Juster on the dangers in the HR movement.

[rick357]

Abraham, Moses, David, the priests, prophets, judges, and many others had direct access to the Creator and were in right relationship with HIM.

Very good question.

May each person ask the L-ord to give them the right answer.

Moses said that Israel should listen to that one who would come after him...he also said you must do all that is written...if one rejects or ignores Yeshua is he following Torah

 

[Steve Petersen]

Moses said that Israel should listen to that one who would come after him...he also said you must do all that is written...if one rejects or ignores Yeshua is he following Torah

If Jesus came to abolish the Law, they are obliged to put him to death.

This is the Jesus that the Church has been trying to foist on Jews for 1800 years.

 

[rick357]

If Jesus came to abolish the Law, they are obliged to put him to death.

This is the Jesus that the Church has been trying to foist on Jews for 1800 years.

Who said Yeshua came to abolish the law...not Yeshua...and not me.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Who said Yeshua came to abolish the law...not Yeshua...and not me.

He said "if", and went on to state his premise quite satisfactorily, and I think his interpretation of the Mosaic death penalty probably is accurate.
However you are also right, in that Yeshua did not - or at least many of us on this forum agree that Yeshua did not - come to abolish the Torah.

 

[Steve Petersen]

Who said Yeshua came to abolish the law...not Yeshua...and not me.

I was responding to this part of your previous post:

"if one rejects or ignores Yeshua is he following Torah"

The Church has said Jesus abolished the Torah; sometimes at the point of a sword they have tried to convert Jews to THIS Jesus. It is no surprise that the Jewish people have rejected this Jesus.

 

[rick357]

He said "if", and went on to state his premise quite satisfactorily, and I think his interpretation of the Mosaic death penalty probably is accurate.
However you are also right, in that Yeshua did not - or at least many of us on this forum agree that Yeshua did not - come to abolish the Torah.

I am corrected thank you

 

[rick357]

I was responding to this part of your previous post:

The Church has said Jesus abolished the Torah; sometimes at the point of a sword they have tried to convert Jews to THIS Jesus. It is no surprise that the Jewish people have rejected this Jesus.

You are correct as a whole they have done this...just as Jezebel lead Israel to follow baal so the harlot of babel has lead the gentile church into idolatry and they have sought to kill jew and gentile alike who would not bow. Yet I believe the work of YHWH to extend himself to the gentiles was not futile...and I hope he has reseved among them those who have not bowed
Further I am sorry I took your post wrong...your wording was clear my perception was not

 

[Gxg (G²)]

Interesting to read, especially in the light of the discussion topics of the forum over the years:

Dan Juster: The Dangers of Jewish Roots Movements.

Came across this article from one of my favorite ministries and I appreciated what the individual noted - as he seemed to point out a good number of actions which often give fuel for some of the HR cults that have developed within the Messianic Judaism world whenever they make accusations against believers.

For more, one can go here to the following:

• 5 Reasons Why It Matters How Christians Talk About Jews | Think Hebrew

Additionally, there's also the work of Prof. Daniel Boyarin and Prof. Gabriele Boccaccini on the subject - as seen here in the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GfRhzMLScc

 

[AbbaLove]

5 Reasons Why It Matters How Christians Talk About Jews | Think Hebrew

Saunders' groundbreaking book Paul and Palestinian Judaism started the movement called the New Perspective on Paul. The quest for an accurate understanding through the Jewish context is common today.

In Saunders' (Ed Parish Sanders') next book Jesus and Judaism, he argued that ...

Jesus began as a follower of John the Baptist and was a prophet of the restoration of Israel. Sanders saw Jesus as creating an eschatological Jewish movement through his appointment of the Apostles and through his preaching and actions. After his execution (the trigger for which was Jesus overthrowing the tables in the temple court of Herod's Temple, thereby antagonizing the political authorities) his followers continued the movement, expecting his return to restore Israel

It sounds like "Saunders" (E P Sanders) doesn't believe that Yeshua is the Messiah, the Son of God conceived by the Holy Spirit.

John 1:1-4, 14 (Complete Jewish Bible)
In the beginning was the Word,
and the Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He was with God in the beginning.
3 All things came to be through him,
and without him nothing made had being.
4 In him was life,
and the life was the light of mankind.

14 The Word became a human being and lived with us,
and we saw his Sh’khinah,
the Sh’khinah of the Father’s only Son,
full of grace and truth.

It also matters how Jews talk about Yeshua and Christians.

 

[Truthfrees]

Originally Posted by Gxg (G²) 5 Reasons Why It Matters How Christians Talk About Jews | Think Hebrew

Thanks for this link.

 

[Torah Emunah]

Moses said that Israel should listen to that one who would come after him...he also said you must do all that is written...if one rejects or ignores Yeshua is he following Torah

Yehoshua (Joshua) was the leader that followed Moshe Rabbeinu not Jesus. That is a very odd assumption indeed.

 

[rick357]

Yehoshua (Joshua) was the leader that followed Moshe Rabbeinu not Jesus. That is a very odd assumption indeed.

Joshua was a great man...worthy of honor...but he was not a prophet such as Moses....a deliverer....a mediator between YHWH and man....I believe if one search every prophet in scripture and history only one could be considered as like unto Moses

 

[Torah Emunah]

Joshua was a great man...worthy of honor...but he was not a prophet such as Moses....a deliverer....a mediator between YHWH and man....I believe if one search every prophet in scripture and history only one could be considered as like unto Moses

There is no greater prophet than Moshe Rabbeinu and Devarim 18:15 - when read in its proper context - does not imply all of which you have assumed, it simply means his successor that HaShem had chosen, which was Yehoshua. Read the entire chapter without cut and paste theology.

 

[rick357]

There is no greater prophet than Moshe Rabbeinu and Devarim 18:15 - when read in its proper context - does not imply all of which you have assumed, it simply means his successor that HaShem had chosen, which was Yehoshua. Read the entire chapter without cut and paste theology.

Verse 1-8 deals with a levite who desires with all his mind to serve at the future temple...
Verse 9-14 deals with the practices of the nations they will possess in that they seek spiritual guidance by magic and divination but YHWH does not allow this guidance for his people
Verse 15-18 deals with Israels desire that YHWH not speak directly to them but that it be done through a man.....and as Moses has given them the "law" so this next prophet shall have YHWH's words in his mouth...and a promise he will speak all to us
Verse 19 a warning to those who do not listen

If Joshua had spoken all to us....we would not have Isaiah...Jeremiah...ect.
And the context does not lend itself to a successor in earthly leadership but of relationship to YHWH.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Yehoshua (Joshua) was the leader that followed Moshe Rabbeinu not Jesus. That is a very odd assumption indeed.

Complete agreement.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

There is no greater prophet than Moshe Rabbeinu and Devarim 18:15 - when read in its proper context - does not imply all of which you have assumed, it simply means his successor that HaShem had chosen, which was Yehoshua. Read the entire chapter without cut and paste theology.

Yes. Again, completely agree with you on this.

 

[sevengreenbeans]

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (put to death)

Joshua 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before you all the days of your life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with you: I will not fail you, nor forsake you.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shall you divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
7 Only be you strong and very courageous, that you may observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded you: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that you may prosper wheresoever you go.
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth; but you shall meditate therein day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then you shall make your way prosperous, and then you shall have good success.
9 Have not I commanded you? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be you dismayed: for the L-RD your G-d is with you wheresoever you go.

And for a direct correlation:

Joshua 1:16 And they answered Joshua, saying, All that you command us we will do, and wheresoever you send us, we will go.
17 According as we hearkened unto Moses in all things, so will we hearken unto you: only the L-RD your G-d be with you, as he was with Moses.
18 Whosoever he be that does rebel against your commandment, and will not hearken unto your words in all that you command him, he shall be put to death: only be strong and of a good courage.

 

[yonah_mishael]

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (put to death)

Joshua 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before you all the days of your life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with you: I will not fail you, nor forsake you.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shall you divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
7 Only be you strong and very courageous, that you may observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded you: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that you may prosper wheresoever you go.
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth; but you shall meditate therein day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then you shall make your way prosperous, and then you shall have good success.
9 Have not I commanded you? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be you dismayed: for the L-RD your G-d is with you wheresoever you go.

And for a direct correlation:

Joshua 1:16 And they answered Joshua, saying, All that you command us we will do, and wheresoever you send us, we will go.
17 According as we hearkened unto Moses in all things, so will we hearken unto you: only the L-RD your G-d be with you, as he was with Moses.
18 Whosoever he be that does rebel against your commandment, and will not hearken unto your words in all that you command him, he shall be put to death: only be strong and of a good courage.

I absolutely agree with you that the immediate successor of Moses was Joshua. The mention of raising up "a prophet" like Moses was not referring only to Joshua, though. It was referring to the entire string of prophets - that there would always be "a prophet" operating among the people for as long as revelation was being given. The context speaks of "the prophet" that speaks falsely in the name of YHWH. We should not understand that to refer to one person any more than we should take the one who speaks truth to refer to one person.

 

[Hoshiyya]

Yehoshua (Joshua) was the leader that followed Moshe Rabbeinu not Jesus. That is a very odd assumption indeed.

So should we not listen to Ezra?
Since he was not the IMMEDIATE successor of Moshe ?

Obviously the song remains the same. Even if Yehoshwa is the one being referred to, so what?
We still need to listen to the Word of Hashem, whether it comes from Moshe's immediate successor or later prophets / leaders / kings.

 

[Torah Emunah]

Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.
19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (put to death)

Joshua 1:5 There shall not any man be able to stand before you all the days of your life: as I was with Moses, so I will be with you: I will not fail you, nor forsake you.
6 Be strong and of a good courage: for unto this people shall you divide for an inheritance the land, which I sware unto their fathers to give them.
7 Only be you strong and very courageous, that you may observe to do according to all the law, which Moses my servant commanded you: turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that you may prosper wheresoever you go.
8 This book of the law shall not depart out of your mouth; but you shall meditate therein day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written therein: for then you shall make your way prosperous, and then you shall have good success.
9 Have not I commanded you? Be strong and of a good courage; be not afraid, neither be you dismayed: for the L-RD your G-d is with you wheresoever you go.

And for a direct correlation:

Joshua 1:16 And they answered Joshua, saying, All that you command us we will do, and wheresoever you send us, we will go.
17 According as we hearkened unto Moses in all things, so will we hearken unto you: only the L-RD your G-d be with you, as he was with Moses.
18 Whosoever he be that does rebel against your commandment, and will not hearken unto your words in all that you command him, he shall be put to death: only be strong and of a good courage.

You are correct, and within the proper context of Devarim 18:15. Great reference chapter.