Juster on the dangers in the HR movement.

[annier]

I can't get edit to work on my last post.

To clarify: grace freeing a person from the consequences of failing to keep Torah, doesn't mean it's ok to stop trying to keep Torah.

Being freed from the consequences of the law means we are not judged by the law. Therefore the law is a matter of conscience informed by the Holy Spirit.

It means we'll all fail at some point now and then, and in both the first and new covenant there is a grace provision (blood sacrifice) that sets us free from the consequences of sin (like judgment and being separated from YHWH because of our sin).

The law of faith is law as well....Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all walked by this law.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Being freed from the consequences of the law means we are not judged by the law. Therefore the law is a matter of conscience informed by the Holy Spirit.

The law of faith is law as well....Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob all walked by this law.

We are NOT freed from the consequences of law anymore than we are freed from the consequences of gravity. Torah is like a law of nature, it cannot be muted anymore than the laws of magnetism or physics.
In praxis we do not suffer in this life the literal consequences of the written law, and indeed most people haven't lived under or felt the consequences of Torah, past or present. In fact a "strict" court in the days of the 2nd temple was a court that executed one individual once every 70 years.

"Under the law" is a technical expression current at the time of Paul that means "merciless Torah" (perhaps correlated to the Sadducees) as opposed to the merciful Torah that most Pharisees championed.

 

[annier]

We are NOT freed from the consequences of law anymore than we are freed from the consequences of gravity. Torah is like a law of nature, it cannot be muted anymore than the laws of magnetism or physics.
In praxis we do not suffer in this life the literal consequences of the written law, and indeed most people haven't lived under or felt the consequences of Torah, past or present. In fact a "strict" court in the days of the 2nd temple was a court that executed one individual once every 70 years.

As for myself, I would not use 2nd temple courts as an example of correctly keeping the law.

"Under the law" is a technical expression current at the time of Paul that means "merciless Torah" (perhaps correlated to the Sadducees) as opposed to the merciful Torah that most Pharisees championed.

I agree with you somewhat here. But I think the above is mixing things a bit.
Under the law spoke of the Judgement given operation at the hand of Moses.

 

[Hoshiyya]

As for myself, I would not use 2nd temple courts as an example of correctly keeping the law.

I agree with you somewhat here. But I think the above is mixing things a bit.
Under the law spoke of the Judgement given operation at the hand of Moses.

"As for myself, I would not use 2nd temple courts as an example of correctly keeping the law."

Not sure what point you are making.

"Under the law.......", no, there is just literally no debate to be had.
It was a technical expression like "raining cats and dogs" and cannot be understood literally, or through speculation, by people divorced from the context.

 

[annier]

"As for myself, I would not use 2nd temple courts as an example of correctly keeping the law."

Not sure what point you are making.

Here are a few examples of the point.....
Mt 15:1 Then came to Jesus scribes and Pharisees, which were of Jerusalem, saying,
2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
3 But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

7 Ye hypocrites, well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying,
8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mt 16:11 How is it that ye do not understand that I spake it not to you concerning bread, that ye should beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees?
Mt 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

Mr 8:15 And he charged them, saying, Take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod.
Lu 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

"Under the law.......",

no, there is just literally no debate to be had.

I did not think so either.... But yet, debate goes on anyway....

It was a technical expression like "raining cats and dogs" and cannot be understood literally, or through speculation, by people divorced from the context.

it meant subject to it's judgments......Oh well, I understand you have your own views.....

 

[BukiRob]

Very interesting thought. Can someone believe in Jesus (whom you call Messiah) while rejecting the Torah? I believe they can. That is, they believe that the Torah predicted the arrival and work of the Messiah, but once such work was accomplished, the Torah itself as a way of life became obsolete. I don't think that their belief is in some way inconsistent with their assumptions.

One would assert the converse, too: "Those who reject the Messiah reject the Torah," and then you would claim that Orthodox Jews - who reject Jesus - by implication reject the Torah, by the claim that the Torah speaks of Jesus' coming and work.

I don't think it's generally useful to make statements like either of these. It just seems exclusionary.

People believe all kinds of things most of which are lies. Believing does not make something true. Yeshua himself said the demon's believe and tremble.

Does not Moshe tell Yisrael that one is coming greater than he and that they are to listen to him?

The LORD your God [Elokekhem] will raise up for you a prophet [navi] like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—just as you desired of the Lord your God [Elokekhem] at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God [Elohai] or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. I will raise up for them a prophet [Navi] like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him.”
- Devarim (Deuteronomy) 18:15-19, ESV

I do not speak of this Jesus person. He is a a Babylonian, paganized warped representation of the real person who lived. The person I speak of is the JEWISH Messiah! Yeshua HaMashiac. He was the one spoken of by Moshe. This Babylonian Messiah has almost nothing in common with the Jewish Messiah. Yeshua walked blameless before Torah. Yehsua was a pharisee. His disciples observed Torah until they drew their last breath....

It is the church in Rome over ~ 2 centuries that completely eradicated any association with Judaism. It was anti Semitic and did all it could to move as far away from Yeshua's Jewishness.

The Jesus that is taught in gentile churches did away with Torah. Each man today who calls upon this Jesus is free from Torah.. it is anathema to them. It is an attempt to "work" for salvation... this of course is a lie but that is what the church teaches. I do not follow this Jesus because that person never lived.

I try to not judge others because I have enough on my plate regarding my own failings and sinfulness. The christian who rejects Torah is rejecting Yeshua in his fullness. To the Jew who rejects Yeshua he too is rejecting the Torah in its fullness. One can not claim to accept the Torah in fullness if you reject who it points too. It is this very thing that Yeshua said to the pharisee's:
John 5:39 You keep examining the Tanakh because you think that in it you have eternal life. Those very Scriptures bear witness to me, 40 but you won’t come to me in order to have life!

41 “I don’t collect praise from men, 42 but I do know you people — I know that you have no love for God in you! 43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you don’t accept me; if someone else comes in his own name, him you will accept. 44 How can you trust? You’re busy collecting praise from each other, instead of seeking praise from God only.

45 “But don’t think that it is I who will be your accuser before the Father. Do you know who will accuse you? Moshe, the very one you have counted on! 46 For if you really believed Moshe, you would believe me; because it was about me that he wrote. 47 But if you don’t believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”

 

[BukiRob]

And yet I've been in messianic congregations that teach that messianic jews are no longer under the law. So I don't think it's just the churches.

By and large I think churches are good, despite areas of concern. I'm downright tired of messianics picking on the catholic church. It just goes to show how PROTESTANT most messianics are.

Oy, you still miss the point. Its not about the Catholic church... its about the GENTILE church. Prostestant, Catholic, Pentecostal etc... the ALL reject Torah.

Is the believer under the law? No. He or she is NOT under the law of sin and death... that is NOT the same as saying that the believer is to ignore Torah. Anyone that teaches Torah is not for the believer is teaching the same thing that the Gentile church teaches.

Area of concern??? Holy crow! Its FOUNDATIONAL. Just WHO and WHAT do you think Adonai is speaking about in Rev 18

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

He is speaking about a church that looks like its loves G-D, has a form of messiah (a twisted perverted one) but is void of holiness, righteousness and is not walking blamelessly. It teaches that it is holy, pure, righteous and is defended by G-d almighty himself. It says that it is rich, lacks nothing and is favored among all on earth...

It is the GENTILE Church that this verse is speaking about. It is (2 Timothy 3) holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

I do not hate or even loath the "church" but to ignore what is going on is folly. There are many sincere believers who attend church. Some churches are better, some worse. But when they reject Torah the are sitting in error, fundamental error. They violate scripture when Adonai declares “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

They teach that from Creation until the death and Resurrection Adonai was consistent in that Torah was HIS way... then it is done away with ?!?

Yet no where, not a single hint even an obscure hint can be found in the Hebrew scriptures about such a thing. Does not scripture declare that Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

Show me which prophet prophesied about the end of Torah. Such a thing does not exist Yet the GREATEST of all prophets, the Messiah himself declares: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Far too many people ascribe meanings to the word Fulfill that are inaccurate. If you look at the definition of the word fulfill you find: carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected.

Yes, it can mean to complete but given the alternative mean to carry out as required, pledged or expected and given the fact that Messiah is an observant JEW. It can ONLY mean this...

It is the heart in rebellion that seeks to stand in rejection of Adonia's requirements. Having Torah done away with placates this rebellious nature it pleases it for it requires NOTHING from us. It feeds the flesh the very thing we are called to put to death. The sin nature HATES this. It HATES Torah it will do anything to get you to accept the Babylonian way... for it does not require any sacrifice from us. Adonia wants the flesh laid upon the alter and we are to sacrifice it. It must die.

 

[annier]

Oy, you still miss the point. Its not about the Catholic church... its about the GENTILE church. Prostestant, Catholic, Pentecostal etc... the ALL reject Torah.

This is a false claim.

Is the believer under the law? No. He or she is NOT under the law of sin and death...

And does Moses law command death for sin?

that is NOT the same as saying that the believer is to ignore Torah. Anyone that teaches Torah is not for the believer is teaching the same thing that the Gentile church teaches.

And another false claim

Area of concern??? Holy crow! Its FOUNDATIONAL. Just WHO and WHAT do you think Adonai is speaking about in Rev 18

I heard another voice from heaven, saying, "Come out of her, my people, so that you will not participate in her sins and receive of her plagues;

He is speaking about a church that looks like its loves G-D, has a form of messiah (a twisted perverted one) but is void of holiness, righteousness and is not walking blamelessly. It teaches that it is holy, pure, righteous and is defended by G-d almighty himself. It says that it is rich, lacks nothing and is favored among all on earth...

It is the GENTILE Church that this verse is speaking about. It is (2 Timothy 3) holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.

I do not hate or even loath the "church" but to ignore what is going on is folly. There are many sincere believers who attend church. Some churches are better, some worse. But when they reject Torah the are sitting in error, fundamental error. They violate scripture when Adonai declares “For I, the Lord, do not change; therefore you, O sons of Jacob, are not consumed.

They teach that from Creation until the death and Resurrection Adonai was consistent in that Torah was HIS way... then it is done away with ?!?

Yet no where, not a single hint even an obscure hint can be found in the Hebrew scriptures about such a thing. Does not scripture declare that Amos 3:7 Surely the Lord GOD does nothing Unless He reveals His secret counsel To His servants the prophets.

Show me which prophet prophesied about the end of Torah. Such a thing does not exist Yet the GREATEST of all prophets, the Messiah himself declares: “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.

Far too many people ascribe meanings to the word Fulfill that are inaccurate. If you look at the definition of the word fulfill you find: carry out (a task, duty, or role) as required, pledged, or expected.

Yes, it can mean to complete but given the alternative mean to carry out as required, pledged or expected and given the fact that Messiah is an observant JEW. It can ONLY mean this...

It is the heart in rebellion that seeks to stand in rejection of Adonia's requirements. Having Torah done away with placates this rebellious nature it pleases it for it requires NOTHING from us. It feeds the flesh the very thing we are called to put to death. The sin nature HATES this. It HATES Torah it will do anything to get you to accept the Babylonian way... for it does not require any sacrifice from us. Adonia wants the flesh laid upon the alter and we are to sacrifice it. It must die.[/quote]
This post is full of exagerations. The Church believes and accepts the Torah. The salvation of the world was Made in promise to Abraham. He is the father of us all in Christ.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

 

[Hoshiyya]

.
Under the law spoke of the Judgement given operation at the hand of Moses.

Why do you think that ?
Because it sounds that way in English ?

 

[Rachel Rachel]

This post is full of exagerations. The Church believes and accepts the Torah.

Actually, no, it does not. The Church sees Torah as a lot of quaint suggestions that one can choose to follow, or not follow, as they choose.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Actually, no, it does not. The Church sees Torah as a lot of quaint suggestions that one can choose to follow, or not follow, as they choose.

And in fact many Christians are directly OPPOSED to keeping Torah.

 

[annier]

Why do you think that ?
Because it sounds that way in English ?

English has nothing to do with it. Even Judaism has taught Isreal as a nation and people are set apart by the law given to them. So, I think that because that is what I believe the torah given to Israel by the hand of Moses as teaching that. This notion has nothing to do with English vs Hebrew. As Judaism itself teaches such notions that Gentiles are not subject to the whole law.

 

[annier]

Actually, no, it does not. The Church sees Torah as a lot of quaint suggestions that one can choose to follow, or not follow, as they choose.

This post is also untrue accusations against the Church. Some would say that is what Rabbinic Judaism has done, even anti rabbinic messianics.

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Disagreement on what the law teaches, is no cause to accuse.

 

[Hoshiyya]

This post is also untrue accusations against the Church. Some would say that is what Rabbinic Judaism has done, even anti rabbinic messianics.

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Disagreement on what the law teaches, is no cause to accuse.

Ask ANY Christian on the street. Ask any priest, bishop, patriarch, pope or presbyter. Christians do not keep Torah. The law is dead to them, a curse, a fossilized covenant between God and the Jews. Christians, like Muslims and Hindus, have many similarities with the Jews when it comes to ethics, but that can be said about all religions.

Arguably the Muslims keep more of the Torah than the Christians.

 

[Hoshiyya]

English has nothing to do with it. Even Judaism has taught Isreal as a nation and people are set apart by the law given to them. So, I think that because that is what I believe the torah given to Israel by the hand of Moses as teaching that. This notion has nothing to do with English vs Hebrew. As Judaism itself teaches such notions that Gentiles are not subject to the whole law.

Actually you validate what I said 100%. You apparently think "under the law" (hupo nomon) just means "the law applies". In English, "under" can be used in this way. In the original context you could however have a relation to the law without being "under" it. You could keep it without being "under" it, and so on. Being "under" the law was one of the several relationships you could have to the law. (F.ex you might be "beside the law" or "in the law".)

Being "under" the law means to enjoy/suffer the consequences (positive or negative) of the law. It has nothing (in and of itself) to do with whether the law is good, bad, applicable, inapplicable, void, or whatever.

 

[annier]

Ask ANY Christian on the street. Ask any priest, bishop, patriarch, pope or presbyter. Christians do not keep Torah.

I am a Noachide Christian, so I do not need to go ask any one else. When asking such a question, Torah, does it mean the Torah given to the nation of Israel? Which Torah is distinct to the covenant made at Sinai? Of course if you ask a Christian if they keep the law in that context certainly they will tell you they do not. Further more, neither does anyone else keep the Torah given at Sinai.

The law is dead to them, a curse, a fossilized covenant between God and the Jews.

Actually, speaking as a Noachide Christian, not unlike Judaism teaches, The covenant given at Sinai was never given to the nations in the first place. So the notion of the law being "DEAD to them", is not accurate. We which are of the nations being not of the carnal circumcision, never had life by the Sinai covenant, nor were we subject to curses for not being subject to that covenant.

Christians, like Muslims and Hindus, have many similarities with the Jews when it comes to ethics, but that can be said about all religions.
Sure, this is an aspect of Noachide Christian. It is the common morality which existed before the Law and covenant given to the nation of Israel. Again Judaism itself teaches such notions, not just the church or english speaking peoples.
The Mosaic Levitical code, did not disannul the common morality which existed prior. It was a morality which was "retained" in the Sinai covenant law. Israel clea by which God had judged them. As it was completely universal law ( in Judaism this idea is found in Noachide Law). In scripture it is clearly seen here.

The God of Abraham: Is the Judge of all the earth.

Ge 18:25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall notthe Judge of all the earth do right?

Israel commanded to retain, and maintain the (universal) morality of which all Nations were subject...by the God of Abraham, the Judge of all the earth...
24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
28 That the land spue not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spued out the nations that were before you.
29 For whosoever shall commit any of these abominations, even the souls that commit them shall be cut off from among their people.
30 Therefore shall ye keep mine ordinance, that ye commit not any one of these abominable customs, which were committed before you, and that ye defile not yourselves therein: I am the LORD your God.

Arguably the Muslims keep more of the Torah than the Christians.

They keep more mosaic Torah, but much less Noachide.....

 

[annier]

Actually you validate what I said 100%. You apparently think "under the law" (hupo nomon) just means "the law applies". In English, "under" can be used in this way. In the original context you could however have a relation to the law without being "under" it. You could keep it without being "under" it, and so on. Being "under" the law was one of the several relationships you could have to the law. (F.ex you might be "beside the law" or "in the law".)

Being "under" the law means to enjoy/suffer the consequences (positive or negative) of the law. It has nothing (in and of itself) to do with whether the law is good, bad, applicable, inapplicable, void, or whatever.

Again, The law includes several covenants, as well as additional law from Moses regarding a specific covenant. Honestly I do believe I have a broader application in my use of terms than your posts do.
But that is based upon how I look at what the law says, how I apply the law to myself.
Your posts keep coming up with statements which attempt to express my thoughts, when they really are a reflection of your own.

Your post has used the phrase "the law applies". The law is more than that which was given in the Sinai covenant. So, "under the law", and "law applying" can indeed be broad. As it can include things which were to all men before the Sinai law and covenant.
Ga 3:8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
As I have said, the covenant law given Israel as a nation, it applies to that nation to keep. The reason for the bolding is to emphasize LAW, which was not given in any other covenant, nor to any other nation BEFORE them. Which law by the way retained prior law which was binding APART from the Sinai covenant ( ie included other people and nations). Or to put it another way, it contained, as in retaining, law which was not disannulled by the latter covenant made with Israel at Sinai.
Ga 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto. {covenant: or, testament}
Ga 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.

**** The law in the above verse is clearly speaking of that law which was given to the natuion of Israel by the hand of Moses.
We simply do not agree on what is taught in the law. But please there is no reason to accuse people of things which are not really true because of disagreements.

 

[Rachel Rachel]

This post is also untrue accusations against the Church. Some would say that is what Rabbinic Judaism has done, even anti rabbinic messianics.

Mt 15:9 But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mr 7:7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Disagreement on what the law teaches, is no cause to accuse.

Can you name a denomination, other than maybe Church of God 7th Day or 7th Day Baptists, that teaches we still have to obey Torah?

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Ask ANY Christian on the street. Ask any priest, bishop, patriarch, pope or presbyter. Christians do not keep Torah. The law is dead to them, a curse, a fossilized covenant between God and the Jews. Christians, like Muslims and Hindus, have many similarities with the Jews when it comes to ethics, but that can be said about all religions.

Arguably the Muslims keep more of the Torah than the Christians.

True dat!

 

[Rachel Rachel]

Ask ANY Christian on the street. Ask any priest, bishop, patriarch, pope or presbyter. Christians do not keep Torah.

I am a Noachide Christian, so I do not need to go ask any one else.

But I thought you said "the Church" teaches to keep Torah.

You said, "This post is full of exagerations. The Church believes and accepts the Torah."