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Election is a messy issue. But it is my firm opinion that election does not extend to a persons salvation. Election is the means by which God maintains his plan for free will salvation. God is love a loving God would not predestinate people to hell. It makes far more sense to see free will as the catalyst for salvation, as the bible says God is long suffering not willing that any should perish but all should have life.
So then God does not elect men , they elect Him ...
I guess a similar question could be asked, what was the point of Jesus dying, if anyone could go to hell. The fact is some people will go to hell. Just because a person accepts Christ at some point does not mean they can't loose it. Hebrews 6 explains this. But that scripture you provided does make a valid point, the cross of Christ is for all sins, a lifetime of sins. This means any person can repent and be forgiven for any sin. Because the cross is available.
Romans 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Whether we make it or not as a Christian is determined by who we obey, either God leading to life, or unrighteousness (sin) leading to death. It is a bit like this, imagine we are in the ocean, with out a flotation device we will sink and drown. The cross is the flotation device that keeps us alive while we wait for Christ to come rescue us. Sin is like weight we add to our selves. If we constantly add sin to our lives, we get heavy, and it does not matter how good the flotation device is, we will eventually sink and drown. Sin, habitual sin, binds us to blindness (spiritually speaking). If we are a habitual sinner Satan has a right to cause us blindness, eventually if we keep unrepentant sin we will no longer see the cross, or christ, we will fall away. If we are alive (due to the cross being available), we could repent. But if we love our sin more than Christ we will perish.
You say that whether or not we make it or not as Christians is determined by who we obey. I don't agree with that due to saying that means you have to work for your salvation.
does anyone here deny that Jesus called Judas and the other 11 sheep, and sent them as sheep to the Lost sheep?
If so then they all had eternal life. as Jesus said his sheep have.
maybe if we stick to one section a small few verses we can work through it
does anyone here deny that Jesus called Judas and the other 11 sheep, and sent them as sheep to the Lost sheep?
If so then they all had eternal life. as Jesus said his sheep have.
maybe if we stick to one section a small few verses we can work through it
diito.Consider this.
Judas was not saved.
Judas did all that he did before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.
The new birth was not available until Jesus was resurrected.
In other words no one was nor could be saved/born again/born from above (rom 10:9) until after Jesus was raised from the dead.
And Jesus also forgave his fellow Jews who crucified him, as he was on the cross, of that sin.The Catholic Church judged Judas harshly so they could contrast Peter's overcoming of the devil Jesus saw in him once. The tradition of such condemnation of Judas, in other words, was due to an ulterior motive- they sit in Peter's chair.
There really isn't much to suggest that Judas really lost his salvation. His suicide was due to the demons taunting him and being in extreme regret for having betrayed Jesus in the first place.
He took the bag of silver and threw it right back in the Pharisees' face. Was there no forgiveness for him? I doubt Jesus would let someone who truly wanted to repent just be given over to destruction, in fact it just takes away the point of him altogether if he did so.
Judas was once saved and then lost it
Judas once saved, and then lost salvation
a scriptural examination
Hello all, please consider this carefully.
Judas was one of the disciples and apostles of Jesus. A apostle is a "sent one" of God. Judas, belonged to Jesus and was one of his disciples as we read,
" And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." Matthew 10:1
Notice here that Judas was one of Jesus disciples. Jesus called HIS TWELVE DISCIPLES. So Judas was included in the twelve called by Jesus here, and they were HIS , not only eleven disciples and one devil. At this time Judas was not a devil or possesed with the devil. At this time he was saved. For he belonged to Jesus. The clarity here cannot be denied.
Also we read That Jesus gave the twelve (Judas included) here "power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." How can Satan cast out Satan? If Judas was always a devil as some wrongly teach, then how can he have power given to cast out devils, Jesus told us that Satan can not cast out Satan?
So he was also given power to heal all manner of sickness and disease. If he was an unsaved man he could not do this? Remember Jesus called HIS TWELVE disciples to him. He did not call "HIS" ELEVEN and one a devil. And he gave them ( Judas included) power. To say that the eleven were Jesus disciples and Judas was not is wrong and puts a lie in the writers words here and says that Jesus didn't know the difference from who was saved and who was not. Thats ridiculous. Jesus knew his sheep and they were all his sheep as we shall see.
At this point you may say Judas never belonged to the Father, as the other eleven. But Jesus says differently.
"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."
Here we see that the twelve apostles, (spoken of at this time in the context Judas included) once all belonged to the Father, Jesus said "Thine they were" Judas included, and they were given to Jesus. But Judas became lost vs 12 and as we read in Acts 1 he fell by transgression. How can he fall if he was always fallen? No, he was once saved and then fell away. as we read,
"That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." Acts 1:25
Notice here, about Judas that he had part of the ministry and apostleship. An apostle is a sent on of God, and a mighty gifting. Judas was one, and had part of the ministry. Part of that ministry was Matthew 10 as we have been reading. And it says he fell by transgression. Notice again here, he "FELL", so he was not always fallen as some wrongly teach. Lets read on more about that ministry of Judas and the other apostles.
Lets read on more about that ministry of Judas and the other apostles. "
Matthew 10:2-4
"2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot..."
Notice that Judas was called an apostle here. God does not consider a person an apostle of Jesus and give them power to cast out devils and raise the dead, if they are a devil, and not saved.
"5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
Notice again, the TWElVE Jesus sent forth. So all the commands he gives are for the twelve, not just the eleven and one devil excluded. To try and make the text say that Judas was not one of them is classic biblical twisting. I have sen some try to escape the clear consequece of this whole section because they squirm and get frustrated how clearly it rebukes their false eternal security view and their ideas about Judas. Remember this is at the beginning of Judas ministry, not at the end when he was hardening to Jesus and when he was about to betray Jesus.
Matthew 10:6-9
"6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,"
Notice here that Jesus told the twelve apostles ( Judas included to go to the LOST SHEEP. This is significant because Jesus called them all his sheep, and sent them as sheep to the lost sheep, showing that the twelve were his sheep and saved and had eternal life, as he said before his sheep hear his voice and he knows them and gives them eternal life. And Jesus said specific things here about them being his sheep lets read,
Matthew 10"16
"Behold, I send you [all twelve Judas included] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."
This is so clear and a thundering verse to tear down the strongholds of the eternal security doctrine. The weapon of our God are might through him to the tearing down of strongholds. Jesus sent them ( the twelve, Judas included) as sheep, to the lost sheep. Showing that the twelve apostles ( Judas included) were all his sheep. read this again for clarity,
John 10:27,28
"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; "
This is clear, all the twelve heard his voice (Judas included) and all twelve followed him (Judas included) and all twelve were given eternal life (Judas included). How much clearer can it be?
Lets read on in Matthew 10
Matthew 10:12,13
"12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.
13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."
So all the twelve (JUDAS INCLUDED) had the peace of God to give to others, Judas included. And more,
Matthew 10:20
"For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."
the twelve (Judas included) had the Spirit of the father speaking in them when needed.
Matthew 10:25
"25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? [Judas was of Jesus Household as well as the others]
"Notice here that Jesus is referring to himself as their master, and the twelve (Judas included) as part of his household.
The evidence is mounting so clearly it is undeniable. How can this be denied?
Then we also know that Judas was successful as the others for he obtained part of the ministry Acts 1. And even if we do not see very specific verses that show him alone doing all the things Jesus sent them all to do. We know that he was given power to do that and had the peace of God and the Spirit of the Father in him and was a found sheep sent to the lost sheep as the others.
We also read that Judas "betrayed" Jesus Matthew 3:19 and Matthew 26:25 . To betray someone means to once have the trust of that person as the word betray means. And we read a prophecy about Judas that says,
"Psalms 41:9
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."
This is referring to Judas as we read,
"John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.
Judas once had the trust of Jesus, showing he was not a devil always, He was the familiar friend of Jesus.Jesus is not the familiar friend of devils and does not ever trust them. And a devil cannot betray Jesus because the word betray means to have the trust of once and to go against that trust.
we also read in Acts about Judas a quote from Psalms 69,
Acts 1:16-20
"16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."
This is in the Psalms about Judas as we read,
Psalms 69:25-28
25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."
Notice that the same ones spoken of ( udas included as we read in Acts) are "blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Psalm 69:28 Clearly showing that Judas went to the lake of fire and was once in the book of life and with the righteous. This shows that he was once in the book of life and then blotted out.
We see more about this ministry all the twelve had Judas included and the 70 as well. here we read,
Luke 10:1-23
"1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:"
Notice here that this is like Matthew 10 and similar ministry, we read,"the Lord appointed other seventy also". So he sent his sheep the twelve out and seventy others also with them. they were all together and he said to the others also, "I send you forth as lambs among wolves" This is the same thing she said and many other things. But then we read "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." They had their names written in heaven" and so they were all just as sucessful. Jesus turns to his disciples privately and said that they were blessed ( Judas included)
I rather think the apostles were supremely angry at Judas and that is why they wrote about him with such condemnation. Because it wasn't just Jesus he had put in danger, but them as well.
This is partly true (in my opinion), note:
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
Some people who are alive God does not want saved. They can never believe. Not because God has selected them prior to creation for damnation, but rather the person has had pleasure in unrighteousness, and they did not repent.
You are right in saying any one who wants salvation can have it, I may have sinned and moved away from God, I may have even entered a state of unbelief, yet if I can trust in the cross I will have salvation, it is available to me. All the scriptures you quoted are true.
But unfortunately for some, there are people who have lived their lives in such a selfish way that even God does not want them saved. So what does God do? He sends them "strong delusion, that they should believe a lie", why so that they will be dammed.
This should cause us to live our lives in reverence and fear, knowing that we need to live righteously.
So when does this delusion occur, not when dead, but when alive. I am guessing Judas was selected due to the fact he was unrighteous, he saw all the miracles, maybe even worked a few of them, but in the end he was sent "strong delusion". What was his delusion, money, he was a thief. God used his sin against him.
So at any given point in time there will be people who can never be saved, why, God has counted then as unworthy.
Mat 13:27 -29 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Note the parable of the tares, God sows good seed, not one man is chosen for hell, yet an enemy (the devil) causes some to become evil. The question is asked "what do we do with the evil ones?", "should we uproot them? (i.e. send them to hell right now)". Jesus says no. Let them grow together, at the end we will do it. Again I believe this shows men can be alive, and irredeemable.
God (like the master) invites everyone and everyone that goes to the Banquet was invited by God.So then God does not elect men , they elect Him ...
Mat 13:27 -29 So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Note the parable of the tares, God sows good seed, not one man is chosen for hell, yet an enemy (the devil) causes some to become evil. The question is asked "what do we do with the evil ones?", "should we uproot them? (i.e. send them to hell right now)". Jesus says no. Let them grow together, at the end we will do it. Again I believe this shows men can be alive, and irredeemable.
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