holy.

Great post - I am thinking that the two have different origins of action...
And great differences in appearance...

But I will keep my personal thoughts at bay for the moment...

Thank-you...

Arsenios

 

[Arsenios]

My surgery recovery will prevent me from being as involved as I'd like to be unfortunately.

May your recovery go well -

Follow along even if you cannot participate -

Medical issues can be boring...

Arsenios

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Hi Anastasia, yes, I hope to participate (though my surgery recovery will prevent me from being as involved as I'd like to be unfortunately).

Yours and His,
David

Take your time and preserve your strength St_Worm2.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

May your recovery go well -

Follow along even if you cannot participate -

Medical issues can be boring...

Arsenios

And very frustrating!!

 

[Arsenios]

Take your time and preserve your strength St_Worm2.

So is that is sailboat on her side in the water in your Avatar?
An unballasted sailboat?

Arsenios

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

So is that is sailboat on her side in the water in your Avatar?
An unballasted sailboat?

Arsenios

Yes, a sail boat. 200 lb fin keel; 23' long, 5' wide. Steam bent oak frames with 5/8 ceder plank. Spruce mast, 28'8". It was rotten when I got it for nothing, along with a bunch of wood and I fixed it up over winter one year. She was very stable underway, but tippie like a canoe at the dock. It was stupid fast too. I got four years out of it, but time won the battle, and the last year I launched it, I could not keep it tight.
I was knocked down more than once. This photo was taken from the conservation authority/Police patrol boat just before they towed me to shore, helped me right and bail it. It was gentle, I am standing on the mast floating in about 20' of water, only wet to my ankles, having a smoke. I did not lose the 6 pack of beer I had with me.

Couple boats since, and now my back is rebelling (getting old sucks), so i have gone back to my old hobby; shooting... but I just picked up the most recent copy of "Wooden Boat". This was the 4th wooden boat I owned, and we always rent Cedar Strip Geisler boats when we go to the fishing camp up north.

My present boat, a Minuet, I am selling to a young guy I introduced to sailing, and whom I have mentored. Last year, I loaned him the boat for the season, and he is starting to race very well; instead of being last place, he now is in the upper half, and the last race, a strong 3rd. The Minuet has a similar form the the one in the photo, but has a full keel, and 20% of it's weight is in the bottom of the keel.

Do you sail also?

Last race I sailed, I took second, I'm on the left (2014); second was a small bottle of rum:

Good winds in that race; this is me in the Minuet 1/3 the way through the final leg:

I miss sailing, but my back does not!

 

[Arsenios]

Yes, a sail boat.

I asked the right question then... Your two hundred pounds [I know, I know but I am a kind person sometimes] standing on the mast concealed both it and the sail, it would seem...

200 lb fin keel;

A slice of iron below, and a winch on the c/b case?

23' long, 5' wide.

A dough dish, no question... But shapely enough nontheless!

Steam bent oak frames with 5/8 ceder plank.

Western Red or Eastern White? I am guessing the latter...

Spruce mast, 28'8".

Sitka then... Probably still good... Probably needs a hull...

It was rotten when I got it for nothing,

You overpaid...

along with a bunch of wood

But were compensated...

and I fixed it up over winter one year.

Then rewarded...

She was very stable underway, but tippie like a canoe at the dock.

Neither of which is apparent in your avatar...

It was stupid fast too.

DoughD's are like that - Fast and unstable... I knew a girl once...

I got four years out of it, but time won the battle, and the last year I launched it, I could not keep it tight.

It is the reconstruction that mattered, not its longevity...
God talks to people rebuilding a boat...

I was knocked down more than once.

Probably didn't help, right?

This photo was taken from the conservation authority/Police patrol boat just before they towed me to shore, helped me right and bail it.

Good to see authoritarians who see their job as a service...

It was gentle, I am standing on the mast floating in about 20' of water, only wet to my ankles, having a smoke.

Looks like the floating mast kept her on her side - Plus 200 pounds of slice on her bottom... No help from your tootsies...

I did not lose the 6 pack of beer I had with me.

You must have gotten knocked down in the first 10 minutes of sailing to have had any beer left in the bottles at all...

Couple boats since, and now my back is rebelling (getting old sucks), so i have gone back to my old hobby; shooting... but I just picked up the most recent copy of "Wooden Boat". This was the 4th wooden boat I owned, and we always rent Cedar Strip Geisler boats when we go to the fishing camp up north.

Something good about boats... And Shooting... I no longer have my Vol.1 No.1 issue of WoodenBoat... That dream died, along with all the others... Glory be to God!

My present boat, a Minuet, I am selling to a young guy I introduced to sailing, and whom I have mentored. Last year, I loaned him the boat for the season, and he is starting to race very well; instead of being last place, he now is in the upper half, and the last race, a strong 3rd. The Minuet has a similar form the the one in the photo, but has a full keel, and 20% of it's weight is in the bottom of the keel.

You have been greatly blessed...

Do you sail also?

Not much anymore... About the only sailing I do these days is yard-sailing, and I have finally managed to get it into the mush of my skull that other people's junk is junk... I am slow, you see...

Last race I sailed, I took second, I'm on the left (2014); second was a small bottle of rum:

Good winds in that race; this is me in the Minuet 1/3 the way through the final leg:

I miss sailing, but my back does not!

You look younger than I feel - I suffer the same malaise...

Miles and miles under our keels, my Friend...

Born in the 40s?

I was 44 in '88

Nice to meet you - I too had a pile of lumber and boat plans...

Long ago, and ever here...

Arsenios

ps - Where do you find your name's sake beer - Old Lutheran...
My Spiritual Father is one of those...
Viking Helmet and all!
A recovering one, I should add...
His Monastery looks like a Viking Village...

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

I asked the right question then... Your two hundred pounds [I know, I know but I am a kind person sometimes] standing on the mast concealed both it and the sail, it would seem...


A slice of iron below, and a winch on the c/b case?



A dough dish, no question... But shapely enough nontheless!



Western Red or Eastern White? I am guessing the latter...



Sitka then... Probably still good... Probably needs a hull...



You overpaid...



But were compensated...



Then rewarded...



Neither of which is apparent in your avatar...



DoughD's are like that - Fast and unstable... I knew a girl once...



It is the reconstruction that mattered, not its longevity...
God talks to people rebuilding a boat...



Probably didn't help, right?



Good to see authoritarians who see their job as a service...



Looks like the mast kep her on her side - Plus 200 pounds of slice on her bottom... No help from your tootsies...



You must have gotten knocked down in the first 10 minutes of sailing to have had any beer left at all...



Something good about boats... And Shooting... I no longer have my Vol.1 No.1 issue of WoodenBoat... That dream died, along with all the others... Glory be to God!



You have been greatly blessed...



Not much anymore... About the only sailing I do these days is yard-sailing, and I have finally managed to get it into the mush of my skull that other people's junk is junk... I am slow, you see...



You look younger than I feel - I suffer the same malaise...

Miles and miles under our keels, my Friend...

Born in the 40s?

I was 44 in '88

Nice to meet you - I too had a pile of lumber and boat plans...

Long ago, and ever here...

Arsenios

It seems we are kindred spirits!

My first wooden sail boat had a steel centerboard, this one was fixed with a 2" thick "wing" on the bottom of it; solid steel.

Original planks were pine, and judging by the square steel nails, built originally sometime between 1880 and 1910. The lumber that came with it was western red (old growth, clear and tight grain).

I built the mast out of hand selected eastern white spruce (structural stuff) scarfed, hollowed, and laminated with urethane glue. Diamond stays at the top, spreaders for the main stays and baby-stays 1/3 up. Adjustable back-stay and a short boomkin on the stern. Beautiful in the water, long overhang fore an aft. While the hull was 23' at rest the water line was about 13; very round in section.

I got into sailing because of a book called "Skiffs and Scooners" I photocopied the small scale plans for a 14' flat bottom skiff with some rocker, centerboard, lapstrake (three strakes per side) and a sprit rig with small jib. I built it over one winter in a derelict garage with a leaky roof and no heat. It sailed great! I was hooked!

No, I was born in '59.

 

[Arsenios]

It seems we are kindred spirits!

Not for the faint of heart!

My first wooden sail boat had a steel centerboard, this one was fixed with a 2" thick "wing" on the bottom of it; solid steel.

The old "Scheel-Keel" winger that won the America's Cup for the Aussies...

The shallow draft version now being tried is merely the extension of the flat bottom out beyond the sides an inch or three or five... Reports of it going to windward in a foot of water...

Original planks were pine, and judging by the square steel nails, built originally sometime between 1880 and 1910. The lumber that came with it was western red (old growth, clear and tight grain).

Proving that few of my theories turn out to be true... Probably three-leaf yellow pine... We have tons of it here in the PacNW... Bark turns into a plated yellow in old growth trees... When burned up in forest fires, the seeds genetically modify and produce a rapid growth Lodgepole Pine with two leaves, and the cones of these sprout up with the three leaf tree... I was shocked to learn of it - It is the closest thing that biologists have gotten to proving Lamark right...

I built the mast out of hand selected eastern white spruce (structural stuff) scarfed, hollowed, and laminated with urethane glue. Diamond stays at the top, spreaders for the main stays and baby-stays 1/3 up. Adjustable back-stay and a short boomkin on the stern. Beautiful in the water, long overhang fore an aft. While the hull was 23' at rest the water line was about 13; very round in section.

Is it still sailing? That mast I mean... I mean, hulls come and go, but masts and hardware survive and inspire the construction of more hulls...

I got into sailing because of a book called "Skiffs and Scooners"

Pete Culler's book?

I photocopied the small scale plans for a 14' flat bottom skiff with some rocker, centerboard, lapstrake (three strakes per side) and a sprit rig with small jib. I built it over one winter in a derelict garage with a leaky roof and no heat. It sailed great! I was hooked!

That should just about do it - Building a boat is a good way to transition a kid to adulthood without losing the kid in the process, as abusive parents and wars tend to do, mind you!

No, I was born in '59.

Another of my great theories down the tubes - A product of your white hair and moose stash, no doubt... You have a wonderful kindness in your eyes, bespeaking an older pereson who has been kind to his years - I missed the youth of your facial skin... Hence my false theory...

So I am building a little puddle-duck racer for the kids here at the Church, but serving full time and working full time and posting here full time leaves little time to mqake progress...

I do have a couple of unused masts with sails, mind you!

I have sailed to Mexico in a 21' Venture...
And back...
And spent a lot of time on the water, never working at racing...
Did learn about mountain lakes...
Not like ocean sailing...

We do need to Justify this conversation, if you feel so inclined...///
You can always, of course, decline, if you feel so dis-inclined...\\\

Sailors normally have a good common sense about reality...

As do airplane pilots...

Meanwhile, I commend you to this site, with which you may already be subscribed:

Watch Quality Sailing Videos & Learn How to Build a Wooden Boat from the Pros

Arsenios

 

[ladodgers6]

A good friend of mine, who stands on the 5 pillars, asked me to open a thread on justification... So I am doing so, with the prayer that in it we may sort through some of its features in Traditional Theology...

In this prayer, I am opening it with the two Greek words Paul uses, ( Romans 5:16&18 ) which are both translated as 'justification', and which both have the "δικ-" root, the first pronounced di-kai'-o-ma and the second di-kai-o'-sis. The kai is pronounced, by Greeks, key, and by us more behemothic American types, like me, k+eye. The di- is Greeked with dee, and Americanized with d+if, minus the f... The first is accented on the anti-penultimate syllable, and the second on the penultimate... Both -o-s sound like a good ol' American oh-.

So dee-key'oh-mah and dee-key-oh'-sis IF you want to sound familiar to the Greeks... But then, should you decide to do wo with a Greek speaker, you have to be prepared to deal with their outburst of Greek words in reply, OK?

The first word is normally used to denote the RESULT of an action, and the second, which is closely related, is normally used to refer to the CONDITION of that result in a person or thing... For a plausible anglicized co-equivalent, if you fail to brush your teeth, and the food in your mouth abides and rots, you will have a condition known as halitosis... The SMELL of the rotten food in the Greek would be halitoma...

So for you 5-pointers, this is the thread to deal with the Biblical doctrine of Justification and its place in the Bible in Christian Theology... I just wanted to lay the groundwork a little, and see if anyone other than my friend might be interested...

The Dik- root, of course, literally means right, so justification, understood in THAT light, might and should be more literally be understood as RECTIFICATION...

Enough for the intro!

For a good and easily navigated interliner source online, see: Search for: Romans 5:16-18 - Strong's Interlinear Bible Search - Reference Desk - StudyLight.org

Arsenios

Thanks for this, I will read it, study it, and reply tomorrow.

 

[anna ~ grace]

This may or may not be relevant, but I'm in the middle of reading a book about Saint Teresa of Lisieux, and her theology of love, becoming little, doing works in the strength and love of God, and divine mercy. It's a good read, and kind of ties into this.

 

[MarkRohfrietsch]

Not for the faint of heart!



The old "Scheel-Keel" winger that won the America's Cup for the Aussies...

The shallow draft version now being tried is merely the extension of the flat bottom out beyond the sides an inch or three or five... Reports of it going to windward in a foot of water...



Proving that few of my theories turn out to be true... Probably three-leaf yellow pine... We have tons of it here in the PacNW... Bark turns into a plated yellow in old growth trees... When burned up in forest fires, the seeds genetically modify and produce a rapid growth Lodgepole Pine with two leaves, and the cones of these sprout up with the three leaf tree... I was shocked to learn of it - It is the closest thing that biologists have gotten to proving Lamark right...



Is it still sailing? That mast I mean... I mean, hulls come and go, but masts and hardware survive and inspire the construction of more hulls...



Pete Culler's book?



That should just about do it - Building a boat is a good way to transition a kid to adulthood without losing the kid in the process, as abusive parents and wars tend to do, mind you!



Another of my great theories down the tubes - A product of your white hair and moose stash, no doubt... You have a wonderful kindness in your eyes, bespeaking an older pereson who has been kind to his years - I missed the youth of your facial skin... Hence my false theory...

So I am building a little puddle-duck racer for the kids here at the Church, but serving full time and working full time and posting here full time leaves little time to mqake progress...

I do have a couple of unused masts with sails, mind you!

I have sailed to Mexico in a 21' Venture...
And back...
And spent a lot of time on the water, never working at racing...
Did learn about mountain lakes...
Not like ocean sailing...

We do need to Justify this conversation, if you feel so inclined...///
You can always, of course, decline, if you feel so dis-inclined...\\\

Sailors normally have a good common sense about reality...

As do airplane pilots...

Meanwhile, I commend you to this site, with which you may already be subscribed:

Watch Quality Sailing Videos & Learn How to Build a Wooden Boat from the Pros

Arsenios

The mast is currently hanging from the rafters of the pavillion at Wildwood Sailing Club. Seems no one else has the nerve to throw that big a rig on a boat where the club limits boat length to 24' and draft to 40". I was about 30 when I built that boat, yes, I do believe it was Pete Cullers book! BTW, I flew recreationally for a time, had a 46 Aeronca Champ.

As in everything, it always comes down to three kinds of people; doers, watchers and followers.

I need to get things back on topic:

Yes, real sailors are a pragmatic sort, but as in anything there are those who, despite having boats in the water, sit on the sidelines; too windy, too calm, don't like the race rules, etc. You see the same thing in gun shops; I can't get service, because the gun-store groupies are always huddled around the counter, never buying anything, but talking a good game. (to keep the discussion on topic), hence why I have no problem holding the Confessional Lutheran position on Justification.

Just like the shade tree sailers and the gunshop groupies, people often become mired down in explaining and understanding, rather than accepting, doing and living within the justification so freely offered.

On the water there are natural sailors; there are novices, there are those who never quite get it and will always struggle; but they are "sailing". Justification and Sanctification are so intrinsically linked to faith that one can not have faith and not be justified and sanctified. Much as if we sit in our boat tied to the dock, we never sail. If we don't live our faith, we may never realize the joy and peace that comes with the gifts of justification and sanctification.

Dona Nobis Pacem!