Just need support

[Just_a_Joe]

Who said all truth is in the Bible?

Christians? Or can you find it in the Quran, Talmud, sayings of Buddha etc.?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Hi there!

1) Your English is excellent!

2) John 14.6 has a very relevant message when it comes to the many ideas that there are around.

Hi! Thank you. I disagree with John 14:6. It's a strong statement, very poetic, but when you are starting to dig, what is meant by that, you enter into one big contradiction and confusion - depending on which denomination of Christianity is presenting you with the interpretation of the way, the truth and the life.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Joe, if you don't believe there is a Creator-God, and we are made much like unto His image, as He says, then all the reasoning in the world will not help you. You will then die in your sinful nature (which we all have) and will be cast away in condemnation by the Creator, as He also tells us. Let me invite you to read God's Word beginning first at John 1; John 3; John 14, and see what God has to say to you. God says: "ye must be born again" (John 3) and that only comes by receiving God's beloved Son --the Lord Jesus.

I do not disagree that there is a Creator-God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Great point. Then, what's the purpose of the Bible and the churches and missions and hymns and Christian schools etc? I agree in that your own search for God can only bring you to God. Not some fixed teaching, which is limiting.

The purpose of some churches and missions is to introduce you to God. From there it is up to each one of us where we take the relationship, because the relationship when one is Christ's Own is between them and God. And we shouldn't count on someone else telling us, because they could be wrong or it is their opinion.

What does God say the purpose of the Bible is?

2 Timothy 3:16–17
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that ethe man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi! Thank you. I disagree with John 14:6. It's a strong statement, very poetic, but when you are starting to dig, what is meant by that, you enter into one big contradiction and confusion - depending on which denomination of Christianity is presenting you with the interpretation of the way, the truth and the life.

What is the other or another way that someone can come through God besides Jesus Christ?

Is it not Jesus Christ who forgives sin? And isn't that what separates God from man is sin? A holy, righteous and perfect God cannot have sin.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

The purpose of some churches and missions is to introduce you to God. From there it is up to each one of us where we take the relationship, because the relationship when one is Christ's Own is between them and God. And we shouldn't count on someone else telling us, because they could be wrong or it is their opinion.

What does God say the purpose of the Bible is?

2 Timothy 3:16–17
16 All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17 that ethe man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

Then I really do not see any justification for the church and all her activities. Just print Bibles and distribute them.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

What is the other or another way that someone can come through God besides Jesus Christ?

I really don't know. Maybe individual independent search in your heart? Maybe by doubting and rejecting anyone claiming to hold the one and only truth?

Is it not Jesus Christ who forgives sin? And isn't that what separates God from man is sin? A holy, righteous and perfect God cannot have sin.

I have big problems with these statements. There are numerous contradictions, that usually require lengthy explanations. Like a one-page contract with many volumes of fineprint. For example, Jesus the Messiah came at a certain point of history. There was no good news before. After coming of Jesus Christ, there have been multitudes of people who have never heard. The conditions for sin were created by God, according to the Bible. Therefore it's not just to judge for it in any way. If everyone is born with sin, then they are not responsible. And I have many other questions.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

It's an easy way out, but not a solution, I think. "This is true, but it's not going to work even though it's true, because the conditions aren't right". Then it's not true!

I'm sorry. I'm not quite sure as to what you mean by "an easy way out," or for whom. In your estimation, what makes truth "true"? Which theory of truth do you work with, Just_a_Joe? If you're not sure, here's a link that might help you pinpoint your own notion of "truth."

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I grew up unchurched in atheism. If my conversion depended on church goers and churches in modern day America, I would still be doing my drugs, occult and other forms of 'searching'. I had sort of a Damascus road experience (see Acts 9) and looking at today's churches I'm glad of it. As a matter of fact, unless the Lord is drawing the person to Himself, the most 'perfect' church and church goers won't avail. It has to be a work of God.
Though there may only be a few serious seekers in a church at any one time, I still will attend in order to be around what brethren (however scarce) there are and to help others that are kind of clueless as to what the 'Faith' is all about.
I find the men's meetings home groups are a good place to go a little deeper.

Interesting story, I appreciate you sharing. And you are the second poster here suggesting that small groups are a better place to see real God in work, if I understood correctly. Maybe because those are attended by more serious believers and the conditions are better for deeper connection. I've been to men's fellowships and Bible studies and small-group prayer meetings, and I wasn't too lucky with finding something drastically better, in my opinion.

Hmm.... if there are very few among multitudes that really get it, then, could it be a serious fault of the message? Could the all-loving and all-knowing God come up with something that was more efficient?

 

[crossnote]

Hmm.... if there are very few among multitudes that really get it, then, could it be a serious fault of the message? Could the all-loving and all-knowing God come up with something that was more efficient?

Don't think so. Noah was a preacher of righteousness for over 100 years; total converts=8'
Moses lead millions out of Egypt with sign and wonders and then the giving of the Law...and still the Israelites moaned and groaned and wanted to go back to Egypt.
If the message of Christ's death (God in the flesh) for their sins doesn't pierce their hearts it is not because of the message but because of the sin that indwells men.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Don't think so. Noah was a preacher of righteousness for over 100 years; total converts=8'
Moses lead millions out of Egypt with sign and wonders and then the giving of the Law...and still the Israelites moaned and groaned and wanted to go back to Egypt.
If the message of Christ's death (God in the flesh) for their sins doesn't pierce their hearts it is not because of the message but because of the sin that indwells men.

Noah and Moses - it's a different thing. Physical salvation or appreciating a new land does not compare to eternity in hell/heaven. The Bible is weak, has contradictions. The many versions of Christianity are confusing. It's not a very convincing tool. Should be something way more effective.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

I'm sorry. I'm not quite sure as to what you mean by "an easy way out," or for whom. In your estimation, what makes truth "true"? Which theory of truth do you work with, Just_a_Joe? If you're not sure, here's a link that might help you pinpoint your own notion of "truth."

Great website, thank you. Easy way out: metaphysical and physical is related, moreover, metaphysical is the foundation of physical according to idealism. Saying that a certain understanding of metaphysics is true because its loss in the physical plane was predicted is a tricky way out. "Yes, there is an all-true ideology, but it didn't work, as was predicted. If its failure was correctly predicted, then it must be true". It's either true and it works, or it's not true and so it simply doesn't work as the result. 1+1=3 isn't true, because if we take 2 rocks and put them together, we get 2. Empirical proof is the basis of determining if smth is true.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Great website, thank you. Easy way out: metaphysical and physical is related, moreover, metaphysical is the foundation of physical according to idealism. Saying that a certain understanding of metaphysics is true because its loss in the physical plane was predicted is a tricky way out. "Yes, there is an all-true ideology, but it didn't work, as was predicted. If its failure was correctly predicted, then it must be true". It's either true and it works, or it's not true and so it simply doesn't work as the result. 1+1=3 isn't true, because if we take 2 rocks and put them together, we get 2. Empirical proof is the basis of determining if smth is true.

I don't know if you realize it, but you seem to be jumbling together different aspects of epistemology. You don't get to use them all ... because they're not all compatible. If you're a Pragmatist, then you can't be an Empiricist. If you're an Idealist, you can't be a Realist. If you're an advocate of the Correspondence Theory of Truth, you can't also be an advocate of the Theory of Coherence. If you think Foundationalism is the framework by with you arrive at truth, you can't also be a Coherentist; and either of these positions can't fit with Reliabilism. If you're a Direct Realist as far as human perception goes, you can't also be a Representative Realist, or an Idealist. And so on, and so forth.

Anyway. I understand that you'd like to see "religion" be effective in a substantial way, and thus far, you don't feel that it has been. The problem here is that all of our approaches to perceiving and structuring 'truth,' particularly as they pertain to religion, are relative to what we each perceive and conceive to be real and substantial, so no one really has the last word when it comes to epistemology, metaphysics or religion, and that puts us all in a tough spot, with each of us awaiting some extra light from God to show us the way.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[rob_aston]

Organized religion seems like an erroneous path to me

this type the devil hates

 

[Just_a_Joe]

this type the devil hates

I didn't understand.

 

[rob_aston]

no prob, i was told when i questioned the need for organization at my church, that devil not too threatened by unorganized, all-over-the-place systems in Christian churches.

But an organized, well-managed, sensitive and understanding system is a BIG threat....devil obsessive about losing his followers or anyone sitting-on-the-fence

 

[Just_a_Joe]

no prob, i was told when i questioned the need for organization at my church, that devil not too threatened by unorganized, all-over-the-place systems in Christian churches.

But an organized, well-managed, sensitive and understanding system is a BIG threat....devil obsessive about losing his followers or anyone sitting-on-the-fence

I see, thank you for explaining. Is the existence of the system the goal in itself, or what is its ultimate goal? Talking about outside threats, it seems that the system is only concerned with continuing to exist in its current form (perhaps gradually evolving). Not regarding the well-being of its individual members, or critically analyzing the underlying ideological contents, purposes and methods, as well as the short-term and long-term results of its existence and activities.

 

[rob_aston]

Not regarding the well-being of its individual members, or critically analyzing the underlying ideological contents, purposes and methods, as well as the short-term and long-term results of its existence and activities.

i been to both these types of church. it is actually healthy for your growth as an discerning man to leave the first type and pray to find the second

 

[ripple the car]

Hi. I am just a seeker, I don't believe in any religion or anything, but I'm simply living and trying to be open-minded about everything. I believe that there are many phenomena and sides to life that we do not really know and understand. For example, what people call "spiritual things". I have been going to all kids of churches and mosques and temples etc. here in Canada, and, to be honest, the people there, the majority, seem to me to be superficial and do not really care about the matters of their faith. I have deep and sincere conversations with them. Not at all looking to argue or to be negative etc. Just as equals, two souls sharing things - trying to show maximum respect and understanding, to hear people as they are. To really try and understand their views, their beliefs, their experiences. Sometimes they get protective seeing me as an "attacker" (though I think I'm absolutely not), or sometimes they prefer not to answer my questions, for example. But generally, people very much appreciate my interest. Yesterday I went to a Pentacostal church service, you know, nothing is different. They are so much the same, all these churches. Again, most honestly, it seems like a theatrical performance, a show. And my heart is strongly seeking and looking for something real. Please do understand me right: I did not come to judge. I came to try and see something real. The people are nice and friendly, and I was very nice, so no problems whatsoever. It's just I can see it's a kind of formality to all of them, starting from the pastors and music people and all church goers. I don't know after many years of these experience I learned how things are and to see if somebody or something is for real, which is a very very rare occurrence - in my experience at least. I have been going through many trials in my life of different nature, but trying to stay strong. I see most support from "spiritual people" coming from non-religious individuals who strongly seek these phenomena with open hearts just by themselves on their own effort. They seem to be most sincere and honest with themselves and people around them... Which requires true inner strength and courage! What do you think? Am I being judgmental, and perhaps it's wrong? I'm not specifically against Christians, I just happen to spend time more among them, and they are nice friendly people, no problems. I have similar impressions of people of any faith. There is much pretense, or there are claims that obviously don't seem to be truthful. Organized religion seems like an erroneous path to me.

As another thought, I've been to many countries in the world, some of them very poor countries, there I've seen more of the true believers I think. Though the problem is present there too. But it seemed to me there if people believed, they believed quite more. Like, stronger and more sincere faith. I don't know. When you spend a limited time as a visitor, you might be mistaken in your impressions. The part of the world I know is pretty materialistic and superficial. It's actually very sad. And also, as people get more educated about since and stuff, it seems they loose faith very much, and why they are holding to faith it's that they have to rationalize many things such as they in reality believe very little.

If you can help me make any sense of it all, I would appreciate it. I hope I do not sound very confusing.

(Sorry for my English - it's not my native language)

Many have struggled with these same issues as they look into world religions and try to figure everything out. Every human being has an innate desire to know about and understand spiritual matters. And come into personal contact with Truth.

Keep asking and we'll answer as best we can. God bless you, in Christ.

 

[crossnote]

Noah and Moses - it's a different thing. Physical salvation or appreciating a new land does not compare to eternity in hell/heaven. The Bible is weak, has contradictions. The many versions of Christianity are confusing. It's not a very convincing tool. Should be something way more effective.

And here I thought you had sincere questions,struggling, wanting help. Naww, I get in trouble if I start defending the bible and get accused for judging. Good bye.