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LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

withwonderingawe

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To everything God has crested, Satan has come up with an opposite.

Very true God has his seer stones and Satan his crystal balls.

But that wasn't the point. The Indians which would have existed around Joseph or he would have read about as he grew up did not have a history of making sacrifices to a god let alone a human sacrifice or of cannibalism as a ritual. If he was going to make up something believable he would have stayed within the Indian culture he knew.
 
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mmksparbud

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Let's just say that the bible is what you say it is. Perfect. If it is so perfect why do you believe differently that another Christian church. Why aren't you all on the same page or the same book


I just answered that--it's a matter of interpretation, not a matter of making up a whole new story.
 
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mmksparbud

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Very true God has his seer stones and Satan his crystal balls.

But that wasn't the point. The Indians which would have existed around Joseph or he would have read about as he grew up did not have a history of making sacrifices to a god let alone a human sacrifice or of cannibalism as a ritual. If he was going to make up something believable he would have stayed within the Indian culture he knew.


Everyone knew that the Mexican, Central and South American Indians had human sacrifice---ever since the Spanish invasion, it was well documented and general knowledge.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Everyone knew that the Mexican, Central and South American Indians had human sacrifice---ever since the Spanish invasion, it was well documented and general knowledge.

For an uneducated kid in rural New York, no. He didn't know there were big cities down there until after the Book of Mormon was published and someone gave him a travel log.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Very true God has his seer stones and Satan his crystal balls.

But that wasn't the point. The Indians which would have existed around Joseph or he would have read about as he grew up did not have a history of making sacrifices to a god let alone a human sacrifice or of cannibalism as a ritual. If he was going to make up something believable he would have stayed within the Indian culture he knew.
God doesn't have seer stones. All of that type of magic is an abomination to God.
 
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ToBeLoved

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For an uneducated kid in rural New York, no. He didn't know there were big cities down there until after the Book of Mormon was published and someone gave him a travel log.
There were all kinds of books in those days. He probably knew a lot.
 
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Peter1000

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There were all kinds of books in those days. He probably knew a lot.
JS was 20 years old.
He had a 3rd grade education.
He worked with his family on a farm in upstate NY.
His family worked all day, every day, to pay their mortgage and put food on the table.
He did not travel very far from home.
The one book that we know he read was the bible.

So it is a lot easier for Mormons to make the case that JS knew nothing of the Central American or North American ancient Indians than it is for you to make a case that he knew a lot about those ancient cultures.

With this great knowledge JS wrote a 531 page book that started in Jerusalem in 600BC and ended in Mexico City in 400AD. Interweaving within its complex story, the Mosaic Law, and Christianity, and cultural fabrics that exist today, and war, with its complex battle strategies and walled cities with earthwork defenses which still exist today, along with a visit from Jesus Christ after his resurrection. The near annihilation of a whole people and the rise their enemies that spread over the Americas, corrupting the gospel of Jesus Christ for over 1100 years (5 times longer than the U.S. has been in existence) until another white man with a beard, coming from the East, on a ship that looked like it had come down from heaven. The prophecy that the ancient god had returned was at hand.

Good luck trying to prove that JS knew a lot about this ancient topic.
 
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Peter1000

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God doesn't have seer stones. All of that type of magic is an abomination to God.
The Urim and Thummim were probably made from 2 stones and they were used in conjunction with the breastplate of 12 stones. There is also a white stone mentioned in Revelations. And these references tell us really nothing about how God used them, or additional ways that God used stones to give men information.

The use of stones to communicate with God is an old, ancient concept, restored again by JS in our day.
 
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Peter1000

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Everyone knew that the Mexican, Central and South American Indians had human sacrifice---ever since the Spanish invasion, it was well documented and general knowledge.
No, everybody in 1826 did not.

That is why John Lloyd Stephens travel log of the Yucatan peninsula was such a success in 1841-1843. His 2 volume work with drawings by Frederick Catherwood, stunned the people of the U.S. and his books flew off the shelves. These descriptions and pictures depicted a very high, complex and rich society of people that hardly anyone could even imagine, owing to the state of the American Indian at the time.

In fact when JS came out with the BOM and it told of a high-civilization people, here on the American continent, and he was laughed at like he was a lunatic. Everyone was looking at the poor, downtrodden, American Indian and just laughed out loud that JS would have been so stupid as to say such stupid things in his new book.

So your well documented and general knowledge of these things among normal Americans is just not true.
 
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Peter1000

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I can only answer for myself with a big 'no'. JS has no truth that God has revealed to him, God let JS errors be known to all the world to expose his religion as a fraud. And JS died, just as God said that false prophets would die claiming their own words to be the words of the Most High.

What, God said that false prophets would die of gunshot wounds. Reference that in the bible would you. Thanks.

You realize that the BOM is the only publication that gives the details of Christ in America?

If the evidence becomes overwhelming that Jesus did come to the Americas after his resurrection, you will not even think twice that the BOM was right, and give it some credit for not only bringing you this knowledge, but staying strong in the light of all the scientists that laugh, and mainline Christians that scoff at the thought of it?

You are tuff.
 
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Peter1000

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God has preserved His words--it is man that is not interpreting them right---0there's difference. Though there are different interpretations, it is still the same words. You don't believe that they're the same words. We argue over the meaning of a verse. JS not only changes the verse, he adds all sorts of stuff--He has a whole other book --books---totally none of which is in the bible. It's not like he has a different explanation for the same verse---he has added a whole people, and whole different story of Jesus-that He was in America after His resurrection and so on and on. A whole different story from God breathed life into Adam to Adam already existed. His word has been preserved,
JS is the apostasy with a whole different story.

JS story is different because mainline Christianity has lost information and changed information so much that God needed to restore lost knowledge in order to have the true salvation principals taught again.
 
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mmksparbud

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JS story is different because mainline Christianity has lost information and changed information so much that God needed to restore lost knowledge in order to have the true salvation principals taught again.


I will repost as this was ignored on another thread.

"The utmost care and attention were bestowed upon spelling, crowning certain letters (Taggin), dotting others, copying abnormalities, and upon the regulations as to spacing for parashiyyot and sections. Some soferim were careful to begin the columns of the Sefer Torah with a word commencing with a "waw," allowing an equal number of lines to every column. Such columns were known as "wawe ha'ammudim" or "waw-columns." The preparation of phylacteries and mezuzot required a similar exercise of watchfulness. R. Ishmael said to a sofer: "My son, be careful in thy work, as it is a heavenly work, lest thou err in omitting or adding one iota, and so cause the destruction of the whole world" ('Er. 13a). The sofer was required to copy the text from a model form made by an expert, and was not permitted to rely on his memory. "Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee" (Prov. iv. 25) is the advice given to a sofer. R. Ḥisda, finding R. Hananeel writing a Sefer Torah from memory, said to him: "Indeed thou art able to write the whole Torah by heart; but our sages have forbidden the writing of even one letter without an exemplar" (Meg. 18b).
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13356-scribes

"The Masoretes also added a system of checks and balances to make sure that the text was copied accurately by their scribes and the system was very, very, thorough. Numbers were placed at the end of each book, telling the copyists the exact number of words that a book contained in its originaly manuscript. If the copy had a few more words or a few less words than the original, the copy was thrown away. At the end of each book, the Masoretes also listed the word or the phrase that would have numerically been found in the exact middle of the book. Again, if the copy did not have the right word or phrase in its middle, it was thrown away.

To double-check for accuracy, after one scribe had finished writing, another scribe would begin to count his words and to look for the phrase that appeared in the middle of the book. If he found everything as it should be, the copy would be kept and used for reading and studying. If the scribe found so much as one error, the copy would be discarded and the writing scribe would have to start all over again on another copy. Talk about a frustrating job! A scribe could spend up to several months copying the Book of Ezekiel, only to find that he was one word off the number count and he must now start all over again.
Another footnote the margins included was the ketib / qere. The ketib meant “what is written” and the qere meant “what is read.”10 These footnotes were included to indicate what the reader was supposed to read out loud and what he was not supposed to read out loud. There was the written material and there was the read material (read “out loud in front of an audience” material).

Hebrew Old Testaments were read out loud in synagogues to the Jews and the Masoretes believed that there were some things in the text that were not intended to be read out loud. For instance, the name Yahweh was considered sacred to the Jews. It was so sacred that the Masoretes felt that it should not be pronounced out loud. What if someone sneezed while reading it? Wouldn’t that be blasphemous? What if someone mispronounced it or burped or hiccupped while saying it? Would that not be a dishonor to God’s holy name? To ensure that none of that happened, the Masoretes included a footnote above the name Yahweh every time it appeared in the text. The footnote referenced a note in the margin which gave another name to be read in its place. The ketib was Yahweh. The qere was usually a name like Adoniah.

How accurate were the Masoeretes at copying the Old Testament? By all accounts, the Masoretes were incredibly, we could even say supernaturally, accurate. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947, a complete copy of the Book of Isaiah was found from 125 B.C.11 When it was compared with a scroll of Isaiah from A.D. 900, a scroll copied 10 centuries later, it was found to match in 95 % of its contents. The material that did not match included simple misspellings or slips of the pen. No doctrinal material was affected by the discrepancies. And it can be certain that the Masoretes and their Jewish counterparts played a great role in the accuracy of that text. And there are other examples from ancient history that show the exactness of the copying of the Old Testament.12"
http://www.justthesimpletruth.com/was-the-bible-copied-accurately/
 
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ToBeLoved

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JS was 20 years old.
He had a 3rd grade education.
He worked with his family on a farm in upstate NY.
His family worked all day, every day, to pay their mortgage and put food on the table.
He did not travel very far from home.
The one book that we know he read was the bible.

So it is a lot easier for Mormons to make the case that JS knew nothing of the Central American or North American ancient Indians than it is for you to make a case that he knew a lot about those ancient cultures.

With this great knowledge JS wrote a 531 page book that started in Jerusalem in 600BC and ended in Mexico City in 400AD. Interweaving within its complex story, the Mosaic Law, and Christianity, and cultural fabrics that exist today, and war, with its complex battle strategies and walled cities with earthwork defenses which still exist today, along with a visit from Jesus Christ after his resurrection. The near annihilation of a whole people and the rise their enemies that spread over the Americas, corrupting the gospel of Jesus Christ for over 1100 years (5 times longer than the U.S. has been in existence) until another white man with a beard, coming from the East, on a ship that looked like it had come down from heaven. The prophecy that the ancient god had returned was at hand.

Good luck trying to prove that JS knew a lot about this ancient topic.
Your saying that he was uneducated does not prove that he didn't read books. There is nothing for us to prove.
 
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ToBeLoved

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I will repost as this was ignored on another thread.

"The utmost care and attention were bestowed upon spelling, crowning certain letters (Taggin), dotting others, copying abnormalities, and upon the regulations as to spacing for parashiyyot and sections. Some soferim were careful to begin the columns of the Sefer Torah with a word commencing with a "waw," allowing an equal number of lines to every column. Such columns were known as "wawe ha'ammudim" or "waw-columns." The preparation of phylacteries and mezuzot required a similar exercise of watchfulness. R. Ishmael said to a sofer: "My son, be careful in thy work, as it is a heavenly work, lest thou err in omitting or adding one iota, and so cause the destruction of the whole world" ('Er. 13a). The sofer was required to copy the text from a model form made by an expert, and was not permitted to rely on his memory. "Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee" (Prov. iv. 25) is the advice given to a sofer. R. Ḥisda, finding R. Hananeel writing a Sefer Torah from memory, said to him: "Indeed thou art able to write the whole Torah by heart; but our sages have forbidden the writing of even one letter without an exemplar" (Meg. 18b).
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13356-scribes

"The Masoretes also added a system of checks and balances to make sure that the text was copied accurately by their scribes and the system was very, very, thorough. Numbers were placed at the end of each book, telling the copyists the exact number of words that a book contained in its originaly manuscript. If the copy had a few more words or a few less words than the original, the copy was thrown away. At the end of each book, the Masoretes also listed the word or the phrase that would have numerically been found in the exact middle of the book. Again, if the copy did not have the right word or phrase in its middle, it was thrown away.

To double-check for accuracy, after one scribe had finished writing, another scribe would begin to count his words and to look for the phrase that appeared in the middle of the book. If he found everything as it should be, the copy would be kept and used for reading and studying. If the scribe found so much as one error, the copy would be discarded and the writing scribe would have to start all over again on another copy. Talk about a frustrating job! A scribe could spend up to several months copying the Book of Ezekiel, only to find that he was one word off the number count and he must now start all over again.
Another footnote the margins included was the ketib / qere. The ketib meant “what is written” and the qere meant “what is read.”10 These footnotes were included to indicate what the reader was supposed to read out loud and what he was not supposed to read out loud. There was the written material and there was the read material (read “out loud in front of an audience” material).

Hebrew Old Testaments were read out loud in synagogues to the Jews and the Masoretes believed that there were some things in the text that were not intended to be read out loud. For instance, the name Yahweh was considered sacred to the Jews. It was so sacred that the Masoretes felt that it should not be pronounced out loud. What if someone sneezed while reading it? Wouldn’t that be blasphemous? What if someone mispronounced it or burped or hiccupped while saying it? Would that not be a dishonor to God’s holy name? To ensure that none of that happened, the Masoretes included a footnote above the name Yahweh every time it appeared in the text. The footnote referenced a note in the margin which gave another name to be read in its place. The ketib was Yahweh. The qere was usually a name like Adoniah.

How accurate were the Masoeretes at copying the Old Testament? By all accounts, the Masoretes were incredibly, we could even say supernaturally, accurate. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947, a complete copy of the Book of Isaiah was found from 125 B.C.11 When it was compared with a scroll of Isaiah from A.D. 900, a scroll copied 10 centuries later, it was found to match in 95 % of its contents. The material that did not match included simple misspellings or slips of the pen. No doctrinal material was affected by the discrepancies. And it can be certain that the Masoretes and their Jewish counterparts played a great role in the accuracy of that text. And there are other examples from ancient history that show the exactness of the copying of the Old Testament.12"
http://www.justthesimpletruth.com/was-the-bible-copied-accurately/
Remember who you are talking to. Their prophet and his folks lost over 100 pages of their BOM. The last thing they want to admit is that the Bible has taken more care in being held for over 2,000 years.
 
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ToBeLoved

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JS story is different because mainline Christianity has lost information and changed information so much that God needed to restore lost knowledge in order to have the true salvation principals taught again.
The interesting thing is that you are really not proving that. It is hard to change an original language, is it not?

This is your grand proof that Christianity is wrong? Umm.. yeah, ok. That's why you cannot convince no one.

The Mormons have no Jewish descent. There were no horses, grains and other things that JS spoke of in his books and no prophet of OUR God would go around marry other man's wives and sending them on trips to do so.

Face it.

A new thread should be started on the fact that no one in the times that JS says the plates were written used gold to write. It wasn't hard enough. It wasn't even a possible medium for gold plates.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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JS was 20 years old.
He had a 3rd grade education.
He worked with his family on a farm in upstate NY.
His family worked all day, every day, to pay their mortgage and put food on the table.
He did not travel very far from home.
The one book that we know he read was the bible.

So it is a lot easier for Mormons to make the case that JS knew nothing of the Central American or North American ancient Indians than it is for you to make a case that he knew a lot about those ancient cultures.

With this great knowledge JS wrote a 531 page book that started in Jerusalem in 600BC and ended in Mexico City in 400AD. Interweaving within its complex story, the Mosaic Law, and Christianity, and cultural fabrics that exist today, and war, with its complex battle strategies and walled cities with earthwork defenses which still exist today, along with a visit from Jesus Christ after his resurrection. The near annihilation of a whole people and the rise their enemies that spread over the Americas, corrupting the gospel of Jesus Christ for over 1100 years (5 times longer than the U.S. has been in existence) until another white man with a beard, coming from the East, on a ship that looked like it had come down from heaven. The prophecy that the ancient god had returned was at hand.

Good luck trying to prove that JS knew a lot about this ancient topic.
JS was uneducated and stupid - that much we agree on.

However, he was good at being a con artist. That takes a certain kind of skill but not brains, certainly not "book smarts". As with most con artists, he always sought the easiest path to gain things. Despite being a stupid man, he was a man with no morals and he plagiarized at will from the books that he read which were popular at the time.

For starters, he plagiarized from the King James Bible - this explains why he chose to use Jacobean English, which would not otherwise make sense for a 19th century stupid farm boy to translate something into. It's much easier to plagiarize when you don't have to change the language into a more modern form.

Another one that he stole quite visibly from is "Manuscript Found" by Solomon Spaulding. That book was written in 1812, about 10 years before the Book of Mormon. In that fiction, Spaulding created characters with the names "Mormon," "Maroni," "Lamenite," and "Nephi." Wow, what a coincidence!

There are other books that he plagiarized from as well. When a man is stupid and has no morals, plagiarism is going to be a major tool in setting up his confidence games and scams. That's the legacy of Joseph Smith.
 
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Peter1000

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I will repost as this was ignored on another thread.

"The utmost care and attention were bestowed upon spelling, crowning certain letters (Taggin), dotting others, copying abnormalities, and upon the regulations as to spacing for parashiyyot and sections. Some soferim were careful to begin the columns of the Sefer Torah with a word commencing with a "waw," allowing an equal number of lines to every column. Such columns were known as "wawe ha'ammudim" or "waw-columns." The preparation of phylacteries and mezuzot required a similar exercise of watchfulness. R. Ishmael said to a sofer: "My son, be careful in thy work, as it is a heavenly work, lest thou err in omitting or adding one iota, and so cause the destruction of the whole world" ('Er. 13a). The sofer was required to copy the text from a model form made by an expert, and was not permitted to rely on his memory. "Let thine eyes look right on, and let thine eyelids look straight before thee" (Prov. iv. 25) is the advice given to a sofer. R. Ḥisda, finding R. Hananeel writing a Sefer Torah from memory, said to him: "Indeed thou art able to write the whole Torah by heart; but our sages have forbidden the writing of even one letter without an exemplar" (Meg. 18b).
http://jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/13356-scribes

"The Masoretes also added a system of checks and balances to make sure that the text was copied accurately by their scribes and the system was very, very, thorough. Numbers were placed at the end of each book, telling the copyists the exact number of words that a book contained in its originaly manuscript. If the copy had a few more words or a few less words than the original, the copy was thrown away. At the end of each book, the Masoretes also listed the word or the phrase that would have numerically been found in the exact middle of the book. Again, if the copy did not have the right word or phrase in its middle, it was thrown away.

To double-check for accuracy, after one scribe had finished writing, another scribe would begin to count his words and to look for the phrase that appeared in the middle of the book. If he found everything as it should be, the copy would be kept and used for reading and studying. If the scribe found so much as one error, the copy would be discarded and the writing scribe would have to start all over again on another copy. Talk about a frustrating job! A scribe could spend up to several months copying the Book of Ezekiel, only to find that he was one word off the number count and he must now start all over again.
Another footnote the margins included was the ketib / qere. The ketib meant “what is written” and the qere meant “what is read.”10 These footnotes were included to indicate what the reader was supposed to read out loud and what he was not supposed to read out loud. There was the written material and there was the read material (read “out loud in front of an audience” material).

Hebrew Old Testaments were read out loud in synagogues to the Jews and the Masoretes believed that there were some things in the text that were not intended to be read out loud. For instance, the name Yahweh was considered sacred to the Jews. It was so sacred that the Masoretes felt that it should not be pronounced out loud. What if someone sneezed while reading it? Wouldn’t that be blasphemous? What if someone mispronounced it or burped or hiccupped while saying it? Would that not be a dishonor to God’s holy name? To ensure that none of that happened, the Masoretes included a footnote above the name Yahweh every time it appeared in the text. The footnote referenced a note in the margin which gave another name to be read in its place. The ketib was Yahweh. The qere was usually a name like Adoniah.

How accurate were the Masoeretes at copying the Old Testament? By all accounts, the Masoretes were incredibly, we could even say supernaturally, accurate. When the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered in 1947, a complete copy of the Book of Isaiah was found from 125 B.C.11 When it was compared with a scroll of Isaiah from A.D. 900, a scroll copied 10 centuries later, it was found to match in 95 % of its contents. The material that did not match included simple misspellings or slips of the pen. No doctrinal material was affected by the discrepancies. And it can be certain that the Masoretes and their Jewish counterparts played a great role in the accuracy of that text. And there are other examples from ancient history that show the exactness of the copying of the Old Testament.12"
http://www.justthesimpletruth.com/was-the-bible-copied-accurately/
All your research is fine and that would be the case if the Masoretes were the only persons who copied the originals. But they were probably only a small percentage of people that did copy the originals.

Have you ever heard of Marcion, around 144ad? Do you know what he did with the originals?

Are you aware of the copiest that added 1 John 5:7 that was meant to support a Trinitarian theology, but was not in the original manuscript?

Do you know why the rulers of the Jews at the time of Jesus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah? How do you miss such a momentous occasion, one that all the prophets looked forward to and all wanted to live to see that day? The most important day of the entire history of the world, and they missed it. Why?

The most important name in the history of the world is not found in the OT, why?

The most important birth of the most important man to be born on earth and his first advent as the poor Messiah is only found in code in the bible. It is dispersed throughout the OT only in well camouflaged verses, why?

I will let you answer the whys. Thanks
 
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ToBeLoved

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All your research is fine and that would be the case if the Masoretes were the only persons who copied the originals. But they were probably only a small percentage of people that did copy the originals.

Have you ever heard of Marcion, around 144ad? Do you know what he did with the originals?

Are you aware of the copiest that added 1 John 5:7 that was meant to support a Trinitarian theology, but was not in the original manuscript?

Do you know why the rulers of the Jews at the time of Jesus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah? How do you miss such a momentous occasion, one that all the prophets looked forward to and all wanted to live to see that day? The most important day of the entire history of the world, and they missed it. Why?

The most important name in the history of the world is not found in the OT, why?

The most important birth of the most important man to be born on earth and his first advent as the poor Messiah is only found in code in the bible. It is dispersed throughout the OT only in well camouflaged verses, why?

I will let you answer the whys. Thanks

What proof you offer. Lol.

Jesus will come back for the Jews. Not the Mormons.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
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Peter1000

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JS was uneducated and stupid - that much we agree on.

However, he was good at being a con artist. That takes a certain kind of skill but not brains, certainly not "book smarts". As with most con artists, he always sought the easiest path to gain things. Despite being a stupid man, he was a man with no morals and he plagiarized at will from the books that he read which were popular at the time.

For starters, he plagiarized from the King James Bible - this explains why he chose to use Jacobean English, which would not otherwise make sense for a 19th century stupid farm boy to translate something into. It's much easier to plagiarize when you don't have to change the language into a more modern form.

Another one that he stole quite visibly from is "Manuscript Found" by Solomon Spaulding. That book was written in 1812, about 10 years before the Book of Mormon. In that fiction, Spaulding created characters with the names "Mormon," "Maroni," "Lamenite," and "Nephi." Wow, what a coincidence!

There are other books that he plagiarized from as well. When a man is stupid and has no morals, plagiarism is going to be a major tool in setting up his confidence games and scams. That's the legacy of Joseph Smith.
Your language about JS sounds just like the men that came forth after the prophet was killed and called him all kinds of names. So you are in a long line of anti-Mormon people that call JS stupid. He was uneducated, but he was not stupid. How do you go from a farm boy in NY to leading 30,000 new members of a new Christian church in 15 years. He was not stupid.

'Manuscript Found', has not been found yet. Are you aware of that fact? It is a book that does not exist. So how can you with any honesty say that JS stole quite visibly from 'Manuscript Found'. You make everyone believe that you have had the 2 books side by side and made a visible analysis and came up with your conclusion. Not a very smart statement. It is the hopes of all anti-Mormons that this manuscript will be found, but to date there is nothing but hope. There are afidavids of people who sware that the names in the BOM are in 'Manuscript Found'. Could they be lying about that, so to give some meat to the story that there were 2 manuscripts. 'Manuscript story' has been found, and it was very disappointing to anti-Mormons that it did not resemble the BOM. So the hope is that 'Manuscript Found' will be found.

So at this point you are quoting from an unpublished book, whose manuscript either does not exist or has not been discovered yet. I'm surprised that it doesn't resemble the BOM more than it does.

You make up a book and then make up what it says, and you call JS stupid.
 
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