Judas was once saved and lost it...

FutureAndAHope · Jul 21, 2015

I believe something different, Jesus called Judas a devil. I believe every man is given a measure of grace if we use it up, we will go to hell. In order for the prophecy in the Old Testament to be fulfilled Jesus needed a tratoir, he needed some one to use. I believe Judas in his life prior to meeting Jesus had already used up his measure of grace, God just choose to use him on the way out. Note the following passage referring to vessels of destruction, God suffers long with them, then uses them for his own will, destruction. How they go out is not important.

Rom 9:21-22 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Could Judas have repented? Maybe? I don't know?

LoveofTruth · Jul 21, 2015

FutureAndAHope said:
I believe something different, Jesus called Judas a devil. I believe every man is given a measure of grace if we use it up, we will go to hell. In order for the prophecy in the Old Testament to be fulfilled Jesus needed a tratoir, he needed some one to use. I believe Judas in his life prior to meeting Jesus had already used up his measure of grace, God just choose to use him on the way out. Note the following passage referring to vessels of destruction, God suffers long with them, then uses them for his own will, destruction. How they go out is not important.

Rom 9:21-22 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Could Judas have repented? Maybe? I don't know?

No according to scripture judas was once a sheep and he belonged to the Father even before he was given to Jesus and he was a familiar friend of Jesus who he once trusted.

And as far as Romans 9 many misunderstand that chapter

Here's a thought to consider

"2 Timothy 2:21 >>
If a man therefore purge himselffrom these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. "

FutureAndAHope · Jul 22, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. "

Yes but the problem for Judas is he did not purge himself of his sins. Due to his sinful nature he was condemned.

2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Judas due to his own choice was chosen as a vessel of destruction. Romans says God uses both the wicked and the righteous for his own purposes. One he blesses, the other he curses. Judas at some point left the truth due to WANTING unrighteousness.

Now we have to ask our selves when did Jesus choose Judas, when he was righteous, or unrighteous. I say not when he was righteous, but rather when he had already sinned to the point he was being sent "strong delusion". Like Romans says God can use the wicked how he wills. Jesus said Judas WAS a devil, he choose him at a point he was considered beyond redemption.

Lets look at it this way, I might out sin God, now God has a choice to make does he send me to hell right now, i.e. kill me off, he could either choose to kill me in my unbelief, or keep me alive in delusion that prevented me from believing. Judas probably never believed.

Then let come forward to the anti-christ, how will he come about. God will choose a sinner at that time and as Romans says "Raise him up" to a position of power. Then he shall display his wrath against him. God does not create a man of sin, he uses a man of sin, to fulfill his word.

adhidarmawijaya · Jul 22, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Judas was once saved and then lost it

Judas once saved, and then lost salvation

a scriptural examination

Hello all, please consider this carefully.

Judas was one of the disciples and apostles of Jesus. A apostle is a "sent one" of God. Judas, belonged to Jesus and was one of his disciples as we read,

" And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." Matthew 10:1

Notice here that Judas was one of Jesus disciples. Jesus called HIS TWELVE DISCIPLES. So Judas was included in the twelve called by Jesus here, and they were HIS , not only eleven disciples and one devil. At this time Judas was not a devil or possesed with the devil. At this time he was saved. For he belonged to Jesus. The clarity here cannot be denied.
Also we read That Jesus gave the twelve (Judas included) here "power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease." How can Satan cast out Satan? If Judas was always a devil as some wrongly teach, then how can he have power given to cast out devils, Jesus told us that Satan can not cast out Satan?
So he was also given power to heal all manner of sickness and disease. If he was an unsaved man he could not do this? Remember Jesus called HIS TWELVE disciples to him. He did not call "HIS" ELEVEN and one a devil. And he gave them ( Judas included) power. To say that the eleven were Jesus disciples and Judas was not is wrong and puts a lie in the writers words here and says that Jesus didn't know the difference from who was saved and who was not. Thats ridiculous. Jesus knew his sheep and they were all his sheep as we shall see.

At this point you may say Judas never belonged to the Father, as the other eleven. But Jesus says differently.

"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word."

Here we see that the twelve apostles, (spoken of at this time in the context Judas included) once all belonged to the Father, Jesus said "Thine they were" Judas included, and they were given to Jesus. But Judas became lost vs 12 and as we read in Acts 1 he fell by transgression. How can he fall if he was always fallen? No, he was once saved and then fell away. as we read,

"That he may take part of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas by transgression fell, that he might go to his own place." Acts 1:25

Notice here, about Judas that he had part of the ministry and apostleship. An apostle is a sent on of God, and a mighty gifting. Judas was one, and had part of the ministry. Part of that ministry was Matthew 10 as we have been reading. And it says he fell by transgression. Notice again here, he "FELL", so he was not always fallen as some wrongly teach. Lets read on more about that ministry of Judas and the other apostles.
Lets read on more about that ministry of Judas and the other apostles. "

Matthew 10:2-4

"2 Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother;
3 Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus;
4 Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot..."

Notice that Judas was called an apostle here. God does not consider a person an apostle of Jesus and give them power to cast out devils and raise the dead, if they are a devil, and not saved.

"5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:

Notice again, the TWElVE Jesus sent forth. So all the commands he gives are for the twelve, not just the eleven and one devil excluded. To try and make the text say that Judas was not one of them is classic biblical twisting. I have sen some try to escape the clear consequece of this whole section because they squirm and get frustrated how clearly it rebukes their false eternal security view and their ideas about Judas. Remember this is at the beginning of Judas ministry, not at the end when he was hardening to Jesus and when he was about to betray Jesus.

Matthew 10:6-9

"6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
8 Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.
9 Provide neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses,"

Notice here that Jesus told the twelve apostles ( Judas included to go to the LOST SHEEP. This is significant because Jesus called them all his sheep, and sent them as sheep to the lost sheep, showing that the twelve were his sheep and saved and had eternal life, as he said before his sheep hear his voice and he knows them and gives them eternal life. And Jesus said specific things here about them being his sheep lets read,

Matthew 10"16

"Behold, I send you [all twelve Judas included] forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves."

This is so clear and a thundering verse to tear down the strongholds of the eternal security doctrine. The weapon of our God are might through him to the tearing down of strongholds. Jesus sent them ( the twelve, Judas included) as sheep, to the lost sheep. Showing that the twelve apostles ( Judas included) were all his sheep. read this again for clarity,

John 10:27,28
"27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
28 And I give unto them eternal life; "

This is clear, all the twelve heard his voice (Judas included) and all twelve followed him (Judas included) and all twelve were given eternal life (Judas included). How much clearer can it be?

Lets read on in Matthew 10

Matthew 10:12,13

"12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."

So all the twelve (JUDAS INCLUDED) had the peace of God to give to others, Judas included. And more,

Matthew 10:20
"For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you."

the twelve (Judas included) had the Spirit of the father speaking in them when needed.

Matthew 10:25
"25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household? [Judas was of Jesus Household as well as the others]

"Notice here that Jesus is referring to himself as their master, and the twelve (Judas included) as part of his household.

The evidence is mounting so clearly it is undeniable. How can this be denied?

Then we also know that Judas was successful as the others for he obtained part of the ministry Acts 1. And even if we do not see very specific verses that show him alone doing all the things Jesus sent them all to do. We know that he was given power to do that and had the peace of God and the Spirit of the Father in him and was a found sheep sent to the lost sheep as the others.

We also read that Judas "betrayed" Jesus Matthew 3:19 and Matthew 26:25 . To betray someone means to once have the trust of that person as the word betray means. And we read a prophecy about Judas that says,

"Psalms 41:9
Yea, mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, which did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me."

This is referring to Judas as we read,

"John 13:18
I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me.

Judas once had the trust of Jesus, showing he was not a devil always, He was the familiar friend of Jesus.Jesus is not the familiar friend of devils and does not ever trust them. And a devil cannot betray Jesus because the word betray means to have the trust of once and to go against that trust.

we also read in Acts about Judas a quote from Psalms 69,

Acts 1:16-20

"16 Men and brethren, this scripture must needs have been fulfilled, which the Holy Ghost by the mouth of David spake before concerning Judas, which was guide to them that took Jesus.
17 For he was numbered with us, and had obtained part of this ministry.
18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels gushed out.
19 And it was known unto all the dwellers at Jerusalem; insomuch as that field is called in their proper tongue, Aceldama, that is to say, The field of blood.
20 For it is written in the book of Psalms, Let his habitation be desolate, and let no man dwell therein: and his bishoprick let another take."

This is in the Psalms about Judas as we read,

Psalms 69:25-28

25 Let their habitation be desolate; and let none dwell in their tents.
26 For they persecute him whom thou hast smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom thou hast wounded.
27 Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into thy righteousness.
28 Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous."

Notice that the same ones spoken of ( udas included as we read in Acts) are "blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." Psalm 69:28 Clearly showing that Judas went to the lake of fire and was once in the book of life and with the righteous. This shows that he was once in the book of life and then blotted out.

We see more about this ministry all the twelve had Judas included and the 70 as well. here we read,

Luke 10:1-23

"1 After these things the Lord appointed other seventy also, and sent them two and two before his face into every city and place, whither he himself would come.
2 Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.
3 Go your ways: behold, I send you forth as lambs among wolves.
4 Carry neither purse, nor scrip, nor shoes: and salute no man by the way.
5 And into whatsoever house ye enter, first say, Peace be to this house.
6 And if the son of peace be there, your peace shall rest upon it: if not, it shall turn to you again.
7 And in the same house remain, eating and drinking such things as they give: for the labourer is worthy of his hire. Go not from house to house.
8 And into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you, eat such things as are set before you:
9 And heal the sick that are therein, and say unto them, The kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
10 But into whatsoever city ye enter, and they receive you not, go your ways out into the streets of the same, and say,
11 Even the very dust of your city, which cleaveth on us, we do wipe off against you: notwithstanding be ye sure of this, that the kingdom of God is come nigh unto you.
12 But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.
13 Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works had been done in Tyre and Sidon, which have been done in you, they had a great while ago repented, sitting in sackcloth and ashes.
14 But it shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the judgment, than for you.
15 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted to heaven, shalt be thrust down to hell.
16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that despiseth you despiseth me; and he that despiseth me despiseth him that sent me.
17 And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name.
18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.
19 Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.
20 Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.
21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
22 All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
23 And he turned him unto his disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see:"

Notice here that this is like Matthew 10 and similar ministry, we read,"the Lord appointed other seventy also". So he sent his sheep the twelve out and seventy others also with them. they were all together and he said to the others also, "I send you forth as lambs among wolves" This is the same thing she said and many other things. But then we read "Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven." They had their names written in heaven" and so they were all just as sucessful. Jesus turns to his disciples privately and said that they were blessed ( Judas included)

At the beginning God had a plan that there should be human in the earth that could glorify Him, these names God wrote in the book of life : two of them were Adam and Eve, it means the others should be created later by placing in the women womb to be born.

Isa43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So there are two kinds of men living in the earth: Born of God and born of flesh ( John1:12-13), sons and daughters of God and sons and daughters of men ( Gen 6), who has ears and who has no ears ( Rev3:6), figurative as Egyptians and figurative as Israelies (exod11:4-7), listed in the book of life before the foundation of the world and not listed in the book of life before the foundation of the world ( Rev13:8).

So Judas was not the one who was born of God, clarified as :John6:70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?.
Indeed Judas was chosen by Jesus himself, but this is not the strange event cause God also placed satan in Eden in order to fulfill His plan.
These verses will tell us further:

John8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

1John3:12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous

Rev13:8 All people living on earth will worship it, except those whose names were written before the creation of the world in the book of the living which belongs to the Lamb that was killed.
( whose names were not written in the book of life before the foundation of the world will worship it )( where do they come from ?).

Judas would never be saved .

God gave His grace to His people in order to change from dead to alive ( corpse to be alive creature), who had once alive would never dead forever, while who are born of flesh will continue their certainty to the lake of fire.

Rev3:4 But a few of you there in Sardis have kept your clothes clean. You will walk with me, clothed in white, because you are worthy to do so.
3:5 Those who win the victory will be clothed like this in white, and I will not remove their names from the book of the living. In the presence of my Father and of his angels I will declare openly that they belong to me.
3:6 "If you have ears, then, listen to what the Spirit says to the churches!

question: will those few in Sardis church being removed their names from the book of living ? (loss their salvation ).

Rick Otto · Jul 22, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
First off this was somewhat of a prophetic word, This he spoke of Judas who should [future tense] betray him

"71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve" John 6:71

Also this was at the end of Jesus ministry three years or so earlier Judas was one of the twelves who had power given and to cast out devils and was sent as a sheep to the lost sheep etc matthew 10

We read in another place,

"And after the sop Satan entered into him. Then said Jesus unto him, That thou doest, do quickly." John 13:27

if at that time Judas was a devil , that was at the end of Jesus ministry and he went away from the trust he once had

Pretty good reply, except it contradicts other scriptures like:
Romans 8: 33: Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
[34] Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
[35] Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
[36] As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
[37] Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
[38] For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
[39] Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Or this one:

Philippians 1:6: Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ.

FutureAndAHope · Jul 22, 2015

adhidarmawijaya said:
At the beginning God had a plan that there should be human in the earth that could glorify Him, these names God wrote in the book of life : two of them were Adam and Eve, it means the others should be created later by placing in the women womb to be born.

Isa43:7 Even every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.

So there are two kinds of men living in the earth: Born of God and born of flesh ( John1:12-13), sons and daughters of God and sons and daughters of men ( Gen 6), who has ears and who has no ears ( Rev3:6), figurative as Egyptians and figurative as Israelies (exod11:4-7), listed in the book of life before the foundation of the world and not listed in the book of life before the foundation of the world ( Rev13:8).

I 100% disagree with what you said. Revelation says:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth, that plan was ordained before creation. Christ was chosen to be slain for us, only in that sense were we selected. Not that we were selected to be in the book before creation, and some were not selected.

x141 · Jul 22, 2015

Then it was impossible for God.

adhidarmawijaya · Jul 22, 2015

FutureAndAHope said:
I 100% disagree with what you said. Revelation says:

Rev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation says that Christ was slain before the foundation of the earth, that plan was ordained before creation. Christ was chosen to be slain for us, only in that sense were we selected. Not that we were selected to be in the book before creation, and some were not selected.

The stressing point is in :"whose names are not written in the book of life", were those names in the book of life written before the foundation of the world ?.
The answer we can see :
Rev17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Of course the lamb slain from the foundation of the world , but the point here is : " the salvation should only by grace ".

Albion · Jul 22, 2015

Rick Otto said:
John6:70: Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

(I don't think He was indulging hyperbole.)

Yes. I think that verse clearly shows that, from the beginning, Christ knew that Judas was not true to him or would not remain so. But he served a purpose. To this extent, he is not to be thought of by us as just another of the Apostles albeit one that experienced a terrible turn in a moment of weakness.

brinny · Jul 22, 2015

FutureAndAHope said:
I believe something different, Jesus called Judas a devil. I believe every man is given a measure of grace if we use it up, we will go to hell. In order for the prophecy in the Old Testament to be fulfilled Jesus needed a tratoir, he needed some one to use. I believe Judas in his life prior to meeting Jesus had already used up his measure of grace, God just choose to use him on the way out. Note the following passage referring to vessels of destruction, God suffers long with them, then uses them for his own will, destruction. How they go out is not important.

Rom 9:21-22 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

Could Judas have repented? Maybe? I don't know?

Exactly. I believe that Judas could have repented, yet he didn't. It didn't even occur to him to GO TO THE ONE who he betrayed and ask His forgiveness. He wouldn't even acknowledge WHO Jesus was even then and bow his knees to Him, and seek forgiveness and grace. He preferred to die cursed.

And he did.

LoveofTruth · Jul 22, 2015

FutureAndAHope said:
Yes but the problem for Judas is he did not purge himself of his sins. Due to his sinful nature he was condemned.

2Th 2:10-12 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Judas due to his own choice was chosen as a vessel of destruction. Romans says God uses both the wicked and the righteous for his own purposes. One he blesses, the other he curses. Judas at some point left the truth due to WANTING unrighteousness.

Now we have to ask our selves when did Jesus choose Judas, when he was righteous, or unrighteous. I say not when he was righteous, but rather when he had already sinned to the point he was being sent "strong delusion". Like Romans says God can use the wicked how he wills. Jesus said Judas WAS a devil, he choose him at a point he was considered beyond redemption.

Lets look at it this way, I might out sin God, now God has a choice to make does he send me to hell right now, i.e. kill me off, he could either choose to kill me in my unbelief, or keep me alive in delusion that prevented me from believing. Judas probably never believed.

Then let come forward to the anti-christ, how will he come about. God will choose a sinner at that time and as Romans says "Raise him up" to a position of power. Then he shall display his wrath against him. God does not create a man of sin, he uses a man of sin, to fulfill his word.

Hello again,

I used this verse to counter the wrong interpretations some make about God making men vessels of honour and dishonour

"2 Timothy 2:21 >>
If a man therefore purge himselffrom these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. ""

If a man purge himself he shall be a vessel of Honour and if he does not do this he shall be a vessel of dishonour. So God sees how men walk in faith or unbelief. and he has set the parameters of where they will be. Who can reply to God and say why did you make us this way?, the Jews may have said why did you make us this way, we want to try and keep the law and be accepted But God did not cjoose that way for salvation he chose by grace through faith in the gospel (Ephesians 2:8 and 1 Cor 15:1-5)

anyway back to Judas

You ask "when did Jesus choose Judas, when he was righteous, or unrighteous"

First of all i find that men try all sorts of fancy twisting and inventions and just make things up to avoid the clear and simple rebuke their their false eternal insecurity doctrine or OSAS. They will just make things up and where they see a clear scripture that shatters the view they try hard to get around it.

Jesus said that Judas and the other 11 were saved and belonged to the father even before he was given to Jesus John 17:6 "thine they were". Also we see that Judas was one of the disciples of Jesus and they were all HIS Matthew 12, Jesus ordained Judas and made him an apostle and Jesus called him a sheep and sent him to the lost sheep. Jesus gave him power to cast out devils and Satan cannot cast out Satan. He became a devil later near the end of Jesus ministry as we read in the scriptures. He was once a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted. It is so clear and obvious to the unbiased reader.

also, you say "I might out sin God," .No this is not scriptural. though your sins be lke scarlet they shall be whiter than snow. and John says

"9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

and so ALL unrighteousness can be forgiven, no matter how much. Your view their is a human invention not scriptural.

brinny · Jul 22, 2015

Albion said:
Yes. I think that verse clearly shows that, from the beginning, Christ knew that Judas was not true to him or would not remain so. But he served a purpose. To this extent, he is not to be thought of by us as just another of the Apostles albeit one that experienced a terrible turn in a moment of weakness.

Exactly. Jesus knew ALL of this from the gitgo, that Judas, even after being with Jesus all that time, would betray him. He knew Judas was treacherous and would never acknowledge Him for Who He was and would never ever come to the saving knowledge of Jesus Christ and repent.

And he didn't. He chose to die rather than come to Jesus.

LoveofTruth · Jul 22, 2015

Albion said:
Yes. I think that verse clearly shows that, from the beginning, Christ knew that Judas was not true to him or would not remain so. But he served a purpose. To this extent, he is not to be thought of by us as just another of the Apostles albeit one that experienced a terrible turn in a moment of weakness.

No at the beginning and even way before he even met Jesus Judas was saved and belonged to the father as all the 11 did. Jesus said in John 17:6 speaking of the 12, "thine they were, and thou gavest them to me". Also we know from Matthew 10, (at the beginning of Judas ministry) that Jesus called HIS 12 disciples to hi, not his 11 and 1 devil. I know the facts of that trouble some and this simple section of scripture shatters all Calvinism and the OSAS doctrine, but let all things shake and fall to the ground that are not true. Also Judas was an apostle ( a sent one of God, God makes men apostles) He was called a sheep by Jesus sent to the lost sheep, showing that he was saved not lost. he was a familiar friend of Jesus in whom he once trusted and he had the Spirit of the father speaking in him when needed, he had power given to cast out devils, and we know that jesus said Satan cannot cast out Satan. Judas had the peace of God to give to others and he was of jesus household he was written in the book of life once and WRITTEN WITH THE RIGHTEOUS (not the unrighteous) he FELL by transgression (and person cannot fall if they are already fallen). He obtained part of the ministry and was just as effective as the others, to obtain part of the ministry was to have the power given by Jesus for such a work.

The facts far out weight the strained and twisted arguments the Calvinist and OSAS people make. At least to the unbiased reader.

Wordkeeper · Jul 22, 2015

John 6:70Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"

The possible understanding of this verse is:

1 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, yet one of you is a devil?" Implying that the choice was not effective, that that choice had no power to affect how Jesus could not lose that sheep.

2 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Implying that he had erred in his choice.

3 Jesus answered them, "Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?" Implying that Judas was chosen to betray Christ (the understanding of the Reformed Church, as it supports double predestination).

To reach a coherent understanding of the text we have to study the context, form a few views and decide which is the most suitable.

As I understand it, the first is the most probable, and a warning not to take for granted God's choice, sanction.

Sarah was informed that Abraham would be a father. Knowing that this had God's sanction, approval, she felt that anything done in this regard would turn out well. She stepped out pre emptively by trying to make Abraham a father by forcing him to sleep with Hagar.

Israel was chosen and viewed that choice as an entitlement. She knew God would deliver the Canaanites into her hands and she acted pre emptively, stepping out to battle the enemy when God had not commanded it.

Jesus knew that God would protect Him. But He would not jump from a high building to flaunt this promise. He called it putting God to the test, viewing it as checking to see if God's word was true.

In our passage under discussion Jesus was telling the disciples not to view their selection as entitlement, as a reason to be careless.

Why then did Jesus choose Judas? Because Judas believed He was the Messiah, which was creditable, other Jews having rejected Him.

Israel believed God and gave up depending on Egypt and followed Him into a desolate wilderness. The point is that she learned more about God's requirements and began to renege on her oath to follow God through all circumstances.

That's the same situation Christians find themselves in when they realise God expects more from them, at least in a church that teaches them all of the counsel of God, unlike churches that teach OSAS.

Why do churches teach OSAS? It's a reaction to the RCC doctrine of salvation by works, the works record obtainable by penance or purchase.

Get this straight.

Salvation is by the assessment of the works record done whilst in this life, but the record is not met by penance or purchase.

It is by the Holy Spirit.

In throwing out salvation according to the assessment of the record obtained through sale of indulgences, the reformed church replaced it with salvation by faith, mental assent. Even here they are not clear what the cognitive acceptance is of: the deity of Christ, the truth of the resurrection, dependence on Christ, etc.

A view supported by one verse, translating belief as mental assent, when it is probably translated as loyalty, faithfulNESS, supportedby a mass of other texts.

Tellastory · Jul 22, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Judas once saved, and then lost salvation

Judas Iscariot & the other disciples were not saved in Matthew 10th chapter when Jesus had given them the temporary indwelling of the Holy Spirit in doing ministry unto Israel.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The promise of the permanant indwelling Holy Ghost was to be given when Jesus was no longer with them but with the Father in Heaven as testified in John 14th chapter.

Look at the commandments for receiving the promise.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.....15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.....20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.....25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So the commandments repeated over and over again to receive the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost is to believe in Him. This ties in with:

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So the disciples were not saved yet until the day of Pentecost when Jesus was no longer with them in order for them to receive that special promise given to His disciples by Jesus.

So Judas was never saved, but he was one of the chosen twelve that was lost as prophesied.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Once again for clarity sake; the disciples were not born again until Pentecost as Jesus testified when the born again expereince will take place.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So when the Son of man which is in Heaven after His crucifixion, is when believers are born again to be saved.

Judas Iscariot was never a believer in spite of being with Him, but the point is moot because the rest of His disciples were not born again and thus not saved until Pentecost.

LoveofTruth · Jul 22, 2015

adhidarmawijaya said:
The stressing point is in :"whose names are not written in the book of life", were those names in the book of life written before the foundation of the world ?.
The answer we can see :
Rev17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Of course the lamb slain from the foundation of the world , but the point here is : " the salvation should only by grace ".

Judas was written in the book of life and the ones in that book were only the righteous, as scripture says, he was blotted out of the book of life "and bot written with the righteous". This corrects the mistake that unrighteous people are in there. The expression the lamb slain from the foundation of the world refers to the first sin offering by Abel, I believe and the gospel was shown in type and God had the plan from the foundation of the world. The other words about those who were not written in the Lambs book of life, shows that the unbelievers were not in that book simply, and that book was set in motion as to the plan of salvation, which all must come into or be lost. They were lost, whether they had been blotted out of it or not, it was set in motion and the plan was from the beginning. God has had this plan for a long time since the foundation of the world. This is also like predestination, God predestined the "PLAN of Salvation " for all those he foreknew who would repent and believe. The plan was to be formed to the image of his son, that is where they would end up and Gods plan for them. This would be their final destination if they abide in him. God has predestined that all those who believe in him and continue in the faith until the end, shall be conformed to the image of His Son.

Tellastory said:
Judas Iscariot & the other disciples were not saved in Matthew 10th chapter when Jesus had given them the temporary indwelling of the Holy Spirit in doing ministry unto Israel.

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

The promise of the permanant indwelling Holy Ghost was to be given when Jesus was no longer with them but with the Father in Heaven as testified in John 14th chapter.

Look at the commandments for receiving the promise.

John 14:1Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 4 And whither I go ye know, and the way ye know. 5 Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; and how can we know the way? 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.....10 Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.....15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. 16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; 17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.....20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.....25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

So the commandments repeated over and over again to receive the promise of the forever indwelling Holy Ghost is to believe in Him. This ties in with:

John 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. 39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

So the disciples were not saved yet until the day of Pentecost when Jesus was no longer with them in order for them to receive that special promise given to His disciples by Jesus.

So Judas was never saved, but he was one of the chosen twelve that was lost as prophesied.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

John 6:62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? 63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. 64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. 66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71 He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Once again for clarity sake; the disciples were not born again until Pentecost as Jesus testified when the born again expereince will take place.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things? 13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: 15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

So when the Son of man which is in Heaven after His crucifixion, is when believers are born again to be saved.

Judas Iscariot was never a believer in spite of being with Him, but the point is moot because the rest of His disciples were not born again and thus not saved until Pentecost.

I disagree strongly here . All OT saints were saved and so were the apostles before the cross ( but not without the cross) .

The words the Holy Ghost was not yet given. Refer to the baptism with the Holy Ghost . This is different than all men having the Spirit of Christ or the Spirit of the Farher . Jesus said it was the Spirit of the Father ( not the Holy Ghost ) that would speak in them. This is said in Matthew 10 .

If any man have not the Spirit of Christ he is none of His. Abraham had the same Spirit of Vhristcas every believer Gakatians 3

Also Judas was a sheep sent to the list sheep showing clearly that he had eternal life and was saved

rnmomof7 · Jul 22, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Judas was once saved and then lost it

Judas was never saved.. He was like so many that come to church ...he may have appeared to be ... But there are many wolves in sheep clothing

He was chosen by God to betrayed Jesus

John 6:70Jesus replied to them, "Didn't I choose you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is the Devil!"

71He was referring to Judas, Simon Iscariot's son, one of the Twelve, because he was going to betray Him.

4WD · Jul 22, 2015

Optimax said:
Consider this.

Judas was not saved.

Judas did all that he did before the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus.

The new birth was not available until Jesus was resurrected.

In other words no one was nor could be saved/born again/born from above (rom 10:9) until after Jesus was raised from the dead.

No one under the old covenant was born again, so then your opinion is that no one under the old covenant was saved? Interesting.

LoveofTruth · Jul 22, 2015

Not true Jesus called Judas a sheep sent to the LOST sheep. And Jesus sheep hear his voice and he gives unto them eternal life. Judas was once in the book of life etc. There is no escaping the clear verses

rnmomof7 · Jul 22, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
Not true Jesus called Judas a sheep sent to the LOST sheep. And Jesus sheep hear his voice and he gives unto them eternal life. Judas was once in the book of life etc. There is no escaping the clear verses

Could I have that direct quote in context?

Judas was once saved and lost it...

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