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Josephus explains the fulfillment of "abomination of desolation"

Discussion in 'Eschatology - Endtimes & Prophecy Forum' started by BABerean2, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. BABerean2

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    Flavius Josephus was born in 37 AD.

    He was a commander of the Jewish forces that fought against the Romans during the war of 70 AD.

    His history of the Jews is considered one of the greatest works available to modern scholars.

    Within his writings we have his understanding of the fulfillment of prophecies made by Daniel.

    According to Josephus, it was the understanding of the Jews of his time that the prophecies Daniel had made about the "abomination of desolation" by the "little horn", were fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes 408 years after Daniel had made the prediction. Based on John 10:22, we know that the Jews of Jesus time celebrated the rededication of the temple which occurred about 3 years after the desecration of the temple by Antiochus during 167 BC. This celebration is known today as Hanukkah and is still celebrated by many modern Jews.

    Tremendous confusion has been produced by modern Christians who refuse to acknowledge the fulfillment of Daniel's prophecy 408 years after it was made.
    This is being done to promote a modern system of Bible interpretation.



    The following is from Antiquities of the Jews, by Flavius Josephus, Book 10, Chapter 11.

    (Bolding and underlining by me)


    "7. When therefore those that had intended thus to destroy Daniel by treachery were themselves destroyed, king Darius sent [letters] over all the country, and praised that God whom Daniel worshipped, and said that he was the only true God, and had all power. He had also Daniel in very great esteem, and made him the principal of his friends. Now when Daniel was become so illustrious and famous, on account of the opinion men had that he was beloved of God, he built a tower at Ecbatana, in Media: it was a most elegant building, and wonderfully made, and it is still remaining, and preserved to this day; and to such as see it, it appears to have been lately built, and to have been no older than that very day when any one looks upon it, it is so fresh (27) flourishing, and beautiful, and no way grown old in so long time; for buildings suffer the same as men do, they grow old as well as they, and by numbers of years their strength is dissolved, and their beauty withered. Now they bury the kings of Media, of Persia, and Parthia in this tower to this day, and he who was entrusted with the care of it was a Jewish priest; which thing is also observed to this day. But it is fit to give an account of what this man did, which is most admirable to hear, for he was so happy as to have strange revelations made to him, and those as to one of the greatest of the prophets, insomuch, that while he was alive he had the esteem and applause both of the kings and of the multitude; and now he is dead, he retains a remembrance that will never fail, for the several books that he wrote and left behind him are still read by us till this time; and from them we believe that Daniel conversed with God; for he did not only prophesy of future events, as did the other prophets, but he also determined the time of their accomplishment. And while prophets used to foretell misfortunes, and on that account were disagreeable both to the kings and to the multitude, Daniel was to them a prophet of good things, and this to such a degree, that by the agreeable nature of his predictions, he procured the goodwill of all men; and by the accomplishment of them, he procured the belief of their truth, and the opinion of [a sort of] divinity for himself, among the multitude. He also wrote and left behind him what made manifest the accuracy and undeniable veracity of his predictions; for he saith, that when he was in Susa, the metropolis of Persia, and went out into the field with his companions, there was, on the sudden, a motion and concussion of the earth, and that he was left alone by himself, his friends fleeing away from him, and that he was disturbed, and fell on his face, and on his two hands, and that a certain person touched him, and, at the same time, bid him rise, and see what would befall his countrymen after many generations. He also related, that when he stood up, he was shown a great rain, with many horns growing out of his head, and that the last was higher than the rest: that after this he looked to the west, and saw a he-goat carried through the air from that quarter; that he rushed upon the ram with violence, and smote him twice with his horns, and overthrew him to the ground, and trampled upon him: that afterward he saw a very great horn growing out of the head of the he-goat, and that when it was broken off, four horns grew up that were exposed to each of the four winds, and he wrote that out of them arose another lesser horn, which, as he said, waxed great; and that God showed to him that it should fight against his nation, and take their city by force, and bring the temple worship to confusion, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for one thousand two hundred and ninety-six days. Daniel wrote that he saw these visions in the Plain of Susa; and he hath informed us that God interpreted the appearance of this vision after the following manner: He said that the ram signified the kingdoms of the Medes and Persians, and the horns those kings that were to reign in them; and that the last horn signified the last king, and that he should exceed all the kings in riches and glory: that the he-goat signified that one should come and reign from the Greeks, who should twice fight with the Persian, and overcome him in battle, and should receive his entire dominion: that by the great horn which sprang out of the forehead of the he-goat was meant the first king; and that the springing up of four horns upon its falling off, and the conversion of every one of them to the four quarters of the earth, signified the successors that should arise after the death of the first king, and the partition of the kingdom among them, and that they should be neither his children, nor of his kindred, that should reign over the habitable earth for many years; and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away their political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years' time. And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them. All these things did this man leave in writing, as God had showed them to him, insomuch that such as read his prophecies, and see how they have been fulfilled, would wonder at the honor wherewith God honored Daniel; and may thence discover how the Epicureans are in an error, who cast Providence out of human life, and do not believe that God takes care of the affairs of the world, nor that the universe is governed and continued in being by that blessed and immortal nature, but say that the world is carried along of its own accord, without a ruler and a curator; which, were it destitute of a guide to conduct it, as they imagine, it would be like ships without pilots, which we see drowned by the winds, or like chariots without drivers, which are overturned; so would the world be dashed to pieces by its being carried without a Providence, and so perish, and come to nought. So that, by the forementioned predictions of Daniel, those men seem to me very much to err from the truth, who determine that God exercises no providence over human affairs; for if that were the case, that the world went on by mechanical necessity, we should not see that all things would come to pass according to his prophecy. Now as to myself, I have so described these matters as I have found them and read them; but if any one is inclined to another opinion about them, let him enjoy his different sentiments without any blame from me.
    ENDNOTES
    (21) These forty-three years for the duration of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar are, as I have just now observed, the very same number in Ptolemy's canon. Moses Chorenensis does also confirm this captivity of the Jews under Nebuchadnezzar, and adds, what is very remarkable, that sale of those Jews that were carried by him into captivity got away into Armenia, and raised the great family of the Bagratide there.
    (22) These twenty-one years here ascribed to one named Naboulassar, in the first book against Apion, or to Nabopollassar, the father of the great Nebuchadnezzar, are also the very same with those given him in Ptolemy's canon. And note here, that what Dr. Prideaux says, at the year, that Nebuchadnezzar must have been a common name of other kings of Babylon, besides the great Nebuchadnezzar himself is a groundless mistake of some modern chronologers rely, and destitute of all proper original authority.
    (23) These fifteen days for finishing such vast buildings at Babylon, in Josephus's copy of Berosus, would seem too absurd to be supposed to be the true number, were it not for the same testimony extant also in the first book against Apion, sect. 19, with the same number. It thence indeed appears that Josephus's copy of Berosus had this small number, but that it is the true number I still doubt. Josephus assures us, that the walls of so much a smaller city as Jerusalem were two years and four months in building by Nehemiah, who yet hastened the work all he could, Antiq. B. XI. ch. 5. sect. 8. I should think one hundred and fifteen days, or a year and fifteen days, much more proportionable to so great a work.
    (24) It is here remarkable that Josephus, without the knowledge of Ptolemy's canon, should call the same king whom he himself here (Bar. i. 11, and Dan_5:1-2, Dan_5:9, Dan_5:12, Dan_5:22, Dan_5:29-30) styles Beltazar, or Belshazzar, from the Babylonian god Bel, Naboandelus also; and in the first book against Apion, sect. 19, vol. iii., from the same citation out of Berosus, Nabonnedon, from the Babylonian god Nabo or Nebo. This last is not remote from the original pronunciation itself in Ptolemy's canon, Nabonadius; for both the place of this king in that canon, as the last of the Assyrian or Babylonian kings, and the number of years of his reign, seventeen, the same in both demonstrate that it is one and the same king that is meant by them all. It is also worth noting, that Josephus knew that Darius, the partner of Cyrus, was the son of Astyages, and was called by another name among the Greeks, though it does not appear he knew what that name was, as having never seen the best history of this period, which is Xenophon's. But then what Josephus's present copies say presently, sect. 4, that it was only within no long time after the hand-writing on the wall that Baltasar was slain, does not so well agree with our copies of Daniel, which say it was the same night, Dan_5:30.
    (25) This grandmother, or mother of Baltasar, the queen dowager of Babylon, (for she is distinguished from his queen, Dan_5:10, Dan_5:13,) seems to have been the famous Nitocris, who fortified Babylon against the Medes and Persians, and, in all probability governed under Baltasar, who seems to be a weak and effeminate prince.
    (26) It is no way improbable that Daniel's enemies might suggest this reason to the king why the lions did not meddle with him and that they might suspect the king's kindness to Daniel had procured these lions to be so filled beforehand, and that thence it was that he encouraged Daniel to submit to this experiment, in hopes of coming off safe; and that this was the true reason of making so terrible an experiment upon those his enemies, and all their families, Dan_6:21, though our other copies do not directly take notice of it
    (27) What Josephus here says, that the stones of the sepulchers of the kings of Persia at this tower, or those perhaps of the same sort that are now commonly called the ruins of Persepolis, continued so entire and unaltered in his days, as if they were lately put there, "I (says Reland) here can show to be true, as to those stones of the Persian mansoleum, which Com. Brunius brake off and gave me." He ascribed this to the hardness of the stones, which scarcely yields to iron tools, and proves frequently too hard for cutting by the chisel, but oftentimes breaks it to pieces. "
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  2. BABerean2

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    From Antiquities of the Jews by Flavius Josephus, Book 12, Chapter 7

    (Bolding and underlining by me)

    "CHAPTER 7
    HOW JUDAS OVERTHREW THE FORCES OF APOLLONIUS AND SERON AND KILLED THE GENERALS OF THEIR ARMIES THEMSELVES; AND HOW WHEN, A LITTLE WHILE AFTERWARDS LYSIAS AND GORGIAS WERE BEATEN HE WENT UP TO JERUSALEM AND PURIFIED THE TEMPLE.
    1. WHEN Apollonius, the general of the Samaritan forces, heard this, he took his army, and made haste to go against Judas, who met him, and joined battle with him, and beat him, and slew many of his men, and among them Apollonius himself, their general, whose sword being that which he happened then to wear, he seized upon, and kept for himself; but he wounded more than he slew, and took a great deal of prey from the enemy's camp, and went his way. But when Seron, who was general of the army of Celesyria, heard that many had joined themselves to Judas, and that he had about him an army sufficient for fighting, and for making war, he determined to make an expedition against him, as thinking it became him to endeavor to punish those that transgressed the king's injunctions. He then got together an army, as large as he was able, and joined to it the runagate and wicked Jews, and came against Judas. He came as far as Bethhoron, a village of Judea, and there pitched his camp; upon which Judas met him; and when he intended to give him battle, he saw that his soldiers were backward to fight, because their number was small, and because they wanted food, for they were fasting, he encouraged them, and said to them, that victory and conquest of enemies are not derived from the multitude in armies, but in the exercise of piety towards God; and that they had the plainest instances in their forefathers, who, by their righteousness, exerting themselves on behalf of their own laws, and their own children, had frequently conquered many ten thousands, - for innocence is the strongest army. By this speech he induced his men to contenm the multitude of the enemy, and to fall upon Seron. And upon joining battle with him, he beat the Syrians; and when their general fell among the rest, they all ran away with speed, as thinking that to be their best way of escaping. So he pursued them unto the plain, and slew about eight hundred of the enemy; but the rest escaped to the region which lay near to the sea.
    2. When king Antiochus heard of these things, he was very angry at what had happened; so he got together all his own army, with many mercenaries, whom he had hired from the islands, and took them with him, and prepared to break into Judea about the beginning of the spring. But when, upon his mustering his soldiers, he perceived that his treasures were deficient, and there was a want of money in them, for all the taxes were not paid, by reason of the seditions there had been among the nations he having been so magnanimous and so liberal, that what he had was not sufficient for him, he therefore resolved first to go into Persia, and collect the taxes of that country. Hereupon he left one whose name was Lysias, who was in great repute with him governor of the kingdom, as far as the bounds of Egypt, and of the Lower Asia, and reaching from the river Euphrates, and committed to him a certain part of his forces, and of his elephants, and charged him to bring up his son Antiochus with all possible care, until he came back; and that he should conquer Judea, and take its inhabitants for slaves, and utterly destroy Jerusalem, and abolish the whole nation. And when king Antiochus had given these things in charge to Lysias, he went into Persia; and in the hundred and forty-seventh year he passed over Euphrates, and went to the superior provinces.
    3. Upon this Lysias chose Ptolemy, the son of Dorymenes, and Nicanor, and Gorgias, very potent men among the king's friends, and delivered to them forty thousand foot soldiers, and seven thousand horsemen, and sent them against Judea, who came as far as the city Emmaus, and pitched their camp in the plain country. There came also to them auxiliaries out of Syria, and the country round about; as also many of the runagate Jews. And besides these came some merchants to buy those that should be carried captives, (having bonds with them to bind those that should be made prisoners,) with that silver and gold which they were to pay for their price. And when Judas saw their camp, and how numerous their enemies were, he persuaded his own soldiers to be of good courage, and exhorted them to place their hopes of victory in God, and to make supplication to him, according to the custom of their country, clothed in sackcloth; and to show what was their usual habit of supplication in the greatest dangers, and thereby to prevail with God to grant you the victory over your enemies. So he set them in their ancient order of battle used by their forefathers, under their captains of thousands, and other officers, and dismissed such as were newly married, as well as those that had newly gained possessions, that they might not fight in a cowardly manner, out of an inordinate love of life, in order to enjoy those blessings. When he had thus disposed his soldiers, he encouraged them to fight by the following speech, which he made to them: "O my fellow soldiers, no other time remains more opportune than the present for courage and contempt of dangers; for if you now fight manfully, you may recover your liberty, which, as it is a thing of itself agreeable to all men, so it proves to be to us much more desirable, by its affording us the liberty of worshipping God. Since therefore you are in such circumstances at present, you must either recover that liberty, and so regain a happy and blessed way of living, which is that according to our laws, and the customs of our country, or to submit to the most opprobrious sufferings; nor will any seed of your nation remain if you be beat in this battle. Fight therefore manfully; and suppose that you must die, though you do not fight; but believe, that besides such glorious rewards as those of the liberty of your country, of your laws, of your religion, you shall then obtain everlasting glory. Prepare yourselves, therefore, and put yourselves into such an agreeable posture, that you may be ready to fight with the enemy as soon as it is day tomorrow morning."
    4. And this was the speech which Judas made to encourage them. But when the enemy sent Gorgias, with five thousand foot and one thousand horse, that he might fall upon Judas by night, and had for that purpose certain of the runagate Jews as guides, the son of Mattathias perceived it, and resolved to fall upon those enemies that were in their camp, now their forces were divided. When they had therefore supped in good time, and had left many fires in their camp, he marched all night to those enemies that were at Emmaus. So that when Gorgias found no enemy in their camp, but suspected that they were retired, and had hidden themselves among the mountains, he resolved to go and seek them wheresoever they were. But about break of day Judas appeared to those enemies that were at Emmaus, with only three thousand men, and those ill armed, by reason of their poverty; and when he saw the enemy very well and skillfully fortified in their camp, he encouraged the Jews, and told them that they ought to fight, though it were with their naked bodies, for that God had sometimes of old given such men strength, and that against such as were more in number, and were armed also, out of regard to their great courage. So he commanded the trumpeters to sound for the battle; and by thus falling upon the enemies when they did not expect it, and thereby astonishing and disturbing their minds, he slew many of those that resisted him, and went on pursuing the rest as far as Gadara, and the plains of Idumea, and Ashdod, and Jamnia; and of these there fell about three thousand. Yet did Judas exhort his soldiers not to be too desirous of the spoils, for that still they must have a contest and battle with Gorgias, and the forces that were with him; but that when they had once overcome them, then they might securely plunder the camp, because they were the only enemies remaining, and they expected no others. And just as he was speaking to his soldiers, Gorgias's men looked down into that army which they left in their camp, and saw that it was overthrown, and the camp burnt; for the smoke that arose from it showed them, even when they were a great way off, what had happened. When therefore those that were with Gorgias understood that things were in this posture, and perceived that those that were with Judas were ready to fight them, they also were affrighted, and put to flight; but then Judas, as though he had already beaten Gorgias's soldiers without fighting, returned and seized on the spoils. He took a great quantity of gold, and silver, and purple, and blue, and then returned home with joy, and singing hymns to God for their good success; for this victory greatly contributed to the recovery of their liberty.
    5. Hereupon Lysias was confounded at the defeat of the army which he had sent, and the next year he got together sixty thousand chosen men. He also took five thousand horsemen, and fell upon Judea; and he went up to the hill country of Bethsur, a village of Judea, and pitched his camp there, where Judas met him with ten thousand men; and when he saw the great number of his enemies, he prayed to God that he would assist him, and joined battle with the first of the enemy that appeared, and beat them, and slew about five thousand of them, and thereby became terrible to the rest of them. Nay, indeed, Lysias observing the great spirit of the Jews, how they were prepared to die rather than lose their liberty, and being afraid of their desperate way of fighting, as if it were real strength, he took the rest of the army back with him, and returned to Antioch, where he listed foreigners into the service, and prepared to fall upon Judea with a greater army.
    6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].
    7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "

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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
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  3. ByTheSpirit

    ByTheSpirit Pray always!!

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    Good stuff
     
  4. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Not my faulty.

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    So, it was fulfilled prior to the time of Jesus even though Jesus talked about it as a future event in Matthew 24:15?
     
  5. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    From the OP....highlighted by me.
    And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them.

    Two different enemies and wars. Matthew 24 is about the Romans in 70 AD.
     
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  6. BABerean2

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    Matthew's Gospel was addressed to a Jewish audience, who would have understood that Christ was referring to the events of 167 BC, because they celebrated Hanukkah every year (John 10:22). He was saying that something similar would happen during 70 AD.
    Luke's Gospel was addressed to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.



    Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
    Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 



    Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 
    Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 
    Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 
    Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 
    Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 
    (Most Bible scholars agree that the first part of this verse occurred during 70 AD.)

    .
     
    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  7. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Not my faulty.

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    So, what you are insinuating is that there were multiple fulfillments, Antiochus Epiphanes and the Roman destruction of 70AD.

    Ok. Fine. Since mulitple fulfillments are in scope, how do you know there isn't another one coming?
     
  8. BABerean2

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    Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:


    Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.





    Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)



    Luk 21:5  Then, as some spoke of the temple, how it was adorned with beautiful stones and donations, He said, 

    Luk 21:6  "These things which you see—the days will come in which not one stone shall be left upon another that shall not be thrown down." 

    (Mat 24:2  And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down." )





    Luk 21:7  So they asked Him, saying, "Teacher, but when will these things be? And what sign will there be when these things are about to take place?" 

    (Mat 24:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?")

    ( Mar 13:3  Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives opposite the temple, Peter, James, John, and Andrew asked Him privately, 

    Mar 13:4  "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign when all these things will be fulfilled?") 





    Luk 21:8  And He said: "Take heed that you not be deceived. For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am He,' and, 'The time has drawn near.' Therefore do not go after them. 

    (Mat 24:5  For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. )



    Luk 21:9  But when you hear of wars and commotions, do not be terrified; for these things must come to pass first, but the end will not come immediately."

    (Mat 24:6  And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.) 



    Jesus Foretells Wars and Persecution



    Luk 21:10  Then He said to them, "Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



    Luk 21:11  And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven. 

    (Mat 24:7  For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. And there will be famines, pestilences, and earthquakes in various places. )



    Luk 21:12  But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:9  "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.) (Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)



    Luk 21:13  But it will turn out for you as an occasion for testimony. 

    Luk 21:14  Therefore settle it in your hearts not to meditate beforehand on what you will answer; 

    Luk 21:15  for I will give you a mouth and wisdom which all your adversaries will not be able to contradict or resist. 

    Luk 21:16  You will be betrayed even by parents and brothers, relatives and friends; and they will put some of you to death. 

    Luk 21:17  And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. 

    (Mat 24:10  And then many will be offended, will betray one another, and will hate one another. )



    Luk 21:18  But not a hair of your head shall be lost. 

    Luk 21:19  By your patience possess your souls. 

    (Mat 24:13  But he who endures to the end shall be saved.) 



    Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem



    Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 

    (Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 



    Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

    (Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.) 



    Luk 21:22  For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 

    Luk 21:23  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people. 

    (Mat 24:19  But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! )



    Luk 21:24  And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations. And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. 



    The Coming of the Son of Man



    Luk 21:25  "And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, the sea and the waves roaring; 

    (Mat 24:29  "Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.) 



    Luk 21:26  men's hearts failing them from fear and the expectation of those things which are coming on the earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 

    Luk 21:27  Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 

    (Mat 24:30  Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.) 



    Luk 21:28  Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near." 

    (Mat 24:33  So you also, when you see all these things, know that it is near—at the doors!)


    What happens in the timeline after Luke 21:24?

    Starting in Luke 21:25 we find the future Second Coming of Christ.

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  9. SeventyOne

    SeventyOne Not my faulty.

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    Those passages don't just apply to the destruction of the Temple, but also to the end of the age. There is another destruction of Jerusalem coming. Even the verses in these passages has the abomination of desolation as an event followed by the second return of Christ, a still future event.

    So again, if you are already professing multiple fulfillments, how do you know there isn't another one coming? Even the passages you cited seem to say such a thing is still to take place.
     
  10. Hank77

    Hank77 Well-Known Member Supporter

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    They are not multiply fulfillings of one prophecy. Daniel gives a prophecy about the times of Antichus in Chapter 11 and a separate prophecy of the 70 weeks in chapter 9.

    This article may be helpful to you.
    Daniel's Prophecy of Antiochus Epiphanes

    Adam Clarkes' Commentary gives some really interesting background about Daniel the man.
    Daniel 1 Clarke's Commentary
     
  11. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    It is often very difficult for those promoting modern Dispensational Theology to come to grips with the reality found in scripture.

    Based on the clear timeline revealed by Luke's Gospel, we are now in the period of time between the first part of Luke 21:24 and Luke 21:25.

    In the text it is referred to as "the times of the Gentiles".
    Based on Luke 21:24-27, "the times of the Gentiles" ends at the Second Coming of Christ.
    This does cause problems for the Dispensationalists use of the same term in Romans chapter 11, which they often claim ends at the pretrib removal of the Church.


    The New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, is found fulfilled by Christ in Hebrews 8:6-13, and is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:22-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8.
    The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13.
    The New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.


    Therefore, the New Covenant Church does not end before the Second Coming of Christ.

    I once shared a book titled "En Route to Global Occupation" with one of my former pastors. Christian author Gary Kah had seen evidence for the push toward World Government while working in state government. The book was a result of his research into the globalist plan.

    Several weeks after I let my pastor borrow the book he preached a sermon in which he said that we do not need to worry about global government, because the Church will be removed from the planet before it occurs.

    I met with my pastor in his office during the following week to discuss the issue. He talked about the Old Testament prophets not being able to see over the peaks and into the valleys, etc. He sent me home with two books on eschatology written by Tim LaHaye. That meeting was the start of my research to find out how the doctrine of modern Dispensational Theology has spread like a virus through the modern Church.

    Many of those sitting in the pews of Calvary Chapel churches have never heard anything else. Most of those would be shocked to find out that based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written at the time, no American pastor taught the doctrine at the time of the Revolutionary War.

    Dispensationalists have to deny the fulfillment of several of Daniel's prophecies, or see their doctrine fall apart. If that happened they would have to trash all of the Left Behind books and movies sitting on the shelves of the church libraries. They might also have to acknowledge that Revelation 12:11 could apply to them.

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    Last edited: Jul 17, 2017
  12. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Ripping the "time of Jacob's trouble" out of its historical context during the Babylonian captivity and claiming that the "little horn" of Daniel refer to future events are the hallmark of modern Dispensational Theology.



    All false systems of interpretation are not revealed by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.

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  13. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    Mat 24:15  "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand), 
    Mat 24:16  "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 


    Luk 21:20  "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. 
    Luk 21:21  Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. 

    Joh 10:22  Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter. 


    During 167 BC the forces of Antiochus Epiphanes attacked the city of Jerusalem, killing thousands of Jews.
    Antiochus also stopped the temple sacrifices.

    During 70 AD the city would also be attacked and the temple sacrifices would be stopped.



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  14. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    Bible prophecy is clear; there WILL be a new Temple in the last few years before Jesus Returns. There has to be, for the leader of the soon to be established One World Govt, to sit in it as Paul tells us in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-4
    There was no desecration of the second Temple in 70 AD, just destruction, as Jesus predicted. We await the final and complete fulfilment of Daniels prophesies, that will lead up to Jesus Returning and destroying those attacking armies, Revelation 16:13-16, and chaining up Satan.
     
  15. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    There is already a temple in Jerusalem that has been built by the globalists.

    My problem is that it cannot be the temple of the living God.
    That would have to be the Church.



     
  16. keras

    keras Writer of Bible prophecy studies.

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    That is not a dedicated Temple of God.
    The new Temple must be built on the Temple Mount, in line with the East gate, in order for Ezekiel 43:1-12 to be fulfilled. Which is actually North of the Dome of the Rock, but it and the Al-Aqsa Mosque will be gone on the Day of the Lord's wrath.
    Including the Israeli Supreme Court, along with every other building in Jerusalem! Isaiah 64:10-11, Amos 2:4-5, Ezekiel 15:6-8
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2017 at 8:47 PM
  17. BABerean2

    BABerean2 Newbie Supporter

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    The area now known as "The Temple Mount" is the remains of Roman Fort Antonia.
    Josephus described it as being connected to the Jewish temple by a bridge.


    That is not my opinion. It is the opinion of leading Israeli archeologist, Eli Shukron who rediscovered the "Pool of Siloam" a few years ago.

    Christ said no stone would be left stacked on top of another in the temple, and that is what He meant. The area now known as "The Wailing Wall" cannot be part of the Jewish temple.
    A Roman coin found under the bottom layer of stones revealed that the wall was built after Herod's temple.


    The site of the Jewish temple was near Gihon Spring.

    New Evidence for the Site of the Temple in Jerusalem

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