Juster on the dangers in the HR movement.

[Hoshiyya]

Maybe it is not a low view of the old testament in the way you see and speak of it. Maybe it is the excelling things the Church has in Christ which you are reacting to, do you think? Especially when it comes to the traditional Churches, and their ministration and priesthood. Which excelling glory makes the former to seem to have no glory in comparison?
2 Cor 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

I have no idea what you're saying. Makes no sense.

Many Christians - and I have personal experience of this - speak of and portray the Old Testament in distinctly negative terms. It is seen as Judeo-centric, Judeo-supremacist, antequated, primitive, concerned with strange things, illogical in its arguments, contradictory, etc.

Many Protestants have a deep-seated anti-authorian bent. Hence any idea of priesthood is seen with skepticism (an important paradigm for Mormonism), and the Levite priesthood ("which killed Jesus") is seen to be as bad as the Catholic priesthood.

It seems to me that many, many Christians have the following interpretation of the Pentateuch:
The actual laws of the Torah are human inventions to oppress the common man and exalt a small elite.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Actually, I think MJs are quite confused about the Torah. It's been an ongoing debate on this forum for years and years.

The Torah is really not that complicated. Everyone- Jews, Gentiles, keep the laws that apply to them and no individual can, does or needs to keep all 613 laws.

Furthermore, people keep the laws in the way that they have received. Rabbinic Jews have several ways, Christians have different ways. In some aspects the Christian way of keeping a Torah commandment is older than a Rabbinic way- think about that!

A great author to touch base with on this topic is the late Messianic scholar and leading light Jean-Marie Lustiger.



I bring it up because your insinuation, and the position of many on the far fringes of this discussion is that the Church should be keeping the Torah in the manner that those same certain individuals who hold this position assume.

The impact of this kind of thinking is fraught with potholes and theological confusion. By trying to cram a modern Rabbinic understanding and application of the Torah into a Yeshua flavoured NT paradigm one attempts to shove a square peg into a round hole. It ends up in a world of hurt and mess. It creates a bizarre twist on RT. It strips the true Israel of her distinctions. It ignores the real important questions. It elevates the pilpul of humans above the faith that says the Holy Spirit guides God's people. It re-writes the plain words of the NT and even ignores entire books contained therein. All theology is reduced to a particular version of the laws, and all integrity is measured by adherence to Holy Days and practices often as defined by those who utterly rejected Yeshua and therefore outside of His authority and direction.

By saying "Christians don't keep the law" you are in fact saying that "Christians are unfaithful to God", which to me is flat out slanderous and a comment worthy of a Muslim jihadist. You are also implying that God has abandoned His people to rampant, tyrannical heresy for 2000 years and that only now some Americans with Google and a problem with confirmation bias have it all figured out. I find that a preposterous and unfaithful proposition, and completely against the nature of God Himself.

"By saying "Christians don't keep the law" you are in fact saying that "Christians are unfaithful to God", "

No I am saying they don't use (nor see a need to use) Tzitzit, Mezuzah, or keep Sukkot, etc.

And I am pretty sure most patriarchs and popes would agree to that.

One might as well say that frogs keep Torah, because there is no law that actually applies to them, so they keep Torah by not doing anything. As long as they are fruitful and multiply, they "keep Torah". You can say the frog is equally obedient to the Shaari'a code as well, since it doesn't really require anything of him either. You can say the frog is equally obedient to the Norse religion, and to Scientology, as well. What a pan-religious frog we now have !

In context however, keeping Torah means more than just multiplying. Keeping Torah, as I used the phrase, obviously and clearly referred to keeping the mitzvot laid out in the Pentateuch.

"your insinuation"

What is my insinuation?
You seem to know better than me what my views are ?

By the way, come on. A Muslim Jihadist ?
Are you proud of that comment ?

A tad ad hominem.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Nope. I judge a theology by its official documents, not by the failings of its adherents.

If so, then chances are your comments on religions apply to theories/theoretical religions, rather than to existing (de facto) religions.

 

[daq]

ὁ ἀνὴρ πάντα τῇ γυναῖκι εἶπεν. = The man told his wife everything.
ἡ παῖς τὴν μητέρα ἐζήτειν ἐν τῇ ἀγορᾷ. = The girl was looking for her mother in the marketplace.

The article is often used in Greek instead of the possessive pronoun. In fact, often the addition of a possessive pronoun refers us to something that belongs to another person rather than the subject.

ὁ ἄνθρωπος τὸν υἱὸν ηὗρε τὴν μάχαιραν ἐν τῇ δεξιᾷ ἔχοντα. = The man found his son holding his (the son's) knife in his right hand.
ὁ ἄνθρωπος τὸν υἱὸν ηὗρε τὴν μάχαιραν αὐτοῦ ἐν τῇ δεξιᾷ ἔχοντα. = The man found his son holding his (the father's) knife in his right hand.

There is nothing truly significant about the lack of a possessive pronoun in a verse like what you just quoted. There is really only one cross to which the handwriting of ordinances is said to have been nailed: that of Jesus. Whether or not you are called to "take up your cross daily" has nothing at all to do with this verse.

If one has not taken up his/her own stake or cross in the manner prescribed by the Master-Teacher then how would the same know either way what this passage or even Paul for that matter speaks of?

Colossians 2:14 ASV - American Standard (GNT Morph Texts)
14. having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;

Colossians 2:14 RSV - Revised Standard (GNT Morph Texts)
14. having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Colossians 2:14 YLT - Young's Literal (Textus Receptus)
14. having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

Therefore if your eye offends you pluck him out and cast him from you.
Mortify your own "members" which are upon your own "earth".
One may use the law sin and death to put them to sleep.

This term "the cross" is yet another analogy which applies to all talmidim of Yeshua.
Are you ready to join the faithful and beginning cutting off those unruly shepherds from your midst?
Three evil shepherds I cut off in one year . . . with Torah.

 

[AbbaLove]

Most Christians will tell you even the 10 Commandments are nailed to the cross and all they have to obey is the "Royal Law of love."

Paul wrote, “Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah” (Romans 3:31 CJB)

Paul also wrote, “But this I do admit to you: I worship the God of our fathers in accordance with the Way (which they call a sect). I continue to believe everything that accords with the Torah and everything written in the Prophets” (Acts 24:14 CJB).

Paul also wrote, “He wiped away the bill of charges against us. Because of the regulations, it stood as a testimony against us; but he removed it by nailing it to the execution-stake” (Colossians 2:14 CJB)

The expression “the bill of charges” or “our legal indebtedness” or "the handwriting of requirements" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through our acceptance of the sacrifice of the Messiah Yeshua that our penalty was wiped out, but only the penalty, not the law!

“For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26 CJB)

Paul also wrote, “For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Gal 5:14 CJB)

“Don’t take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am Adonai (Lev 19:18 CJB)

 

[Hoshiyya]

What Paul wrote and what Christians believe are often two different things. (Same goes for any religion: the actual belief, and what their documents say, are often not in line.)

No less than three times in the New Testament does Paul forbid his followers from consuming blood. Yet today, blood sausage and blood pudding is considered a delicacy in many Christian nations. Consuming blood is against the New Testament, but nevertheless a practice of Christians. This is in large part due to a belief that the religion is allowed to evolve and "mature" with time, moving away from "primitive taboos".

 

[yonah_mishael]

If one has not taken up his/her own stake or cross in the manner prescribed by the Master-Teacher then how would the same know either way what this passage or even Paul for that matter speaks of?

Colossians 2:14 ASV - American Standard (GNT Morph Texts)
14. having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;

Colossians 2:14 RSV - Revised Standard (GNT Morph Texts)
14. having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Colossians 2:14 YLT - Young's Literal (Textus Receptus)
14. having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

Therefore if your eye offends you pluck him out and cast him from you.
Mortify your own "members" which are upon your own "earth".
One may use the law sin and death to put them to sleep.

This term "the cross" is yet another analogy which applies to all talmidim of Yeshua.
Are you ready to join the faithful and beginning cutting off those unruly shepherds from your midst?
Three evil shepherds I cut off in one year . . . with Torah.

Oops... forgot who I was talking to for a minute. It totally slipped my mind that reason and good sense don't work in this corner. No esotericism, no go. Sorry.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Nope. I judge a theology by its official documents, not by the failings of its adherents.

Okay, which Christian denominations teach Torah adherence?

What makes you think just because someone goes to church on Saturday or attempting the laws of kashrut that they are suddenly "teaching adherence to the Torah"? Where in the Torah does it say Gentiles are bound to keep the sign of the Covenant between God and Israel? True Torah adherence would teach that Gentiles are not bound to the Sabbath. Right?

Wrong. This is what YHVH says:

Isaiah 56:1
Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
for soon my salvation will come,
and my righteousness be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.” 3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from his people”;


and this is what Yeshua Messiah teaches:

If you would enter life, keep the commandments.

Are you teaching a replacement theology? Israel's distinction is no longer important?

When it comes to moral commandments, there is no distinction.

Your question misses the point completely. You need to figure out what "Torah adherence" really means before you launch into fast-food dogma.

I think not. Torah adherence means to keep God's Law and precepts. It means believing that God's Law is eternal but administered through more than one covenant.
You've not answered any of the questions put to you up to this point. I think you're the one who should be asking, "Would you like fries with that?"

 

[annier]

I have no idea what you're saying. Makes no sense.

My post was speaking to the things Contra previously mentioned to you. It was intended as additional thought concerning that exchange.
The excelling glory of the ministration of service of the historical church....through the new testament in Christ.
A Copy and paste of the salient points of the excelling ministration in Christ.... ContrMundum mentioned...

"I dare say that I have met and personally know more bishops, priests and pastors than most people"
"I guarantee that there is more Torah in an Eastern Orthodox/Latin/Western C liturgy ".
You people just aren't educated enough in your religious "learning" to see it. Where are your priests? Where is your Ner Tamid? Is your centre of worship based on the Temple? Do you have a sanctuary? Is your shewbread holy korban or thrown in the garbage at the end of the service? etc etc.

 

[AbbaLove]

If one has not taken up his/her own stake or cross in the manner prescribed by the Master-Teacher then how would the same know either way what this passage or even Paul for that matter speaks of?

Colossians 2:14 ASV - American Standard (GNT Morph Texts)
14. having blotted out the bond written in ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us: and he hath taken it out that way, nailing it to the cross;

Colossians 2:14 RSV - Revised Standard (GNT Morph Texts)
14. having canceled the bond which stood against us with its legal demands; this he set aside, nailing it to the cross.

Colossians 2:14 YLT - Young's Literal (Textus Receptus)
14. having blotted out the handwriting in the ordinances that is against us, that was contrary to us, and he hath taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross;

Paul wrote, “He wiped away the bill of charges against us. Because of the regulations, it stood as a testimony against us; but he removed it by nailing it to the execution-stake” (Colossians 2:14 CJB)

The expression “cancelled the bond” or "the handwriting of the ordinances" or "the bill of charges" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through our acceptance of the sacrifice of the Messiah Yeshua that our penalty was wiped out, but only the penalty, not the Law!

“For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26 CJB)

Paul also wrote, “For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Gal 5:14 CJB)

“Don’t take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am Adonai (Lev 19:18 CJB)


[/SIZE][/FONT]

 

[AbbaLove]

What Paul wrote and what Christians believe are often two different things.

What Judaism believes and what Paul wrote are often two different things. It's more about misinterpretation or taking scriptures out of their context.

The expression “cancelled the bond” or "the handwriting of the ordinances" or "the bill of charges" (cheirógrafon toís dógmasin) is a Greek legal expression that signifies the penalty which a lawbreaker had to pay--it does not signify the laws that are to be obeyed--only the penalty. It is only through our acceptance of the sacrifice of the Messiah Yeshua that our penalty was wiped out, but only the penalty, not the Law!

Paul wrote, “Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah” (Romans 3:31 CJB)

“For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins” (Hebrews 10:26 CJB)

Paul also wrote, “For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Gal 5:14 CJB)

“Don’t take vengeance on or bear a grudge against any of your people; rather, love your neighbor as yourself; I am Adonai (Lev 19:18 CJB)

 

[Lulav]

There are a lot of repeated posts here but I noticed this,

Paul also wrote, “For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Gal 5:14 CJB)

This comes from Gamaliel's teacher, Hillel who said:

“That which is abhorrent to you, that which you would not want others to do to you, do not do to them. This is the whole of Torah. Go and study."

However this is NOT in agreement with what Yeshua taught:


"Rabbi, which is the great commandment in the Law?" http://biblehub.com/matthew/22-37.htmAnd He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the greatest and most important commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

So we can see that Paul was not teaching what Yeshua taught, he was teaching what Gamaliel taught him and yet how many millions follow this great Rabbi instead of the greatest?

 

[Gxg (G²)]

There are a lot of repeated posts here but I noticed this,

Paul also wrote, “For the whole of the Torah is summed up in this one sentence: “Love your neighbor as yourself” (Gal 5:14 CJB)

This comes from Gamaliel's teacher, Hillel who said:

“That which is abhorrent to you, that which you would not want others to do to you, do not do to them. This is the whole of Torah. Go and study."

However this is NOT in agreement with what Yeshua taught:


"Rabbi, which is the great commandment in the Law?" http://biblehub.com/matthew/22-37.htmAnd He said to him, "'YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.' This is the greatest and most important commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets."

If going fully with what Yeshua taught, it's rather easy seeing where Paul went in line with Yeshua since the Lord brought the issue home in Luke 10:25-39 with the Good Samaritan when noting rather plainly what it meant to live out love for others....with it being noted that the way the abused man was treated by being taken care of is to always be on our mind since we're really to not do to others what we'd not wish done to us - be it abuse, avoidance or neglect and so forth. For Yeshua was just like Hiliel in light of how Hillel recognized brotherly love as the fundamental principle of Jewish moral law.

• Hillel and The Good Samaritan | Think Hebrew

25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

27 He answered, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’[a]; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he was attacked by robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, brought him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two denarii[c] and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’

36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?”

37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.”

Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.”​

When you walk in respect/concern for others as Paul noted - the entire law summed up in loving your neighbor - you do what Yeshua noted when pointing out the same concept with how loving one's neighbors was the demonstration of what it meant to serve God. The Apostle John also noted the same in II John and III John as well when repeating the point..

II John 1:4-6
4 It has given me great joy to find some of your children walking in the truth, just as the Father commanded us. 5 And now, dear lady, I am not writing you a new command but one we have had from the beginning. I ask that we love one another. 6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.​

 

[Gxg (G²)]

I dare say that I have met and personally know more bishops, priests and pastors than most people on the MJ portion of this forum. I have even had dinner with a Patriarch -twice. I haven't met a Roman Pope, but I've met a Coptic one.

None of them think that Christians are relieved from keeping the Law as it applies to them. Not one. I think all this "Christians don't keep the law" rubbish that gets belched out on this forum is just utter lies and slander. Violating a commandment no less! (Typical- the "law keepers" constantly violate the law to defend a Jewish Holiday or two. Repent people!)

Christians don't keep the law as the Jews do- and that, my people, is kosher halacha as far as the real Jews are concerned. Educated, catechised Christians with real traditions and lifestyles are taught to obey the Law of God- the parts that pertain to them. It's not rocket science.

I guarantee that there is more Torah in an Eastern Orthodox/Latin/Western C liturgy and lifestyle than there is in 100 MJ "synagogues". ...Where are your priests? Where is your Ner Tamid? Is your centre of worship based on the Temple? Do you have a sanctuary? Is your shewbread holy korban or thrown in the garbage at the end of the service? etc etc.

Observant? Hardly.

Agreed

 

[AbbaLove]

So we can see that Paul was not teaching what Yeshua taught, he was teaching what Gamaliel taught him and yet how many millions follow this great Rabbi instead of the greatest?

Who exactly is "we" can see? Are you referring Messianic Judaism as "we" as opposed to the dangers of HR? Is this an attempt to discredit Paul's writings as not inspired by Ruach HaKodesh?

It is by HIS Ruach HaKodesh that Yeshua HaMashiach was able to inspire the writers of the Torah as well as Paul's inspired letters to Christians (Jews and Gentiles).

"No anti-Paul theology will be tolerated. We believe that the books of B'resheet (Genesis) to the book of Revelation to be the inspired word of Elohim."​

Yeshua HaMashiach is the Living Word (Torah)​

John 1:1, 14 (CJB)
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
14 The Word became a human being and lived with us, and we saw his Sh’khinah, the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son, full of grace and truth.

Paul writing to Christians (Jew and Gentile) in Rome, “Does it follow that we abolish Torah by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm Torah” (Romans 3:31 CJB)

 

[rick357]

It is not necessary to throw out Paul...and it is without cause to put him in opposition to Yeshua...
Paul more than any other teaches as Yeshua that we must become the truth of the Torah as opposed to attempting to follow the true things contained there...also as Yeshua taught that there must be a change in how we are what we are in order to contain this new way.
This new way is Holy Spirit living YHWH's life in and through us...making us his living Torah...we are to see in written Torah who we should be and when we see what is not aligned drive us to trust and dependance on Holy Spirit to do his work in us.
These things being true...the danger of HR is that it would teach Torah with Moses veil... making the flesh removed to grow again and causing the works of that flesh to overcome the fruit of the Spirit in its students.

 

[daq]

Oops... forgot who I was talking to for a minute. It totally slipped my mind that reason and good sense don't work in this corner. No esotericism, no go. Sorry.

Perhaps you should not have told me that I do not know what I speak of? Talmidim of the Yeshua faithfulness usually attempt to define themselves with what is written but those that claim to know what they speak of, and do not, while at the same time attacking the intellect of others so as to protect and maintain their own dogmaton, always seem to define themselves with happy go lucky words such as "reason" and "good sense" which really mean humanism and the carnal mind of man because such words can mean just about anything to anyone and are strictly esoteric words that when used against some else are primarily for self justification being defined through the eye of the beholder himself/herself. Such words make the user and aggressor more able to be absolute ruler of what he or she will believe while condemning others for what they believe. "Well, I have and use reason but you do not, your reason is clearly foolishness and I will be the judge of that, therefore I am right and you are wrong." Yea, nice talkin to ya Mr. reason, good luck with that good sense of yours, wish I had some, but no more a god am i.

 

[ContraMundum]

"By saying "Christians don't keep the law" you are in fact saying that "Christians are unfaithful to God", "

No I am saying they don't use (nor see a need to use) Tzitzit, Mezuzah, or keep Sukkot, etc.

Then qualify that next time.

 

[ContraMundum]

If so, then chances are your comments on religions apply to theories/theoretical religions, rather than to existing (de facto) religions.

That would be a waste of time to try.

In every religion/denomination there are people that live according to its teachings, and those who don't. Always wiser to separate the formal and material when making broad statements.

 

[ContraMundum]

Okay, which Christian denominations teach Torah adherence?

You're still missing the point. You have to define what you mean by that.

Every religion on the planet to some degree teaches Torah.

Wrong. This is what YHVH says:

Isaiah 56:1
[/COLOR][/SIZE]Thus says the Lord:
“Keep justice, and do righteousness,
for soon my salvation will come,
and my righteousness be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this,
and the son of man who holds it fast,
who keeps the Sabbath, not profaning it,
and keeps his hand from doing any evil.” 3 Let not the foreigner who has joined himself to the Lord say,
“The Lord will surely separate me from his people”;

Context. To the Jews, during a time when they were walking astray from the Covenant.

Note: not a prophecy given to the Greeks, the Chinese or whoever.

Torah adherence means to keep God's Law and precepts. It means believing that God's Law is eternal but administered through more than one covenant.

Tell us something we don't know.

Answer what question exactly? Have you ever answered one of mine....ever????