Just a quick question for law proponents.

[visionary]

To be reconciled to God is a process, not a statement to nod your head at.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

To be reconciled to God is a process, not a statement to nod your head at.

Beware the works of evil or they will fall back on yer own head

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G604 matches the Greek ἀποκαταλλάσσω (apokatallassō), which occurs 3 times in 3 verses in the Greek concordance of the KJV

NKJV) Ephesians 2:16 and that He might reconcile them both to God in one body through the cross, thereby putting to death the enmity.
NKJV) Colossians 1:20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked/ponhroiV <4190> works, yet now He has reconciled

NKJV) Revelation 16:2 So the first went and poured out his bowl upon the earth, and a foul and loathsome/grievous/ponhron <4190> sore came upon the men who had the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image.

 

[visionary]

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

 

[visionary]

excuse me..why leave Abraham, who was our example? used in Rom 4, and 9, and Gal 3 and 4? lets not act like the bible did not use him , to ward off the torah from the churches.

How could Abraham have torah, when the scriptures say, he did not have it till 430 yerars later? gal 3;17

Do u realize the fact, that if Abraham had the Torah, paul could not..not..use Abe to ward off torah? Otherwise we gentiles, you and me, would have to com ein by judaism TOTALLY TOATLLY, against ALL NT theology!

look here..the law voids the promise, so how could Abe have torah?

it would self destruct, the promise that is, if abe had torah.


4;14 For if it is the adherents of the law who are to be the heirs, faith is null and the promise is void

Circumcisions will be performed within the next five years on 20 million African men to help reduce the spread of AIDS, according to a program announced Monday night by the US government and UN and advocated by the Jerusalem-based Operation Abraham project. snip snip

 

[tzadik]

2 Timothy 2:22
Flee the evil desires of youth and pursue righteousness, faith, love and peace, along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

How can you pursue righteousness. I thought righteousness is the synonym of salvation?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Circumcisions will be performed within the next five years on 20 million African men to help reduce the spread of AIDS, according to a program announced Monday night by the US government and UN and advocated by the Jerusalem-based Operation Abraham project. snip snip

That is for health reasons, not as the "sign" spoken of in the OT/OC.

Genesis 17:24 Now, Abraham was ninety-nine years old,--when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 On this selfsame day, was Abraham circumcised,--and Ishmael his son;

http://www.christianforums.com/t7576320/#post57988913
Paul the Circumciser (Acts 16v3)

NKJV) Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had while still] uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,

Even the Muslims circumcise themselves because of Ishmael also being circumcised

http://www.christianforums.com/t1378557-3/#post14420072
Circumcision: Quran, Sunnah & Hadith

While you are correct in stating that Muslims follow in the footsteps of Abraham by circumcizing as a sign that we are followers of Abrahams Sunnah.
That does not however mean that we are subject to the laws in the the Hebrew Bible or Christian Bible of today. Because we are only required to follow the Quran and Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad since the other two scriptures have been altered.

 

[tzadik]

NKJV) Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had while still] uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,

That verse is an interesting one. He received the sign of circumcision.
Do you think that teaches us that those of us (Gentiles) who also receive the righteousness of faith must receive the sign of circumcision; as our father Abraham did?
Or is the circumcision mentioned here a "circumcision of the heart" as mentioned by Paul when he gives his famous "he isn't a Jew who is circumcised of the flesh, but the one circumcised of the heart" speech?
Or are we not to do anything at all and see this as simple a verse stating something that happened to our father Abraham that doesn't mean anything to us?

 

[visionary]

How can you pursue righteousness. I thought righteousness is the synonym of salvation?

Righteousness is a walk, salvation is the hand offered by God to help you in your walk with Him.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That verse is an interesting one. He received the sign of circumcision.
Do you think that teaches us that those of us (Gentiles) who also receive the righteousness of faith must receive the sign of circumcision; as our father Abraham did?
Or is the circumcision mentioned here a "circumcision of the heart" as mentioned by Paul when he gives his famous "he isn't a Jew who is circumcised of the flesh, but the one circumcised of the heart" speech?
Or are we not to do anything at all and see this as simple a verse stating something that happened to our father Abraham that doesn't mean anything to us?

We could start a thread on that

http://www.christianforums.com/t7588802/
Circumcision - The Everlasting Covenant

What I'm curious to know is how Christian apologists explain away the fact that circumcision was established as an everlasting covenant, yet was abolished in the New Testament by Paul (who himself was circumcised). I use the Noah story as another example because we clearly still see rainbows and there hasn't been a global flood since the Biblical record, so God could have been said to have lived up to his side of that everlasting covenant. Why then would he change his mind about circumcision? Why is the rainbow an everlasting covenant but circumcision not?

Or, to put it another way, did God break the covenant of circumcision? The Jews certainly didn't.

 

[tzadik]

Righteousness is a walk, salvation is the hand offered by God to help you in your walk with Him.

I agree. So when you see "Abraham believed and it was imputed unto him for righteousness". Do you see that "impution" as salvation or something else?

 

[someguy14]

We could start a thread on that

http://www.christianforums.com/t7588802/
Circumcision - The Everlasting Covenant

noooooooooooooooooooo

 

[from scratch]

To be reconciled to God is a process, not a statement to nod your head at.

Yes and that process is completed when one confesses
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Yes and that process is completed when one confesses
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10

Luke 16:31 Saying yet to him "if Moses and the Prophets not they are hearing, neither if ever anyone out of dead-ones may be rising, they shall be being persuaded".

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

 

[tzadik]

Yes and that process is completed when one confesses
9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. Romans 10

But our walk with G-d does not end at salvation, it actually begins there.

 

[from scratch]

How can you pursue righteousness. I thought righteousness is the synonym of salvation?

So sad to be so limited.

 

[Frogster]

While I technically agree with this statement, I disagree with his interpretation of it. "Under the law" does not mean "not keep the law". Under the law means "guilty of violating it". The law only demands perfect obedience. Those who are under Grace were ones who once violated the law, but repented (turned away from sin--transgression of the law). Now, by Grace through Faith, they are able to obey it, not of themselves, but in Christ. It is Christ in them that is able to do it. You can do nothing of yourself. You are helpless. Our works are like filthy rags, but once we are IN Christ, Christ works in us and strengthens us and gives us the power and victory to "overcome". They are not "our" works, they are Christ works working THROUGH us.

Overcoming sin is the main characteristic of God's end-time church according to Revelation 2 and 3. It mentions the word "overcome" or "overcometh" numerous times. "To him that overcometh....will I grant". Etc. etc. Only those who overcome can inherent the kingdom of heaven.

I just wish you guys would see this truth!!

Where is someone in here who will stand up and say "I SEE IT!" And follow through? And say "I agree, we're in this together! Let's work on our defects of character together, and overcome sin--let's help one another!"

WHERE???

Commandment breakers and those who try to attain the law of righteousness by works (of themselves) = Under the Law

Commandment keepers who attain the law of righteousness by Grace through faith alone (in Christ) = Under Grace

you're wrong, because the usage is clear, under law, one is under the power of the law, sorry bro, under law is more than just what you think.Yes, condemnation alos, gee, what a wonderful life under law!


Romans 6 is all about mastery, the sinful nature etc, and UNDER LAW, sin will have dominion.


6;14For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus We could start a thread on that

http://www.christianforums.com/t7588802/
Circumcision - The Everlasting Covenant

noooooooooooooooooooo

Circumcision threads are fun

http://www.christianforums.com/t7576320-8/#post57998897

Originally Posted by Dan the Man Do you honestly think that whether or not your tally-whacker is trimmed has anything to do with anything???

 

[from scratch]

That is for health reasons, not as the "sign" spoken of in the OT/OC.

Genesis 17:24 Now, Abraham was ninety-nine years old,--when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
25 And Ishmael his son was thirteen years old when he was circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin.
26 On this selfsame day, was Abraham circumcised,--and Ishmael his son;

http://www.christianforums.com/t7576320/#post57988913
Paul the Circumciser (Acts 16v3)

NKJV) Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had while still] uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also,

Even the Muslims circumcise themselves because of Ishmael also being circumcised

http://www.christianforums.com/t1378557-3/#post14420072
Circumcision: Quran, Sunnah & Hadith

While you are correct in stating that Muslims follow in the footsteps of Abraham by circumcizing as a sign that we are followers of Abrahams Sunnah.
That does not however mean that we are subject to the laws in the the Hebrew Bible or Christian Bible of today. Because we are only required to follow the Quran and Sunnah of the prophet Muhammad since the other two scriptures have been altered.

Ah I thought they were being circumcised to become Jews. Imagine that is a reason the tax payer is doing this.

 

[Frogster]

While I technically agree with this statement, I disagree with his interpretation of it. "Under the law" does not mean "not keep the law". Under the law means "guilty of violating it". The law only demands perfect obedience. Those who are under Grace were ones who once violated the law, but repented (turned away from sin--transgression of the law). Now, by Grace through Faith, they are able to obey it, not of themselves, but in Christ. It is Christ in them that is able to do it. You can do nothing of yourself. You are helpless. Our works are like filthy rags, but once we are IN Christ, Christ works in us and strengthens us and gives us the power and victory to "overcome". They are not "our" works, they are Christ works working THROUGH us.

Overcoming sin is the main characteristic of God's end-time church according to Revelation 2 and 3. It mentions the word "overcome" or "overcometh" numerous times. "To him that overcometh....will I grant". Etc. etc. Only those who overcome can inherent the kingdom of heaven.

I just wish you guys would see this truth!!

Where is someone in here who will stand up and say "I SEE IT!" And follow through? And say "I agree, we're in this together! Let's work on our defects of character together, and overcome sin--let's help one another!"

WHERE???

Commandment breakers and those who try to attain the law of righteousness by works (of themselves) = Under the Law

Commandment keepers who attain the law of righteousness by Grace through faith alone (in Christ) = Under Grace

under law?

gee,...look how the Spirit is juxtaposed to flesh, AND LAW. lol..flesh and law are in the same box!

you can't separate sin , from flesh and law. And you can't be in the Spirit, and UNDER LAW..look at the simple clear wordage, my dear, dear, brother.


Gal 5;16.16But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do. 18But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

 

[from scratch]

That verse is an interesting one. He received the sign of circumcision.
Do you think that teaches us that those of us (Gentiles) who also receive the righteousness of faith must receive the sign of circumcision; as our father Abraham did?
Or is the circumcision mentioned here a "circumcision of the heart" as mentioned by Paul when he gives his famous "he isn't a Jew who is circumcised of the flesh, but the one circumcised of the heart" speech?
Or are we not to do anything at all and see this as simple a verse stating something that happened to our father Abraham that doesn't mean anything to us?

I guess that really depends on if one really believes and keeps the law. Are you circumcised for this reason? If so what does it mean to anybody? Dose anybody see your circumcision besides a wife. When the law was given public nudity was an everyday occurance.