Just need support

[Just_a_Joe]

Hi. I am a seeker, I don't believe in any religion or anything, but I'm simply living and trying to be open-minded about everything. I believe that there are many phenomena and sides to life that we do not really know and understand. For example, what people call "spiritual things". I have been going to all kids of churches and mosques and temples etc. here in Canada, and, to be honest, the people there, the majority, seem to me to be superficial and do not really care about the matters of their faith. I have deep and sincere conversations with them. Not at all looking to argue or to be negative etc. Just as equals, two souls sharing things - trying to show maximum respect and understanding, to hear people as they are. To really try and understand their views, their beliefs, their experiences. Sometimes they get protective seeing me as an "attacker" (though I think I'm absolutely not), or sometimes they prefer not to answer my questions, for example. But generally, people very much appreciate my interest. Yesterday I went to a Pentacostal church service, you know, nothing is different. They are so much the same, all these churches. Again, most honestly, it seems like a theatrical performance, a show. And my heart is strongly seeking and looking for something real. Please do understand me right: I did not come to judge. I came to try and see something real. The people are nice and friendly, and I was very nice, so no problems whatsoever. It's just I can see it's a kind of formality to all of them, starting from the pastors and music people and all church goers. I don't know after many years of these experience I learned how things are and to see if somebody or something is for real, which is a very very rare occurrence - in my experience at least. I have been going through many trials in my life of different nature, but trying to stay strong. I see most support from "spiritual people" coming from non-religious individuals who strongly seek these phenomena with open hearts just by themselves on their own effort. They seem to be most sincere and honest with themselves and people around them... Which requires true inner strength and courage! What do you think? Am I being judgmental, and perhaps it's wrong? I'm not specifically against Christians, I just happen to spend time more among them, and they are nice friendly people, no problems. I have similar impressions of people of any faith. There is much pretense, or there are claims that obviously don't seem to be truthful. Organized religion seems like an erroneous path to me.

As another thought, I've been to many countries in the world, some of them very poor countries, there I've seen more of the true believers I think. Though the problem is present there too. But it seemed to me there if people believed, they believed quite more. Like, stronger and more sincere faith. I don't know. When you spend a limited time as a visitor, you might be mistaken in your impressions. The part of the world I know is pretty materialistic and superficial. It's actually very sad. And also, as people get more educated about since and stuff, it seems they loose faith very much, and why they are holding to faith it's that they have to rationalize many things such as they in reality believe very little.

If you can help me make any sense of it all, I would appreciate it. I hope I do not sound very confusing.

(Sorry for my English - it's not my native language)

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Hi. I am just a seeker, I don't believe in any religion or anything, but I'm simply living and trying to be open-minded about everything. I believe that there are many phenomena and sides to life that we do not really know and understand. For example, what people call "spiritual things". I have been going to all kids of churches and mosques and temples etc. here in Canada, and, to be honest, the people there, the majority, seem to me to be superficial and do not really care about the matters of their faith. I have deep and sincere conversations with them. Not at all looking to argue or to be negative etc. Just as equals, two souls sharing things - trying to show maximum respect and understanding, to hear people as they are. To really try and understand their views, their beliefs, their experiences. Sometimes they get protective seeing me as an "attacker" (though I think I'm absolutely not), or sometimes they prefer not to answer my questions, for example. But generally, people very much appreciate my interest. Yesterday I went to a Pentacostal church service, you know, nothing is different. They are so much the same, all these churches. Again, most honestly, it seems like a theatrical performance, a show. And my heart is strongly seeking and looking for something real. Please do understand me right: I did not come to judge. I came to try and see something real. The people are nice and friendly, and I was very nice, so no problems whatsoever. It's just I can see it's a kind of formality to all of them, starting from the pastors and music people and all church goers. I don't know after many years of these experience I learned how things are and to see if somebody or something is for real, which is a very very rare occurrence - in my experience at least. I have been going through many trials in my life of different nature, but trying to stay strong. I see most support from "spiritual people" coming from non-religious individuals who strongly seek these phenomena with open hearts just by themselves on their own effort. They seem to be most sincere and honest with themselves and people around them... Which requires true inner strength and courage! What do you think? Am I being judgmental, and perhaps it's wrong? I'm not specifically against Christians, I just happen to spend time more among them, and they are nice friendly people, no problems. I have similar impressions of people of any faith. There is much pretense, or there are claims that obviously don't seem to be truthful. Organized religion seems like an erroneous path to me.

As another thought, I've been to many countries in the world, some of them very poor countries, there I've seen more of the true believers I think. Though the problem is present there too. But it seemed to me there if people believed, they believed quite more. Like, stronger and more sincere faith. I don't know. When you spend a limited time as a visitor, you might be mistaken in your impressions. The part of the world I know is pretty materialistic and superficial. It's actually very sad. And also, as people get more educated about since and stuff, it seems they loose faith very much, and why they are holding to faith it's that they have to rationalize many things such as they in reality believe very little.

If you can help me make any sense of it all, I would appreciate it. I hope I do not sound very confusing.

(Sorry for my English - it's not my native language)

Hello Just-a-Joe,

It's not an uncommon thing for someone to be disappointed with what he/she finds in the social circles of organized religion, even when that religious community is expressed through one of the various denominations of Christianity. Some of the disappoint one finds is, I think, due to a tendency to have higher expectations of religion--and Christianity--than what it is meant to express to humanity. Some people are looking for inviolable truth. Others are wanting a direct mystical experience, or even a miracle or two performed before their eyes. Then, there are others who are hoping to find a social community that is free of hypocrites and simpletons. These are are typically touted as things to expect from religion, but Joe, as far as I can tell, the more we look for these kinds of spiritual and social phenomena, the more we're likely going to feel let down.

I think a first consideration that may be useful in countering these disappointments is to try to view Christianity more as a means by which God directs us to live our lives, repair and maintain our relationship with Him, and gain hope; then, we should try to see Christianity less as a means by which to attain certainty about various aspects of truth or as a way by which we might experience a taste of the supernatural. From what I can see in the Bible, what God has intended most for us to 'receive' in this life is grace and wisdom through Jesus Christ, most particularly for the purpose of helping us to fully realize our moral failures before Him and to come to terms with our own mortality.

I'm sorry to hear that religion in general doesn't seem to touch your life and mind in the way that you hoped that it would. Yes, in some ways, I think most of us find ourselves facing the short comings of organized faith as it is expressed through the minds and actions of our fellow neighbors in the world, and at times we feel that we want to turn away. But, on the other hand, I think this shortfall in ours expectations is also something that the Bible tells us to expect as a fairly common occurrence in our spiritual lives.

In light of what I've said above, perhaps try to approach religion and/or Christian faith with a more conscious recognition that religion often feels 'limited' because, maybe, God isn't trying to saturate our reality with spiritual things that are supernatural, inviolable, or even necessarily comfortable, but rather He is presenting to us opportunities and challenges by which to exercise our ongoing choices to follow Him.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Hello Just-a-Joe,

It's not an uncommon thing for someone to be disappointed with what he/she finds in the social circles of organized religion, even when that religious community is expressed through one of the various denominations of Christianity. Some of the disappoint one finds is, I think, due to a tendency to have higher expectations of religion--and Christianity--than what it is meant to express to humanity. Some people are looking for inviolable truth. Others are wanting a direct mystical experience, or even a miracle or two performed before their eyes. Then, there are others who are hoping to find a social community that is free of hypocrites and simpletons. These are are typically touted as things to expect from religion, but Joe, as far as I can tell, the more we look for these kinds of spiritual and social phenomena, the more we're likely going to feel let down.

I think a first consideration that may be useful in countering these disappointments is to try to view Christianity more as a means by which God directs us to live our lives, repair and maintain our relationship with Him, and gain hope; then, we should try to see Christianity less as a means by which to attain certainty about various aspects of truth or as a way by which we might experience a taste of the supernatural. From what I can see in the Bible, what God has intended most for us to 'receive' in this life is grace and wisdom through Jesus Christ, most particularly for the purpose of helping us to fully realize our moral failures before Him and to come to terms with our own mortality.

I'm sorry to hear that religion in general doesn't seem to touch your life and mind in the way that you hoped that it would. Yes, in some ways, I think most of us find ourselves facing the short comings of organized faith as it is expressed through the minds and actions of our fellow neighbors in the world, and at times we feel that we want to turn away. But, on the other hand, I think this shortfall in ours expectations is also something that the Bible tells us to expect as a fairly common occurrence in our spiritual lives.

In light of what I've said above, perhaps try to approach religion and/or Christian faith with a more conscious recognition that religion often feels 'limited' because, maybe, God isn't trying to saturate our reality with spiritual things that are supernatural, inviolable, or even necessarily comfortable, but rather He is presenting to us opportunities and challenges by which to exercise our ongoing choices to follow Him.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

Thank you. I understand.

However, may I say:

If a hospital never really treats anybody from their illnesses, saying please don't have high expectations, because we're only giving you opportunities and challenges, I wouldn't want to go to that hospital for treatment. I would rather find one that did treat people, at least some of them, successfully.

Religions in themselves do contain certain teachings, worldviews, versions of unseen reality that impose certain expectations. The believers, too, have claims based on the above. The gap or discrepancy obvious to me - between those and the actual fact you see with your eyes - is what stirs up questioning. I'm not rejecting that there is some validity and truth to religion. Just not in its entirety?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Thank you. I understand.

However, may I say:

If a hospital never really treats anybody from their illnesses, saying please don't have high expectations, because we're only giving you opportunities and challenges, I wouldn't want to go to that hospital for treatment. I would rather find one that did treat people, at least some of them, successfully.

Religions in themselves do contain certain teachings, worldviews, versions of unseen reality that impose certain expectations. The believers, too, have claims based on the above. The gap or discrepancy obvious to me - between those and the actual fact you see with your eyes - is what stirs up questioning. I'm not rejecting that there is some validity and truth to religion. Just not in its entirety?

While I have suggested to you that it may be beneficial if you lower your expectations in regard to Christian faith, I'm not saying you should jettison them altogether, Joe. It is just that we are dealing with metaphysical entities that, despite their purport to be divine, are nevertheless expressed mainly through human beings and are affected by their understandings (or misunderstandings) of the world in which we live. And, unfortunately, your analogy that religion is some kind of social "hospital" can only extend just so far.

Moreover, I think you need to be more specific rather than general in citing just what it is in Christianity that you feel is "failing" you. What specifically in Christianity do you see is deficient as it is expressed in the real world but upheld in principle in the time-worn pages of its holy book? What aspects of Christian faith as it is practiced among its adherents seem to be superficially expressed or addressed? Are you experiencing emotional abuse at the hands of Christians who should otherwise be compassionate, insightful, and understanding?

Please know that I'm not asking this to imply necessarily a fault on your part, but since you have stated that you are an open-minded individual, then I'd like to assume that your intentions here are to be open to the consideration of other possible angles on the problems that you are experiencing with 'religion.' (And since this is a Christian Forum, I don't think either of us need worry about, or discuss, the failures of other World Religions.)

2PhiloVoid

 

[Greg J.]

Hi. I am just a seeker

You can leave the word just out.

It seems to me that you have discovered humans in your search. I've seen the same thing in churches that you describe. Evidence is that more than 90% of church attenders are not focused on God every day. However, they are out there, although I'm not aware of any sure-fire way to find them. Each of the Christian churches I've attended have had a handful, but unless they've been devoted to the Lord for several decades it is not obvious. I can suggest that you attend gatherings where the only purpose is to pray. In my experience, 30% to 80%+ of regular prayer group attenders are devoted. Talk with the old people.

God comes close to those that persist in drawing closer to him, are trying to be obedient, and who have needs that only he can meet.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

You can leave the word just out.

OK, thank you. My English.

It seems to me that you have discovered humans in your search. I've seen the same thing in churches that you describe. Evidence is that more than 90% of church attenders are not focused on God every day. However, they are out there, although I'm not aware of any sure-fire way to find them. Each of the Christian churches I've attended have had a handful, but unless they've been devoted to the Lord for several decades it is not obvious. I can suggest that you attend gatherings where the only purpose is to pray. In my experience, 30% to 80%+ of regular prayer group attenders are devoted. Talk with the old people.

God comes close to those that persist in drawing closer to him, are trying to be obedient, and who have needs that only he can meet.

I think religion is human, so I see no difference where humans stop and religions start. It's the same thing. Discovering humans is discovering, among other things, their beliefs, convictions, behavior, thoughts, worldview, emotions, actions, experiences. This is all part of humans and therefore part of religions. I have been to different kinds of religious gatherings. Some where more interesting than others. There were more devoted people at some than at the others. And churches are different to a degree when you compare them with each other. Overall, especially here in Canada, my impression is that they are very confusing and somewhat phony. I really don't understand, what's the point? Sometimes looking at their constant money-asking and how much they receive, is it a lucrative business? But it is probably too simplistic. There's more to it. But what? Social fellowship?

 

[crossnote]

Two verses come to mind reading the OP...

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.(Act 4:13)

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
(Jas 2:5)

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hi. I am just a seeker, I don't believe in any religion or anything, but I'm simply living and trying to be open-minded about everything. I believe that there are many phenomena and sides to life that we do not really know and understand. For example, what people call "spiritual things". I have been going to all kids of churches and mosques and temples etc. here in Canada, and, to be honest, the people there, the majority, seem to me to be superficial and do not really care about the matters of their faith. I have deep and sincere conversations with them. Not at all looking to argue or to be negative etc. Just as equals, two souls sharing things - trying to show maximum respect and understanding, to hear people as they are. To really try and understand their views, their beliefs, their experiences. Sometimes they get protective seeing me as an "attacker" (though I think I'm absolutely not), or sometimes they prefer not to answer my questions, for example. But generally, people very much appreciate my interest. Yesterday I went to a Pentacostal church service, you know, nothing is different. They are so much the same, all these churches. Again, most honestly, it seems like a theatrical performance, a show. And my heart is strongly seeking and looking for something real. Please do understand me right: I did not come to judge. I came to try and see something real. The people are nice and friendly, and I was very nice, so no problems whatsoever. It's just I can see it's a kind of formality to all of them, starting from the pastors and music people and all church goers. I don't know after many years of these experience I learned how things are and to see if somebody or something is for real, which is a very very rare occurrence - in my experience at least. I have been going through many trials in my life of different nature, but trying to stay strong. I see most support from "spiritual people" coming from non-religious individuals who strongly seek these phenomena with open hearts just by themselves on their own effort. They seem to be most sincere and honest with themselves and people around them... Which requires true inner strength and courage! What do you think? Am I being judgmental, and perhaps it's wrong? I'm not specifically against Christians, I just happen to spend time more among them, and they are nice friendly people, no problems. I have similar impressions of people of any faith. There is much pretense, or there are claims that obviously don't seem to be truthful. Organized religion seems like an erroneous path to me.

As another thought, I've been to many countries in the world, some of them very poor countries, there I've seen more of the true believers I think. Though the problem is present there too. But it seemed to me there if people believed, they believed quite more. Like, stronger and more sincere faith. I don't know. When you spend a limited time as a visitor, you might be mistaken in your impressions. The part of the world I know is pretty materialistic and superficial. It's actually very sad. And also, as people get more educated about since and stuff, it seems they loose faith very much, and why they are holding to faith it's that they have to rationalize many things such as they in reality believe very little.

If you can help me make any sense of it all, I would appreciate it. I hope I do not sound very confusing.

(Sorry for my English - it's not my native language)

Don't take this as an insult, ok, because it's not meant that way, but I want to be very honest.

What you seem to be seeking is an experience of spirituality of some sort, but Christianity is not just an experience of spirituality, whatever that is. It's not random, or what one makes of it, or something to be compared to other religions. It is specific.

It is One God only. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The ONLY GOD.

You seem to be looking for something very vague. Maybe your looking to feel a certain way when you are around people or maybe you are seeking to have a certain experience when you visit these places, but your kind of 'barking up the wrong tree', because our God is not a random belief, but the ONE AND ONLY GOD. We do not live for or because of an experience that we want to have or to latch on to an experience someone else has had, it is much deeper than that.

As long as you are looking for any experience and are looking for Christians to discuss any experience, I think you may be disappointed because our God is not ANY GOD, HE IS THE ONLY GOD. Trying to create an experience is the objective you hope to come out of all your experimentation with. We do not create an experience for ourselves by serving God, our God is the experience. Not just one time, one experience over one day, but our experience throughtout our lives with Him as we commune with Him. It is very specific, one God with each person individually.

I hope this makes some sense to you. I don't know if I am saying what I am trying to say right.

I would only say that one does not go to McDonald's to experience gourmet dining. If you are looking for God to give you a spiritual experience or insight, pray to God and ask for that. Do not look everywhere for a God who you can access anytime you want to through prayer.

God bless.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Hi. I am just a seeker, I don't believe in any religion or anything, but I'm simply living and trying to be open-minded about everything. I believe that there are many phenomena and sides to life that we do not really know and understand. For example, what people call "spiritual things". I have been going to all kids of churches and mosques and temples etc. here in Canada, and, to be honest, the people there, the majority, seem to me to be superficial and do not really care about the matters of their faith. I have deep and sincere conversations with them. Not at all looking to argue or to be negative etc. Just as equals, two souls sharing things - trying to show maximum respect and understanding, to hear people as they are. To really try and understand their views, their beliefs, their experiences. Sometimes they get protective seeing me as an "attacker" (though I think I'm absolutely not), or sometimes they prefer not to answer my questions, for example. But generally, people very much appreciate my interest. Yesterday I went to a Pentacostal church service, you know, nothing is different. They are so much the same, all these churches. Again, most honestly, it seems like a theatrical performance, a show. And my heart is strongly seeking and looking for something real. Please do understand me right: I did not come to judge. I came to try and see something real. The people are nice and friendly, and I was very nice, so no problems whatsoever. It's just I can see it's a kind of formality to all of them, starting from the pastors and music people and all church goers. I don't know after many years of these experience I learned how things are and to see if somebody or something is for real, which is a very very rare occurrence - in my experience at least. I have been going through many trials in my life of different nature, but trying to stay strong. I see most support from "spiritual people" coming from non-religious individuals who strongly seek these phenomena with open hearts just by themselves on their own effort. They seem to be most sincere and honest with themselves and people around them... Which requires true inner strength and courage! What do you think? Am I being judgmental, and perhaps it's wrong? I'm not specifically against Christians, I just happen to spend time more among them, and they are nice friendly people, no problems. I have similar impressions of people of any faith. There is much pretense, or there are claims that obviously don't seem to be truthful. Organized religion seems like an erroneous path to me.

As another thought, I've been to many countries in the world, some of them very poor countries, there I've seen more of the true believers I think. Though the problem is present there too. But it seemed to me there if people believed, they believed quite more. Like, stronger and more sincere faith. I don't know. When you spend a limited time as a visitor, you might be mistaken in your impressions. The part of the world I know is pretty materialistic and superficial. It's actually very sad. And also, as people get more educated about since and stuff, it seems they loose faith very much, and why they are holding to faith it's that they have to rationalize many things such as they in reality believe very little.

If you can help me make any sense of it all, I would appreciate it. I hope I do not sound very confusing.

(Sorry for my English - it's not my native language)

Hi there!

1) Your English is excellent!

2) John 14.6 has a very relevant message when it comes to the many ideas that there are around.

 

[1watchman]

Joe, if you don't believe there is a Creator-God, and we are made much like unto His image, as He says, then all the reasoning in the world will not help you. You will then die in your sinful nature (which we all have) and will be cast away in condemnation by the Creator, as He also tells us. Let me invite you to read God's Word beginning first at John 1; John 3; John 14, and see what God has to say to you. God says: "ye must be born again" (John 3) and that only comes by receiving God's beloved Son --the Lord Jesus.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Joe, if you don't believe there is a Creator-God, and we are made much like unto His image, as He says, then all the reasoning in the world will not help you. You will then die in your sinful nature (which we all have) and will be cast away in condemnation by the Creator, as He also tells us. Let me invite you to read God's Word beginning first at John 1; John 3; John 14, and see what God has to say to you. God says: "ye must be born again" (John 3) and that only comes by receiving God's beloved Son --the Lord Jesus.

Yup. A spiritual birth. Being born of God spiritually and to be taught the spiritual things of God.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Yup. A spiritual birth. Being born of God spiritually and to be taught the spiritual things of God.

Yes; and it's all part of what the Lord Jesus said when he told Nicodemus: "Ye must be born again"; John 3 makes for a great Bible study.

 

[Poppyseed78]

People, by their nature, are flawed. Thus, seeking God in your interactions with churches simply won't yield the result you are looking for. Churches are run by people.

It sounds like what you are seeking is a relationship with God. Getting to know God is attainable through prayer and reading the Bible. Listening to other people's experiences, opinions, and interpretations of scripture could be a good starting point for learning about Christ, but it's not enough if what you seek is a deep, meaningful relationship with God.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Two verses come to mind reading the OP...

Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.(Act 4:13)

Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?
(Jas 2:5)

In today's church it's different, isn't it? Yes, from church history I know that in the first 2-3 centuries after Jesus, the Christian churches weren't among the most popular places to come to. So, naturally, those who held a high position in society, did not rush to go there.

 

[crossnote]

In today's church it's different, isn't it? Yes, from church history I know that in the first 2-3 centuries after Jesus, the Christian churches weren't among the most popular places to come to. So, naturally, those who held a high position in society, did not rush to go there.

I grew up unchurched in atheism. If my conversion depended on church goers and churches in modern day America, I would still be doing my drugs, occult and other forms of 'searching'. I had sort of a Damascus road experience (see Acts 9) and looking at today's churches I'm glad of it. As a matter of fact, unless the Lord is drawing the person to Himself, the most 'perfect' church and church goers won't avail. It has to be a work of God.
Though there may only be a few serious seekers in a church at any one time, I still will attend in order to be around what brethren (however scarce) there are and to help others that are kind of clueless as to what the 'Faith' is all about.
I find the men's meetings home groups are a good place to go a little deeper.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

While I have suggested to you that it may be beneficial if you lower your expectations in regard to Christian faith, I'm not saying you should jettison them altogether, Joe. It is just that we are dealing with metaphysical entities that, despite their purport to be divine, are nevertheless expressed mainly through human beings and are affected by their understandings (or misunderstandings) of the world in which we live. And, unfortunately, your analogy that religion is some kind of social "hospital" can only extend just so far.

Moreover, I think you need to be more specific rather than general in citing just what it is in Christianity that you feel is "failing" you. What specifically in Christianity do you see is deficient as it is expressed in the real world but upheld in principle in the time-worn pages of its holy book? What aspects of Christian faith as it is practiced among its adherents seem to be superficially expressed or addressed? Are you experiencing emotional abuse at the hands of Christians who should otherwise be compassionate, insightful, and understanding?

Please know that I'm not asking this to imply necessarily a fault on your part, but since you have stated that you are an open-minded individual, then I'd like to assume that your intentions here are to be open to the consideration of other possible angles on the problems that you are experiencing with 'religion.' (And since this is a Christian Forum, I don't think either of us need worry about, or discuss, the failures of other World Religions.)

2PhiloVoid

Yes, the teaching in the Bible and Christianity is mainly or more importantly about how to find God and to fulfill your purpose, it's not only about this limited physical living. But that's the thing!! How can you accept something, that (for me) does not pass a simple test? I think - no, Christianity doesn't work.

My analogy isn't just about healing or fixing - I could say "a car not running", or "a plane not flying" etc. Claims as opposed to reality.

No problems from individual believers whatsoever, never. I've encountered a handful who got upset with me because of my "hard-headed" refusal to accept the tenants. Sometimes after years of knowing each other and many discussions. They gave me some unpleasant labels, but I do understand them and it's not a problem with me.

There are so many versions of Christianity. I'm familiar with many, and quite well I think. Some are more "likable" than others to me, in different ways - in the sense of appealing to my conscience and mind.

I don't know. The teaching seems to be not true - not in its entirety, whichever denomination's interpretation you consider. Some of the teaching is obviously true, like, on morality or history or human nature etc. I sometimes think, maybe Jesus Christ did know and teach much more than what was left of his teaching in the Bible? Because some points of the teaching are very powerful and true.

But there are problems. Like, for example, to state that all truth is contained on the pages of a limited collection of books... "I know one thing that I know nothing", goes Socrates' paradox. Or that your eternity depends on a certain version of interpreting this anthology of writings compiled in III-rd century A.D. And that there is one and infallible truth that is the result of somebody's interpretation. Those are such small and subjective borders for an eternal endless truth.

There are claims of supernatural involvement of an all-powerful entity. I do not see it at all. I see a failed attempt at pretending to present that there is such involvement. To me, the failed state of churches, and I mean, completely failed state, is a proof their existence is not based on true claims, but rather a largely (but not completely) mistaken ideology. Or did they all get it wrong?!

Or, as mentioned in OP, I've seen more sincerity in societies where a Christian belief can work - simple, poor, more open, communal and direct, much less materialistic and more about basic survival. Maybe that's the problem? Christianity cannot be a modest addition to a building, but a complete building on its own from foundation to the roof? I mean, it cannot work and is bound to fail as a weak insertion into the modern-day very strong ideology of individualism, selfishness, materialism, humanism? Because if I understand correctly, the basis for Christ's teaching is denial of private property, a Utopian communism, a radical formation of society, a complete revolution or transformation as opposed to some cosmetic improvement. As Jesus is teaching to look into the afterlife, that is His absolute focus. Is that it??

I really do not want to sound hard-core negativistic. I do find much value and beauty in Christian faith and churches. Otherwise why would I be attending and have friendships and discussions? It just does not "cut it" for me. I'm finding too much of contradictions and problems, to accept as truth.

P.S. I hope I'm not washing out our discussion and bringing too many or too confusing thoughts.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Yes, the teaching in the Bible and Christianity is mainly or more importantly about how to find God and to fulfill your purpose, it's not only about this limited physical living. But that's the thing!! How can you accept something, that (for me) does not pass a simple test? I think - no, Christianity doesn't work.

My analogy isn't just about healing or fixing - I could say "a car not running", or "a plane not flying" etc. Claims as opposed to reality.

No problems from individual believers whatsoever, never. I've encountered a handful who got upset with me because of my "hard-headed" refusal to accept the tenants. Sometimes after years of knowing each other and many discussions. They gave me some unpleasant labels, but I do understand them and it's not a problem with me.

There are so many versions of Christianity. I'm familiar with many, and quite well I think. I don't know. The teaching seems to be not true - not in its entirety, whichever denomination's interpretation you consider. Some of the teaching is obviously true, like, on morality or history or human nature etc. I sometimes think, maybe Jesus Christ did know and teach much more than what was left of his teaching in the Bible? Because some points of the teaching are very powerful and true.

But there are problems. Like, for example, to state that all truth is contained on the pages of a limited collection of books... "I know one thing that I know nothing", goes Socrates' paradox. Or that your eternity depends on a certain version of interpreting this anthology of writings compiled in III-rd century A.D. And that there is one and infallible truth that is the result of somebody's interpretation. Those are such small and subjective borders for an eternal endless truth.

There are claims of supernatural involvement of an all-powerful entity. I do not see it at all. I see a failed attempt at pretending to present that there is such involvement. To me, the failed state of churches, and I mean, completely failed state, is a proof their existence is not based on true claims, but rather a largely (but not completely) mistaken ideology. Or did they all get it wrong?!

I do not want to sound hard-core negativistic, though... I do find much value and beauty in Christian faith and churches. Otherwise why would I be attending and have friendships and discussions? It just does not "cut it" for me. I'm finding too much contradictions and problems, to accept as truth.

Ok. You and I apparently have different epistemological expectations, and so we see things differently on the subject of Christianity and as to the validity of the conclusions that we feel led to end with. However, I don't think that churches which fail morally indicate that Christianity has failed metaphysically, otherwise all those warnings in the New Testament about watching out for false prophets, false Christians, religious counterfeits, and adulterous and/or lukewarm churches basically had, and has, no meaning. But, then we have to ask, why are those warnings there?

Anyway, I wish you the best with the process of constructing your epistemology throughout your life.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

 

[ToBeLoved]

Like, for example, to state that all truth is contained on the pages of a limited collection of books... "I know one thing that I know nothing", goes Socrates' paradox. Or that your eternity depends on a certain version of interpreting this anthology of writings compiled in III-rd century A.D. And that there is one and infallible truth that is the result of somebody's interpretation. Those are such small and subjective borders for an eternal endless truth.

Who said all truth is in the Bible?

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Don't take this as an insult, ok, because it's not meant that way, but I want to be very honest.

What you seem to be seeking is an experience of spirituality of some sort, but Christianity is not just an experience of spirituality, whatever that is. It's not random, or what one makes of it, or something to be compared to other religions. It is specific.

It is One God only. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The ONLY GOD.

You seem to be looking for something very vague. Maybe your looking to feel a certain way when you are around people or maybe you are seeking to have a certain experience when you visit these places, but your kind of 'barking up the wrong tree', because our God is not a random belief, but the ONE AND ONLY GOD. We do not live for or because of an experience that we want to have or to latch on to an experience someone else has had, it is much deeper than that.

As long as you are looking for any experience and are looking for Christians to discuss any experience, I think you may be disappointed because our God is not ANY GOD, HE IS THE ONLY GOD. Trying to create an experience is the objective you hope to come out of all your experimentation with. We do not create an experience for ourselves by serving God, our God is the experience. Not just one time, one experience over one day, but our experience throughtout our lives with Him as we commune with Him. It is very specific, one God with each person individually.

I hope this makes some sense to you. I don't know if I am saying what I am trying to say right.

I would only say that one does not go to McDonald's to experience gourmet dining. If you are looking for God to give you a spiritual experience or insight, pray to God and ask for that. Do not look everywhere for a God who you can access anytime you want to through prayer.

God bless.

Great point. Then, what's the purpose of the Bible and the churches and missions and hymns and Christian schools etc? I agree in that your own search for God can only bring you to God. Not some fixed teaching, which is limiting.

 

[Just_a_Joe]

Ok. You and I apparently have different epistemological expectations, and so we see things differently on the subject of Christianity and as to the validity of the conclusions that we feel led to end with. However, I don't think that churches which fail morally indicate that Christianity has failed metaphysically, otherwise all those warnings in the New Testament about watching out for false prophets, false Christians, religious counterfeits, and adulterous and/or lukewarm churches basically had, and has, no meaning. But, then we have to ask, why are those warnings there?

Anyway, I wish you the best with the process of constructing your epistemology throughout your life.

Peace
2PhiloVoid

It's an easy way out, but not a solution, I think. "This is true, but it's not going to work even though it's true, because the conditions aren't right". Then it's not true!