Just a quick question for law proponents.

[Frogster]

The "end" of the law does not mean "termination" of the law. The expression here means that Jesus is the ultimate goal, the farthest/highest "standard" or "reaching point" of the law.

The following verse demonstrates this point well:

"Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy." (James 5:11)​

Did the Lord "end"? lol.

NUMEROUS commentators have commented on Romans 10:4, and most agree it is referring to a "goal", not a termination. For example, the "end" of a pole does not mean the termination of the pole, but the furthest point of the pole. The tip of it.

Even the new NIV seems to understand this:

"Christ is the culmination of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4)​

This is actually a proof verse for Adventists. It proves that the law is a transcript of Christ's character. It proves that Christ is a living, walking manifestation of the law of righteousness. Christ is the "EMBODIMENT" of the law. Christ is our standard, and that is the standard we are to aim for.

When we are IN Christ, we will walk as He walked. He didn't do it "for" us in the sense that we don't have to. He did it "FOR" us as an example to show that it could be done, and so that man could now follow Him as well. That is why He is our "example".

stop acting like telos does not also mean END.


on a football field, where is the goal post?


swooooshh..

besides, it says abolished IN HIS FLESH, eph 2;15, how much more than that do ya need?

lets leave adam on the cross, ok bro?.

 

[Lysimachus]

No one overcomes the world by keeping the law... no one except Jesus has kept the law... we overcome the world by believing and receiving the righteousness of CHRIST...

And if you receive the righteousness of Christ, you will "overcome" as "Christ overcame" (Rev 3:21).

We have enough verses that tell us that those who "DO" His commandments will walk in through the gates. Rev 22:14, etc.

Let's not make this more complicated than it is. The reason people constantly object to the importance of obedience to the law is because they really don't want to have to put forth the effort, and are more comfortable with the idea that if Jesus did it, they don't have to do it.

Those who have truly been converted will feel a passion to please God in every way possible, and will never object to keeping the law. If they object to keeping the law of God (and by this, I don't mean the ceremonial law which has been abolished), then it leaves one to question how much they really want to do what is right.

 

[James 75]

Yes, yes and no. He just didn't believe that the law was the solution to the problem.

That is way too funny.

 

[Frogster]

Do you know what "living by faith" means?
Do you know the meaning of the word 'pistos'?
Do you know what the term "trusting faithfulness" means?

Living by faith isn't about "just believing" - the demons also believe.

i never said we don't love works, but law santification does not work.

unless we want perfection through the flah, gal 3;3.


bro, dontcha see..that is what the judaistic forces were doing, adding moses to go on to a higher level.

why were they running well, gal 5;7, UNTIL THE LAW PEOPLE CAME.

 

[tzadik]

we know the law is for sinners..we know...

If by Law you mean Torah of G-d.

Torah is for those who use it lawfully for instruction* (1 Tim 1:8)
Torah is for instruction, correction, reproof
Torah is to warn the believer (Psalm 19)
Torah is to teach us how to walk in His ways (Psalm 119:1)
Torah reveals G-d's plan of redemption
Torah teaches EVERYONE what is right and what is wrong
Torah produces many patterns and recitals of wonderful things to come
Torah is the goal of Messiah
Torah is righteousness
Torah is perfect
Torah is sweeter than honey
Torah is better than choice gold
Torah is the Word of G-d

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

stop acting like telos does not also mean END.

lets leave adam on the cross, ok bro?.

I also discussed that on a previous post

http://www.christianforums.com/t7613900-17/#post59207476

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I decided to look up that particular form of the greek word used in that verse and
it is used 3 times in Revelation, out of the 33 verses of the NT/NC used, concerning Jesus being the Beginning and End....pretty kewl

 

[Frogster]

Who was bound in sin and law until Abraham? Are you saying that everyone from Adam until Abraham were bound in sin and law? and after Abraham they were loosed? What law were they bound to?


Romans 10 is ridiculously mistranslated and twisted as "Messiah ends His Father's Torah".
It's so simple if you were to take your own advice and see the Scriptures as a whole. The difference in my perspective of it and your is that you see Scriptures as an ever changing movie, whereas I see the Author of the movie and the rules of the movie to be everlasting, just like its Author. He has one life manual for all of His people. It's up to His people whether or not they accept it or reject it, believe it or bury it, obey it or abolish it.

it says all..right here>>>obviously once the law came in..

but it was until the promise. notice the promise word in 22.

22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

23Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed.


the promise is now what were are in. Shows again, abe could not have the torah.

 

[Lysimachus]

stop acting like telos does not also mean END.


on a football field, where is the goal post?


swooooshh..

besides, it says abolished IN HIS FLESH, eph 2;15, how much more than that do ya need?

lets leave adam on the cross, ok bro?.

And stop pretending like you refuted me. lol. My argument still stands. You're looking at my arguments very superficially, without grasping the import of what is being said.

Ephesians 2:15 is exactly why I don't circumcise, why I don't offer meat and drink offerings, why I don't celebrate any ceremonial ordinances. These are those "contained IN ordinances".

Christ now performs these ordinances symbolically and spiritually in the heavenly sanctuary.

But the base law, the moral law for which those ordinance laws were a remedy for, still stands. All the ceremonial ordinances were the "remedy" to deal with the problem of sin against the main law encased below the throne of God, but they were not the main law, but added laws to deal with problem of sin against the main law.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Frogster stop acting like telos does not also mean END.

Stop acting like "telos" is not the word for "end" in James 5:11

Guess I will just let Frogster and Lysimachus butt heads for awhile
Btw, where is from scratch?

http://www.christianforums.com/misc.php?do=whoposted&t=7613900
Who Posted?
Total Posts: 289

from scratch 64
Frogster 58
LittleLambofJesus 52

 

[Frogster]

If by Law you mean Torah of G-d.

Torah is for those who use it lawfully for instruction* (1 Tim 1:8)
Torah is for instruction, correction, reproof
Torah is to warn the believer (Psalm 19)
Torah is to teach us how to walk in His ways (Psalm 119:1)
Torah reveals G-d's plan of redemption
Torah teaches EVERYONE what is right and what is wrong
Torah produces many patterns and recitals of wonderful things to come
Torah is the goal of Messiah
Torah is righteousness
Torah is perfect
Torah is sweeter than honey
Torah is better than choice gold
Torah is the Word of G-d

sure, in 1 tim 1, paul said the law is not for the just, get the law boys outta your church!

u forgot how the law works wrath, rom 4;15, and it has nothing, nothing to do with the promise.

 

[Lysimachus]

stop acting like telos does not also mean END.

Stop acting like "telos" is not the word for "end" in James 5:11

 

[Frogster]

And stop pretending like you refuted me. lol. My argument still stands. You're looking at my arguments very superficially, without grasping the import of what is being said.

Ephesians 2:15 is exactly why I don't circumcise, why I don't offer meat and drink offerings, why I don't celebrate any ceremonial ordinances. These are those "contained IN ordinances".

Christ now performs these ordinances symbolically and spiritually in the heavenly sanctuary.

But the base law, the moral law for which those ordinance laws were a remedy for, still stands. All the ceremonial ordinances were the "remedy" to deal with the problem of sin against the main law encased below the throne of God, but they were not the main law, but added laws to deal with problem of sin against the main law.

excuse me, but not only was the law one. james 2;10, josh 1;8, lev 26;15, deut 28;58, gal 3;10, gal 5;3..

but your acting like the dead in sins and TRESPASSES were about ceremonies in 2;1.

why after abolishment, were we reconciled TO GOD, in 2;16, and TO THE FATHER, in 2;18?

All because of ceremonies?!

lol..reconsider your position there bro. Alot more than circumcision..

dead in ceremonies?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Frogster stop acting like telos does not also mean END.

Stop acting like "telos" is not the word for "end" in James 5:11

You 2 need to get a room

 

[Frogster]

Stop acting like "telos" is not the word for "end" in James 5:11

sorry..believes in 10;4.and that ends law...

same here, look to other scriptures to be confirmed my friend.



22But the Scripture imprisoned everything under sin, so that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.


then no more mean ole pedagogue...

 

[Lysimachus]

I also discussed that on a previous post

http://www.christianforums.com/t7613900-17/#post59207476

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I decided to look up that particular form of the greek word used in that verse and
it is used 3 times in Revelation, out of the 33 verses of the NT/NC used, concerning Jesus being the Beginning and End....pretty kewl

Exactly. Jesus is the "end", He was not terminated. Jesus still exist, and will exist forever. Just like His law will last forever. "Thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy law is the truth." (Psalms 119:142) "They [all his commandments] stand fast for ever and ever, and are done in truth and uprightness." (Psalms 111:8)

 

[Lysimachus]

excuse me, but not only was the law one. james 2;10, josh 1;8, lev 26;15, deut 28;58, gal 3;10, gal 5;3..

but your acting like the dead in sins and TRESPASSES were about ceremonies in 2;1.

why after abolishment, were we reconciled TO GOD, in 2;66, and TO THE FATHER, in 2;18?

All because of ceremonies?!

lol..reconsider your position there bro. Alot more than circumcision..

dead in ceremonies?

James 2:12 "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty."

 

[Frogster]

James 2:12 "So speak ye, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty."

what does this have to do with my post?

come on now bro..was he just talking ceremonies in the abolishment verse?

 

[Lysimachus]

Guess I will just let Frogster and Lysimachus butt heads for awhile
Btw, where is from scratch?

You would do yourself a great service if you would quit defending him so much.

 

[Lysimachus]

what does this have to do with my post?

come on now bro..was he just talking ceremonies in the abolishment verse?

Yes he was. If you don't want the scriptures to contradict themselves that is.

 

[Lysimachus]

WHAT LAW WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS????? PT.1 - YouTube

WHAT LAW WAS NAILED TO THE CROSS????? PT.2 - YouTube