Juster on the dangers in the HR movement.

[ContraMundum]

Interesting to read, especially in the light of the discussion topics of the forum over the years:

Dan Juster: The Dangers of Jewish Roots Movements.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Things like this characterize Messianic Gentilism and really most modern Western religions. Disputations over definitions, and so forth. (This type of controversy is non-extant in Taoism, for example.)

Really, I'm thinking we should drop the entire doctrinal definition - why mention we are messianic?
isn't the true religion the Torah ?
If two people are able to keep Shabbat together, what does it matter if one thinks Schneerson is the messiah, and thinks the end-time is far off, and believes in predestination, and another man thinks Yeshua is the messiah, and thinks the end-time is near, and believes in free will - what do their THEORETICAL differences matter, when their PRACTICAL similarities are there ?

 

[rick357]

Things like this characterize Messianic Gentilism and really most modern Western religions. Disputations over definitions, and so forth. (This type of controversy is non-extant in Taoism, for example.)

Really, I'm thinking we should drop the entire doctrinal definition - why mention we are messianic?
isn't the true religion the Torah ?
If two people are able to keep Shabbat together, what does it matter if one thinks Schneerson is the messiah, and thinks the end-time is far off, and believes in predestination, and another man thinks Yeshua is the messiah, and thinks the end-time is near, and believes in free will - what do their THEORETICAL differences matter, when their PRACTICAL similarities are there ?

Because Yeshua said no man comes to the Father except by me....and if you love your brother you can not stand by and watch him die...since Yeshua also said he was life....and again the resurection....did the rich man in the masters parable not go to synagogue...did the Pharisee who prayed and remained a sinner not give service to Moses. Messianic Judaism may look like rabbinic Judaism but it is very different. The outside of two cups cleaned may look the same but if only one is cleaned on inside then only one can be used for its purpose

 

[Shimshon]

Interesting to read, especially in the light of the discussion topics of the forum over the years:

Dan Juster: The Dangers of Jewish Roots Movements.

Agreed.

These erroneous emphases have unnecessarily brought division, confusion and pain: to their adherents, to Christians, to Messianic Jews and to Jews. I trust that you, dear readers, will have the discernment to avoid mistaken Jewish roots teachings, and to be enriched by those that are right on.

This was my message all along.

Really, I'm thinking we should drop the entire doctrinal definition - why mention we are messianic?

No, the real question is 'why mention you are Jewish, or follow 'a Judaism'?'

isn't the true religion the Torah ?

No, true religion is defined by James. In Judaism Torah is not 'the religion' but the spoken words of our creator, halacha defines the 'true religion' of Judaism.

If two people are able to keep Shabbat together, what does it matter if one thinks Schneerson is the messiah, and thinks the end-time is far off, and believes in predestination, and another man thinks Yeshua is the messiah, and thinks the end-time is near, and believes in free will - what do their THEORETICAL differences matter, when their PRACTICAL similarities are there ?

Right, like an askenazi would differ from a sephardi. Or a messianic and a chasidic. Now that would be more of a realistic match to the pattern. But in all examples they are 'Jews'. Not non-Jews attempting to claim they too are bound by the definitions of Judaism.

HR ministries ALL put Judaism on as a cover-dress, and the more extreme attempt a form of reverse replacement theology. They think that by saying they 'come along side' them or are 'adopted' that they are not disturbing the position of Yisrael. When in fact by doing this very thing, in the way they do it, they infer nothing but. And then wonder why they are not accepted and pointed at that they are trying to replace that which 'is'.

It's socialism at it's best, really.

The more you understand what Cultural Marxism is and how it has negatively affected Western society, the more you will discover how modern counter culture movements have easily adopted Cultural Marxist deceptive techniques. When studying the origins of "Torah Observant Messianic Judaism" (TOMJ) you will find that its founders wholeheartedly adopted a Cultural Marxist counterculture strategy. The goal of Cultural Marxism is that of undermining the spiritual and moral foundations of a society and supplanting a counterculture of their own design opposed to the social norms that they intend to destroy. TOMJ leaders at the vanguard of the movement, though dedicated to a Messianic vision, also had a vision of creating a wholly Torah observant Messianic Jewish movement. To be successful, their vision of total Torah observance within the MJM being in opposition to the grace teachings of the Apostle Paul had to be promoted in a fashion that would circumvent their opponents by deceptive means. Using Cultural Marxist theory as their strategy to achieve their goals they shamelessly perverted the historical record of the early Church and invented the myth of a "Torah observant Rav Shaul". They should have known that such deceit would only cause sin to abound, but they were blinded by the goal of overturning the Pauline Gospels. Their object was that of stealing the identity of the Apostle Paul and reinterpreting his Epistles, to forge a false gospel! Though the originators of this erroneous doctrine were quite aware of their deceit, once the ruse was passed onto Messianic teachers with itching ears for new "higher criticism" it was considered to be a refinement of a prevouosly flawed historical and doctrinal viewpoint. In a simlar fashion Cultural Marxist deceit has also crept into Protestant teachings by theologians assuming such "higer criticism" was constructive for the Church to progress in modern society. - See more at: Cultural Marxist Root of the Torah Observant Messianic Movement (Messianic Literary Corner)

AND even after all this I personally believe that every individual has a right to worship and identify with God as they see fit. You want to be Jewish, convert and join a Jewish community. You want to be Christian, Buddist, Bahi, or any other known form of religion, convert and do what your heart leads, and be happy. If a person wants to mix them all together and be a 'coexistant' groovey, have at it and be happy. Do what works best for you. If your alone in your newly found mix of paradigms, find others that see your way and form a group.

But what we have here is a form of socialist replacement of values. The attempt to divert a community to something it was completely opposed to. Like the way we have the acceptance of the LGBT community by the 'Church'. THIS was a classic form of socialism that is being used in most all forms of western society today. The term PC should ring a bell.

This, to me, is now all politics. It's what it has become. And so I see many Jews bowing out. And returning to the Judaism they were raised with. And many Jewish Christians are doing the same, and returning to their churches. Because what was once a beautiful Jewish dream has become another nightmare of political correctness.

The only good thing in my mind is to love others and be happy. Share with others the good you have, instead of griping about the differences. THIS is a Jewish trait! In fact, Rebbe Schneerson was well known to argue vehemently against a person, and then before he stopped making his point he would point out a good quality about the person he was arguing.

The “Who is a Jew?” issue — in which the Rebbe insisted on Israel only recognizing what he regarded as fully halachic, in effect only Orthodox, conversions to Judaism as valid — was one of those issues that provoked considerable opposition to the Rebbe, and one on which he found himself in periodic opposition with the Israeli minister of the interior, Yosef Burg (who was himself an Orthodox Jew). The Rebbe felt that Burg was permitting compromises on what he felt must be a non-compromisable issue. At a meeting with Bernie Rader, the Rebbe, in an uncharacteristic manner, screamed out at one point, “Why does he allow people who are not Jewish to be written down as being Jewish?” Yet, at this very moment of great annoyance, the Rebbe drew back and then, in typical Rebbe style, he said, “But it’s also true that he is a Jew who prays three times a day.” For Rader this was vintage Rebbe: “He always finished up by saying something nice about a person.” And not just a general platitude about the person being nice, but a specific detail (“prays three times a day”) that served to remind the Rebbe (and Rader) of areas in which he and Burg were united.
-Teluskin, p.134
​

Rebbe: The Life and Teachings of Menachem M. Schneerson, the Most Influential Rabbi in Modern History

This is the way we should all be. But alas... I am dreaming.....

 

[daq]

I still would love to see an HR board opened somewhere on CF and let those who wish to become affiliated with it have a place to discuss what they believe to be the truth. Perhaps then this board might quiet down somewhat too since there are way more Gentile "MJ's" then there are physical blood-line Jewish Messianics. Perhaps they do not do such a thing because that board might end up "replacing" this one, (pun intended).

 

[Truthfrees]

Things like this characterize Messianic Gentilism and really most modern Western religions. Disputations over definitions, and so forth. (This type of controversy is non-extant in Taoism, for example.)

Really, I'm thinking we should drop the entire doctrinal definition - why mention we are messianic?
isn't the true religion the Torah ?
If two people are able to keep Shabbat together, what does it matter if one thinks Schneerson is the messiah, and thinks the end-time is far off, and believes in predestination, and another man thinks Yeshua is the messiah, and thinks the end-time is near, and believes in free will - what do their THEORETICAL differences matter, when their PRACTICAL similarities are there ?

Good point.

Bible lovers from different groups still tend to agree with what pleases the L-rd based on Torah (the L-rd's instructions).

If we focused more on what we can agree on we'd move closer towards unity based on truth. It would be a good place to start.

Theoretical differences pop up even among people of like faith, and we often choose to drop our theoretical differences to preserve unity in those cases, so why not widen the scope to inlcude Bible lovers from other groups.

Theoretical differences change with discussion. G-d's instructions don't change. Let's start with the part that doesn't change and see how far we can grow in unity.

 

[rick357]

Good point.

Bible lovers from different groups still tend to agree with what pleases the L-rd based on Torah (the L-rd's instructions).

If we focused more on what we can agree on we'd move closer towards unity based on truth. It would be a good place to start.

Theoretical differences pop up even among people of like faith, and we often choose to drop our theoretical differences to preserve unity in those cases, so why not widen the scope to inlcude Bible lovers from other groups.

Theoretical differences change with discussion. G-d's instructions don't change. Let's start with the part that doesn't change and see how far we can grow in unity.

Non messianic jews still see torah though a veil...Yeshua is the truth and he is the torah...untill the day they accept that they can not obtain the promise of life in the torah and not only can I not by love act like that is not an issue...but untill they recieve that inheritance I can not be what I am called to in fulness

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Interesting to read, especially in the light of the discussion topics of the forum over the years:

Dan Juster: The Dangers of Jewish Roots Movements.

So on point with what was noted - and something to keep in mind for anyone having a love for Jewish Culture...

 

[Hoshiyya]

No, true religion is defined by James.

Right, like an askenazi would differ from a sephardi. Or a messianic and a chasidic.

You can believe in what-ever definition you prefer, of course.

But IF two people (regardless of race) are able and willing to reasonably keep Shabbat and Torah and so on together, why should there be a contention over, why bring in, why invite, discussions and debates?

IF two people can reasonably keep Torah together, that should be their common religion, and disputation over doctrine should not enter into it.

To do so would be to allow theory and speculation to define reality, which is the opposite of the way things should logically be.

Disputation and disunity is, it seems to me, the norm in MJ/MG, and frankly something must be done.

" Share with others the good you have, instead of griping about the differences. "
That is my exact point.

 

[pat34lee]

Interesting to read, especially in the light of the discussion topics of the forum over the years:

Dan Juster: The Dangers of Jewish Roots Movements.

"Gentiles to the back of the bus. No Torah for you."

I don't think so.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Shimshon, you said:

"the real question is 'why mention you are Jewish, or follow 'a Judaism'?' "

But your post also includes this information:

Shimshon

Jewish Believer

So I don't know what to make of that, but to see it as a validation that we NEED the Jewish element to communicate Torah-observance, if indeed we want to communicate Torah-observance. Otherwise, we might just call ourselves "Christians", "Messianics", "Followers of the Anointed One" and so on, which in practice means we would be understood as Catholics, Protestats or Orthodox Christians or similar, and hence, ultimately, we'd be advertising our antinomianism, our disobedience to the Torah of Yeshua, which defines Catholicism, Protestantism, Orthodox Christianity and so on.

 

[pat34lee]

You can believe in what-ever definition you prefer, of course.

But IF two people (regardless of race) are able and willing to reasonably keep Shabbat and Torah and so on together, why should there be a contention over, why bring in, why invite, discussions and debates?

IF two people can reasonably keep Torah together, that should be their common religion, and disputation over doctrine should not enter into it.

To do so would be to allow theory and speculation to define reality, which is the opposite of the way things should logically be.

Disputation and disunity is, it seems to me, the norm in MJ/MG, and frankly something must be done.

Torah is not enough. When a group has different beliefs, where do you draw the line? The problem isn't looking for unity. It is accepting compromise.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Torah is not enough. When a group has different beliefs, where do you draw the line? The problem isn't looking for unity. It is accepting compromise.

I think Torah is or can be enough.
It's not a matter of groups, but of individuals keeping Torah together as per the Mosaic model, without bringing in contention rooted in personal speculations and opinions on matters of the invisible and the doctrinal and otherwise intangible.

That which does not relate to practical reality should not be allowed to problematize practical reality.

 

[ContraMundum]

Agreed.

This was my message all along.


No, the real question is 'why mention you are Jewish, or follow 'a Judaism'?'


No, true religion is defined by James. In Judaism Torah is not 'the religion' but the spoken words of our creator, halacha defines the 'true religion' of Judaism.

Right, like an askenazi would differ from a sephardi. Or a messianic and a chasidic. Now that would be more of a realistic match to the pattern. But in all examples they are 'Jews'. Not non-Jews attempting to claim they too are bound by the definitions of Judaism.

HR ministries ALL put Judaism on as a cover-dress, and the more extreme attempt a form of reverse replacement theology. They think that by saying they 'come along side' them or are 'adopted' that they are not disturbing the position of Yisrael. When in fact by doing this very thing, in the way they do it, they infer nothing but. And then wonder why they are not accepted and pointed at that they are trying to replace that which 'is'.

It's socialism at it's best, really.

AND even after all this I personally believe that every individual has a right to worship and identify with God as they see fit. You want to be Jewish, convert and join a Jewish community. You want to be Christian, Buddist, Bahi, or any other known form of religion, convert and do what your heart leads, and be happy. If a person wants to mix them all together and be a 'coexistant' groovey, have at it and be happy. Do what works best for you. If your alone in your newly found mix of paradigms, find others that see your way and form a group.

But what we have here is a form of socialist replacement of values. The attempt to divert a community to something it was completely opposed to. Like the way we have the acceptance of the LGBT community by the 'Church'. THIS was a classic form of socialism that is being used in most all forms of western society today. The term PC should ring a bell.

This, to me, is now all politics. It's what it has become. And so I see many Jews bowing out. And returning to the Judaism they were raised with. And many Jewish Christians are doing the same, and returning to their churches. Because what was once a beautiful Jewish dream has become another nightmare of political correctness.

The only good thing in my mind is to love others and be happy. Share with others the good you have, instead of griping about the differences. THIS is a Jewish trait! In fact, Rebbe Schneerson was well known to argue vehemently against a person, and then before he stopped making his point he would point out a good quality about the person he was arguing.
Rebbe: The Life and Teachings of Menachem M. Schneerson, the Most Influential Rabbi in Modern History

This is the way we should all be. But alas... I am dreaming.....

Good post- and the Rebbe book is an awesome read. Recommended.

 

[daq]

"Gentiles to the back of the bus. No Torah for you."

I don't think so.

Unfortunately it does come across to me also as divisive and from the stance of a "supremacy" mindset. I perceive it as giving Jews and Messianic Judaism a bad taste and a bad name and sorry to see it will apparently be a never ending power struggle over religious groups and labeling who fits where in their power schemes. No thanks.

 

[Truthfrees]

Non messianic jews still see torah though a veil...Yeshua is the truth and he is the torah...untill the day they accept that they can not obtain the promise of life in the torah and not only can I not by love act like that is not an issue...but untill they recieve that inheritance I can not be what I am called to in fulness

Christians see Torah through a veil too when they believe it's passed away and no longer valid.

Discussion can bring truth to any who are willing. No one has all the answers.

Bible lovers who pray and ask the L-rd for His wisdom can receive more than they have now.

 

[rick357]

Christians see Torah through a veil too when they believe it's passed away and no longer valid.

Discussion can bring truth to any who are willing. No one has all the answers.

Bible lovers who pray and ask the L-rd for His wisdom can receive more than they have now.

With most christians it goes beyond a veil as they simply refuse to look...as to the rest of what you said I agree

 

[sevengreenbeans]

HR ministries ALL put Judaism on as a cover-dress, and the more extreme attempt a form of reverse replacement theology. They think that by saying they 'come along side' them or are 'adopted' that they are not disturbing the position of Yisrael. When in fact by doing this very thing, in the way they do it, they infer nothing but. And then wonder why they are not accepted and pointed at that they are trying to replace that which 'is'.

Agreed.

 

[rick357]

Agreed.

I believe Gentiles miss the point that they've been brought into the promises of Abraham but that does not include the promises to Israel of being the head of all nations, the apple of his eye, or any other promise directed to Isaac or his descendants untill those things Yeshua said we would be able to take part in

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Interesting to read, especially in the light of the discussion topics of the forum over the years:

Dan Juster: The Dangers of Jewish Roots Movements.

I disagree with Error #1, I believe in one Law, however, I agree that the following quote from Error #2 is indeed error: "that true Christians are the lost tribes of Israel. In an amazing twist of the Bible it is claimed that true Christians are physical descendants of the lost tribes who were scattered, this being the purported reason they became Christians. It is their answer to the puzzle of what happened to the lost tribes of Israel." It is replacement theology, in my opinion.