LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[ToBeLoved]

All your research is fine and that would be the case if the Masoretes were the only persons who copied the originals. But they were probably only a small percentage of people that did copy the originals.

Have you ever heard of Marcion, around 144ad? Do you know what he did with the originals?

Are you aware of the copiest that added 1 John 5:7 that was meant to support a Trinitarian theology, but was not in the original manuscript?

Do you know why the rulers of the Jews at the time of Jesus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah? How do you miss such a momentous occasion, one that all the prophets looked forward to and all wanted to live to see that day? The most important day of the entire history of the world, and they missed it. Why?

The most important name in the history of the world is not found in the OT, why?

The most important birth of the most important man to be born on earth and his first advent as the poor Messiah is only found in code in the bible. It is dispersed throughout the OT only in well camouflaged verses, why?

I will let you answer the whys. Thanks

Where is your source? Exactly.

Why should anyone else have to research it if it's true. Point us to it.

 

[mmksparbud]

All your research is fine and that would be the case if the Masoretes were the only persons who copied the originals. But they were probably only a small percentage of people that did copy the originals.

Have you ever heard of Marcion, around 144ad? Do you know what he did with the originals?

Are you aware of the copiest that added 1 John 5:7 that was meant to support a Trinitarian theology, but was not in the original manuscript?

Do you know why the rulers of the Jews at the time of Jesus did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah? How do you miss such a momentous occasion, one that all the prophets looked forward to and all wanted to live to see that day? The most important day of the entire history of the world, and they missed it. Why?

The most important name in the history of the world is not found in the OT, why?

The most important birth of the most important man to be born on earth and his first advent as the poor Messiah is only found in code in the bible. It is dispersed throughout the OT only in well camouflaged verses, why?

I will let you answer the whys. Thanks

I give you a source and quote and all you give is "probably!! You got sources here or what? I'm sure the Mormon site should give you plenty of ammo so start quoting your source.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Your language about JS sounds just like the men that came forth after the prophet was killed and called him all kinds of names. So you are in a long line of anti-Mormon people that call JS stupid. He was uneducated, but he was not stupid. How do you go from a farm boy in NY to leading 30,000 new members of a new Christian church in 15 years. He was not stupid.

'Manuscript Found', has not been found yet. Are you aware of that fact? It is a book that does not exist. So how can you with any honesty say that JS stole quite visibly from 'Manuscript Found'. You make everyone believe that you have had the 2 books side by side and made a visible analysis and came up with your conclusion. Not a very smart statement. It is the hopes of all anti-Mormons that this manuscript will be found, but to date there is nothing but hope. There are afidavids of people who sware that the names in the BOM are in 'Manuscript Found'. Could they be lying about that, so to give some meat to the story that there were 2 manuscripts. 'Manuscript story' has been found, and it was very disappointing to anti-Mormons that it did not resemble the BOM. So the hope is that 'Manuscript Found' will be found.

So at this point you are quoting from an unpublished book, whose manuscript either does not exist or has not been discovered yet. I'm surprised that it doesn't resemble the BOM more than it does.

You make up a book and then make up what it says, and you call JS stupid.

Thank you for admitting that Joseph Smith was a smart man. I agree, I was wrong earlier when I said he was stupid. On second thought, it takes a clever and smart man to be a good con artist. Joseph Smith was such a clever and smart man, as you assert. Such a smart man would also be very resourceful. The fact that he lacked much formal education would not impact his being smart and able to read books and learn things (and steal and plagiarize as well).

As for Manuscript Found, you are correct, it is not in print and there are affidavits that attest to its existence. Affidavits should be acceptable evidence for mormons; after all, affidavits are testimonies, sworn ones at that, and mormons accept testimonies from each other and from the "Three Witnesses" to the writing of the book of mormon (Manuscript Found, by the way, has 7 affidavits attesting to it - more than double the witnesses of the BOM and these are SWORN testimonies). Furthermore, there is no original Book of Mormon either - the golden plates have never been seen. So it's a matter of who you believe.

But there are many other sources that Joseph plagiarized from - I already mentioned that he plagiarized from the Bible, which constituted a lot of his making up of the Book of Mormon. But there are other sources as well. For example, the books View of the Hebrews and The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (which quoted at length from View of the Hebrews). View of the Hebrews was written by Ethan Smith, a minister who tried to establish a case for Israelites coming to America (sound familiar?). He published this book years before the Book of Mormon. So where would Joseph get the idea???? Hmmm... The other book, "The Wonders...", was easily accessible and quoted the first book in regards to the theory of American Indians being descendants of the tribes of Israel.

And the whole theory that Native Americans were descended from the tribes of Israel goes far, far back to the 1600's, so it's nothing miraculous that Joseph Smith would concoct his own version of such a theory, and even less miraculous when you realize that he plagiarized it from the current books of his time that he had access to.

There are yet more sources that he plagiarized, but I'll leave it here for now. There's way too much to contain in a single post.

 

[mmksparbud]

Thank you for admitting that Joseph Smith was a smart man. I agree, I was wrong earlier when I said he was stupid. On second thought, it takes a clever and smart man to be a good con artist. Joseph Smith was such a clever and smart man, as you assert. Such a smart man would also be very resourceful. The fact that he lacked much formal education would not impact his being smart and able to read books and learn things (and steal and plagiarize as well).

As for Manuscript Found, you are correct, it is not in print and there are affidavits that attest to its existence. Affidavits should be acceptable evidence for mormons; after all, affidavits are testimonies, sworn ones at that, and mormons accept testimonies from each other and from the "Three Witnesses" to the writing of the book of mormon (Manuscript Found, by the way, has 7 affidavits attesting to it - more than double the witnesses of the BOM and these are SWORN testimonies). Furthermore, there is no original Book of Mormon either - the golden plates have never been seen. So it's a matter of who you believe.

But there are many other sources that Joseph plagiarized from - I already mentioned that he plagiarized from the Bible, which constituted a lot of his making up of the Book of Mormon. But there are other sources as well. For example, the books View of the Hebrews and The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (which quoted at length from View of the Hebrews). View of the Hebrews was written by Ethan Smith, a minister who tried to establish a case for Israelites coming to America (sound familiar?). He published this book years before the Book of Mormon. So where would Joseph get the idea???? Hmmm... The other book, "The Wonders...", was easily accessible and quoted the first book in regards to the theory of American Indians being descendants of the tribes of Israel.

And the whole theory that Native Americans were descended from the tribes of Israel goes far, far back to the 1600's, so it's nothing miraculous that Joseph Smith would concoct his own version of such a theory, and even less miraculous when you realize that he plagiarized it from the current books of his time that he had access to.

There are yet more sources that he plagiarized, but I'll leave it here for now. There's way too much to contain in a single post.

I haven't read the whole thing, it is pretty lengthy and we just found out a der friend has cancer and I may not have the time to finish reading this. Perhaps you can, it sounds interesting. It is a response to the attacks on the Solomon Spaulding enigma.

 

[fatboys]

Thank you for admitting that Joseph Smith was a smart man. I agree, I was wrong earlier when I said he was stupid. On second thought, it takes a clever and smart man to be a good con artist. Joseph Smith was such a clever and smart man, as you assert. Such a smart man would also be very resourceful. The fact that he lacked much formal education would not impact his being smart and able to read books and learn things (and steal and plagiarize as well).

As for Manuscript Found, you are correct, it is not in print and there are affidavits that attest to its existence. Affidavits should be acceptable evidence for mormons; after all, affidavits are testimonies, sworn ones at that, and mormons accept testimonies from each other and from the "Three Witnesses" to the writing of the book of mormon (Manuscript Found, by the way, has 7 affidavits attesting to it - more than double the witnesses of the BOM and these are SWORN testimonies). Furthermore, there is no original Book of Mormon either - the golden plates have never been seen. So it's a matter of who you believe.

But there are many other sources that Joseph plagiarized from - I already mentioned that he plagiarized from the Bible, which constituted a lot of his making up of the Book of Mormon. But there are other sources as well. For example, the books View of the Hebrews and The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (which quoted at length from View of the Hebrews). View of the Hebrews was written by Ethan Smith, a minister who tried to establish a case for Israelites coming to America (sound familiar?). He published this book years before the Book of Mormon. So where would Joseph get the idea???? Hmmm... The other book, "The Wonders...", was easily accessible and quoted the first book in regards to the theory of American Indians being descendants of the tribes of Israel.

And the whole theory that Native Americans were descended from the tribes of Israel goes far, far back to the 1600's, so it's nothing miraculous that Joseph Smith would concoct his own version of such a theory, and even less miraculous when you realize that he plagiarized it from the current books of his time that he had access to.

There are yet more sources that he plagiarized, but I'll leave it here for now. There's way too much to contain in a single post.

Have ever read any of these books? If not you are just trying to blow smoke up our skirts.

 

[Peter1000]

Where is your source? Exactly.

Why should anyone else have to research it if it's true. Point us to it.

I asked 5 questions in that post, and you aswered none.

Marcion - http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-canon-of-marcion.htm

1 John 5:7 https://www.ucg.org/bible-study-too...-reference-to-the-trinity-added-in-1-john-5-7

Opinion on the other 3 questions. Wanted your opinion too.

 

[Peter1000]

Thank you for admitting that Joseph Smith was a smart man. I agree, I was wrong earlier when I said he was stupid. On second thought, it takes a clever and smart man to be a good con artist. Joseph Smith was such a clever and smart man, as you assert. Such a smart man would also be very resourceful. The fact that he lacked much formal education would not impact his being smart and able to read books and learn things (and steal and plagiarize as well).

As for Manuscript Found, you are correct, it is not in print and there are affidavits that attest to its existence. Affidavits should be acceptable evidence for mormons; after all, affidavits are testimonies, sworn ones at that, and mormons accept testimonies from each other and from the "Three Witnesses" to the writing of the book of mormon (Manuscript Found, by the way, has 7 affidavits attesting to it - more than double the witnesses of the BOM and these are SWORN testimonies). Furthermore, there is no original Book of Mormon either -

the golden plates have never been seen.

So it's a matter of who you believe.

But there are many other sources that Joseph plagiarized from - I already mentioned that he plagiarized from the Bible, which constituted a lot of his making up of the Book of Mormon. But there are other sources as well. For example, the books View of the Hebrews and The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (which quoted at length from View of the Hebrews). View of the Hebrews was written by Ethan Smith, a minister who tried to establish a case for Israelites coming to America (sound familiar?). He published this book years before the Book of Mormon. So where would Joseph get the idea???? Hmmm... The other book, "The Wonders...", was easily accessible and quoted the first book in regards to the theory of American Indians being descendants of the tribes of Israel.

And the whole theory that Native Americans were descended from the tribes of Israel goes far, far back to the 1600's, so it's nothing miraculous that Joseph Smith would concoct his own version of such a theory, and even less miraculous when you realize that he plagiarized it from the current books of his time that he had access to.

There are yet more sources that he plagiarized, but I'll leave it here for now. There's way too much to contain in a single post.

The plates were seen by 3 witnesses who saw an angel bring them the plates. They were able to lift them up and turn over the leaves etc.. Then 8 people saw the plates, but no angel. They too were able to lift them and turn over the leaves and they all testify that they existed because they saw them and hefted them.

Now here is the interesting thing about these 11 men. Not one of these men, though many were excommunicated from the church, has ever denied seeing the golden plates. Isn't that interesting that JS would bring these men in on the big scam, sell thousands of BOM, give these men nothing, and then excommunicate them and throw them out without getting nothing, but yet not one has come forward to expose the scam. But not 1 has come forth to expose JS and the real story behind the BOM. Don't you think that is interesting?

Tell me why not one of these witnesses ever came out with the real story/scam?

What you are telling me is some people swore that the name of Nephi was in a manuscript written by Spaulding. So when the manuscript was found and published, it disappointingly contained no names from it in the BOM, it didn't stop there. So another manuscript was imaginarily created to take into account these false witnesses. It has now been in existence for 180 years. It has never been published, it has never been seen. It has never been read, except for Spaulding reading it to friends. It has never been lifted by up by any witness.

So where does that leave us? Until 'manuscript found' is actually 'found', we have a made up manuscript, with made up sayings, and made up names taken from the BOM.

You can keep going on these ideas that JS and company plagerized the BOM, but they all lead to a dead end. There is nobody that has come forth to expose this scam, and there was lots of people that participated in the early Mormon church and the bringing forth of the BOM. Certainly, some disgruntled, excommunicated, thrown-out scammer, that had been slighted by JS would have stepped forward and exposed the con.

I will tell you why I think no scammer has stepped forward to expose the scam: It is because it was not a scam in the first place. Pretty simple. JS really did talk to Jesus and received information from him. Jesus sent Moroni to give JS the gold plates and JS then translated the plates into a complex 531 page religious/historical book, that swept accross the U.S. and within approximately 10 years, JS was hailed as a modern Moses type prophet, with 30,000+ people at his side, and willing to give up their lives for their testimony that JS was a true prophet of God. With the help of Jesus, JS put together a unique American Christian church that immediately started to go to the entire world, starting in Canada and England and the Hawaiin Islands and to the Indian nations of North America. Today there are nearly 16,000,000 members and we are sending missionaries to over 160 nations of the world. The BOM is in the top ten books in the world, with distributions of over 150,000,000 copies to over 110 languages.

Read Math. 7:15-17: This scripture says to watch out for false prophets. The way you can tell if they are false or not is by their accomplishments or their fruit. For a bad tree will not bring forth good fruit and a good tree will not bring forth bad fruit. So look at what JS accomplished and has accomplished in the way of bringing forth good fruit. (remember he only had about 13 years to accomplish all that he did). If you were at all honest you would be impressed. When you are tutored by Jesus Christ, you can do anything, and he proved it, under great pursecution from the moment he told about the gold plates, the pursection was relentless, until he was murdered by an army unit that was called up to protect him by the governor of Illinois.

Today, in the state of Illinois, that killed him and thought they got rid of the Mormons, there are 2 exquisite Mormon temples. There are 150 temples operating, 16 under construction, and 11 just announced to be under construciton.
JS fruit just keeps coming, and it is speeding up as the days go by, because it is important to keep the pace in order that all men will have the opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ before the second coming of Jesus Christ.

All of this is done for the glory of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

 

[Peter1000]

Thank you for admitting that Joseph Smith was a smart man. I agree, I was wrong earlier when I said he was stupid. On second thought, it takes a clever and smart man to be a good con artist. Joseph Smith was such a clever and smart man, as you assert. Such a smart man would also be very resourceful. The fact that he lacked much formal education would not impact his being smart and able to read books and learn things (and steal and plagiarize as well).

As for Manuscript Found, you are correct, it is not in print and there are affidavits that attest to its existence. Affidavits should be acceptable evidence for mormons; after all, affidavits are testimonies, sworn ones at that, and mormons accept testimonies from each other and from the "Three Witnesses" to the writing of the book of mormon (Manuscript Found, by the way, has 7 affidavits attesting to it - more than double the witnesses of the BOM and these are SWORN testimonies). Furthermore, there is no original Book of Mormon either - the golden plates have never been seen. So it's a matter of who you believe.

But there are many other sources that Joseph plagiarized from - I already mentioned that he plagiarized from the Bible, which constituted a lot of his making up of the Book of Mormon. But there are other sources as well. For example, the books View of the Hebrews and The Wonders of Nature and Providence Displayed (which quoted at length from View of the Hebrews). View of the Hebrews was written by Ethan Smith, a minister who tried to establish a case for Israelites coming to America (sound familiar?). He published this book years before the Book of Mormon. So where would Joseph get the idea???? Hmmm... The other book, "The Wonders...", was easily accessible and quoted the first book in regards to the theory of American Indians being descendants of the tribes of Israel.

And the whole theory that Native Americans were descended from the tribes of Israel goes far, far back to the 1600's, so it's nothing miraculous that Joseph Smith would concoct his own version of such a theory, and even less miraculous when you realize that he plagiarized it from the current books of his time that he had access to.

There are yet more sources that he plagiarized, but I'll leave it here for now. There's way too much to contain in a single post.

You say: Thank you for admitting that Joseph Smith was a smart man. I agree, I was wrong earlier when I said he was stupid. On second thought, it takes a clever and smart man to be a good con artist. Joseph Smith was such a clever and smart man, as you assert. Such a smart man would also be very resourceful. The fact that he lacked much formal education would not impact his being smart and able to read books and learn things (and steal and plagiarize as well).

Here is the real catch. JS not only brought many people in on his scam, and undoubtedly promised them a lot of money to warrent their help. So what do you think would happen to these disgusting men if the whole scam started to go wrong?

JS brought convinced a man in to give him $3,000 to get the first 5,000 BOM published. This man, Martin Harris, sold his farm to raise the money for the publishing. JS sold about all 5,000 copies. Now if this were a scam, there was a lot of money brought in on the sale of these 5,000 copies. But JS gave Martin Harris the money that he had borrowed back. I would say that JS, if he were scamming, this would have been a great scam to just not pay Martin back. $3,000 was a small fortune in that day.

The other members of the gang, after a time, were thrown out of the gang, but for some, mind-boggling reason they did not turn on JS and their BOM experience. You would think that being pushed out of the gang without having received the wealth they were promised would have resulted in a lot of actions to put JS in his place as the top con artist of the century.

So think about it.

 

[mmksparbud]

Do you know what people did to those perpetuating a fraud? As it is, JS supposedly was tarred and feathered. It can take months to get that stuff off and very painful. No one on their right mind would admit to fraud. JS knew that.

 

[tickingclocker]

So God would not let Lucifer become God because he didn't have the priesthood? He was an arch-angel. Now why would God let a Mormon become God and not an arch-angel? And kick the arch-angel out of heaven and curse him for all eternity, yet let you become God.

Does not God say there will be NO OTHER GODS BUT ME?

Your priesthood cannot thwart God's will if your priesthood is God's will. So you see that there is no sense in that statement you made.

Especially since JS claimed that angels are not a separate race. They are humans.

Actually God said "there is no other gods except Me", as in present-tense, as in forever because God is always ever-present. He repeats this phrase 12 times in the bible. When God repeats Himself it isn't just to hear Himself talk.

“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I Am God, and there is no other. (Isa 45:22)

What Mormons don't want to address is, the phrasing used in those various verses which describe the Lord creating EVERYTHING in the universe. Why? Because they conveniently tag onto the end of that statement of the Lord of All, that He is just a god "for us". This would eliminate other 'gods' being in existence in this universe, or, God is a liar. So do they believe that there are other universes which have their own Mormon gods? They would have to. So obviously this Mormon god's jurisdiction would have to be within this universe. But too many don't believe that.

 

[Myrtle Stics]

He used members of his religion as human piggy banks and wallets. He had all the money he wanted whenever he wanted. All he ever had to do if it came down to it was tell a member he had "a revalation!" that that member should do what he wanted. Just like he did with Emma about plural marriage, told her it was a revelation and commandment from God.

Just look at the mansion he forced a member to pay for via religious blackmail - he told a wealthy doctor who was a member that he had a "revelation!!!" from God that the doctor should build a mansion for his family, and the doctor did as commanded.

Con man and shyster.

Calling Prophet Joseph Smith a con man is like calling Abraham a con man

 

[Myrtle Stics]

Especially since JS claimed that angels are not a separate race. They are humans.

Actually God said "there is no other gods except Me", as in present-tense, as in forever because God is always ever-present. He repeats this phrase 12 times in the bible. When God repeats Himself it isn't just to hear Himself talk.

“Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth! For I Am God, and there is no other. (Isa 45:22)

What Mormons don't want to address is, the phrasing used in those various verses which describe the Lord creating EVERYTHING in the universe. Why? Because they conveniently tag onto the end of that statement of the Lord of All, that He is just a god "for us". This would eliminate other 'gods' being in existence in this universe, or, God is a liar. So do they believe that there are other universes which have their own Mormon gods? They would have to. So obviously this Mormon god's jurisdiction would have to be within this universe. But too many don't believe that.

You should try reading the book of Mormon because you clearly don't understand.

 

[tickingclocker]

You should try reading the book of Mormon because you clearly don't understand.

I have read it. Now I understand all too well for exactly what it is. A fabricated lie. That's why I left mormonism, being unable to lie to myself any longer like I saw (and see) Mormons have to do every day.

 

[tickingclocker]

Calling Prophet Joseph Smith a con man is like calling Abraham a con man

How so? Abraham was never well-known as a con-man in every town he... eventually was forced out of (sometimes on a rail). Abraham was known as an upright, God-fearing man, fair-minded and humble.

 

[tickingclocker]

....So what do you think would happen to these disgusting men if the whole scam started to go wrong?....

But it never did. Did it? It became a cash "rest home" for them, even when the LDS scrammed to Utah. Every one of them waited until they were old and destitute (as con-men usually end up as), and went crawling back to the LDS, hat in hands, to support them until they died. What con man wants to admit he conned people--with religion?? In the strict Victorian age??? Especially since the LDS kept growing? Who WOULDN'T shut their mouths if they saw what they had had a hand in becoming more wealthy so they could eventually siphon off of it when necessary, too! They would have shut their mouths if it hadn't either, knowing they would have been tarred and feathered just like JS was. Saying anything negative would have destroyed all their other cons they had going on after leaving the LDS if they had admitted it was nothing more than a con.

So try again. I understand why you couldn't come up with this scenario, nor why you cannot accept it. You're not a con-man. Try reading a few Con Man's Con websites, and you might begin to get a glimpse into JS's thinking processes.

 

[tickingclocker]

The plates were seen by 3 witnesses who saw an angel bring them the plates. They were able to lift them up and turn over the leaves etc.. Then 8 people saw the plates, but no angel. They too were able to lift them and turn over the leaves and they all testify that they existed because they saw them and hefted them.

Now here is the interesting thing about these 11 men. Not one of these men, though many were excommunicated from the church, has ever denied seeing the golden plates. Isn't that interesting that JS would bring these men in on the big scam, sell thousands of BOM, give these men nothing, and then excommunicate them and throw them out without getting nothing, but yet not one has come forward to expose the scam. But not 1 has come forth to expose JS and the real story behind the BOM. Don't you think that is interesting?

Tell me why not one of these witnesses ever came out with the real story/scam?

What you are telling me is some people swore that the name of Nephi was in a manuscript written by Spaulding. So when the manuscript was found and published, it disappointingly contained no names from it in the BOM, it didn't stop there. So another manuscript was imaginarily created to take into account these false witnesses. It has now been in existence for 180 years. It has never been published, it has never been seen. It has never been read, except for Spaulding reading it to friends. It has never been lifted by up by any witness.

....

You can keep going on these ideas that JS and company plagerized the BOM, but they all lead to a dead end. There is nobody that has come forth to expose this scam, and there was lots of people that participated in the early Mormon church and the bringing forth of the BOM. Certainly, some disgruntled, excommunicated, thrown-out scammer, that had been slighted by JS would have stepped forward and exposed the con.

I will tell you why I think no scammer has stepped forward to expose the scam: It is because it was not a scam in the first place. Pretty simple. JS really did talk to Jesus and received information from him. Jesus sent Moroni to give JS the gold plates and JS then translated the plates into a complex 531 page religious/historical book, that swept accross the U.S. and within approximately 10 years, JS was hailed as a modern Moses type prophet, with 30,000+ people at his side, and willing to give up their lives for their testimony that JS was a true prophet of God. With the help of Jesus, JS put together a unique American Christian church that immediately started to go to the entire world, starting in Canada and England and the Hawaiin Islands and to the Indian nations of North America. Today there are nearly 16,000,000 members and we are sending missionaries to over 160 nations of the world. The BOM is in the top ten books in the world, with distributions of over 150,000,000 copies to over 110 languages.

Read Math. 7:15-17: This scripture says to watch out for false prophets. The way you can tell if they are false or not is by their accomplishments or their fruit. For a bad tree will not bring forth good fruit and a good tree will not bring forth bad fruit. So look at what JS accomplished and has accomplished in the way of bringing forth good fruit. (remember he only had about 13 years to accomplish all that he did). If you were at all honest you would be impressed. When you are tutored by Jesus Christ, you can do anything, and he proved it, under great pursecution from the moment he told about the gold plates, the pursection was relentless, until he was murdered by an army unit that was called up to protect him by the governor of Illinois.

Today, in the state of Illinois, that killed him and thought they got rid of the Mormons, there are 2 exquisite Mormon temples. There are 150 temples operating, 16 under construction, and 11 just announced to be under construciton.
JS fruit just keeps coming, and it is speeding up as the days go by, because it is important to keep the pace in order that all men will have the opportunity to hear about Jesus Christ before the second coming of Jesus Christ.

All of this is done for the glory of God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ.

It's all conjecture. There is no proof anywhere that any of this entire story ever happened. No archaeology, no other historically corresponding records, no social cultural clues---its not even remotely mentioned in the entire bible! Just as much as you, whether you know it or not, the world only has JS's words that any of this ever happened.

How could these "witnesses" deny seeing these "golden plates" when they all claimed to have seen them in their "mind's eye"? That would be a lie if they had said they had "seen" them when they hadn't. If they didn't see them physically, there was essentially nothing to refute. Pretty easy. That's the con-man's code in action, there! IF there was anything, which I sincerely doubt, it could have easily been a case of mass hypnosis or wishful thinking. JS was known to dabble in the occultist arts, after all. And what con-man doesn't want to believe a con will be successful?

"So where does that leave us? Until 'manuscript found' is actually 'found', we have a made up manuscript, with made up sayings, and made up names taken from the BOM."
---No, we have a made up fictional story, possibly lifted from a fictional story line, with made up names from someone's imagination.

I think, after what I've seen and heard, that the only one the LDS promotes in their temples--and anywhere else... is the LDS. Not Jesus Christ. Every LDS missionary I've ever encountered encouraged people to join the LDS, not you can be saved today because Jesus loves you! Which message should be more critical to those they are supposed to be sharing "Jesus Christ" with? Join our church? Or be saved today through faith in Jesus Christ! It never fails to be: join our church. And you know that is exactly how it goes down every time. Church membership cannot save anyone, Peter. So why do they promote it so heavily?

The Book of Mormon is among the top 10 books---in the world????? Who fed you that whale of a super-sized whopper!?!?
That's not what it says. You are hoping against hope by combining two verses to support your own favored agenda. THE BIBLE says you can tell a false prophet by their prophecies, if even one fails, they are a false prophet, and don't bother with them. There are 8 BILLION people in this world. By your own mouth, only 16 million bother with this false prophet? Why? If he's such a shining example of prophethood? (And LDS membership numbers are iffy, considering how they are manipulated.) The bible is VERY CLEAR about prophecies from God. He doesn't speak lightly or off-the-cuff. When He says something will happen, it WILL. He doesn't surround His prophecies with "buts or ifs" either.

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. (Deut 18:20-22)

When all this comes true - and it surely will - then they will know that a prophet has been among them. (Ezek 33:33)

For PROPHECY came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Pet 1:21)

"Remember the former things long past, for I Am God, and there is no other; I Am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done… “ (Isa 46:9, 10)

 

[fatboys]

It's all conjecture. There is no proof anywhere that any of this entire story ever happened. No archaeology, no other historically corresponding records, no social cultural clues---its not even remotely mentioned in the entire bible! Just as much as you, whether you know it or not, the world only has JS's words that any of this ever happened.

How could these "witnesses" deny seeing these "golden plates" when they all claimed to have seen them in their "mind's eye"? That would be a lie if they had said they had "seen" them when they hadn't. If they didn't see them physically, there was essentially nothing to refute. Pretty easy. That's the con-man's code in action, there! IF there was anything, which I sincerely doubt, it could have easily been a case of mass hypnosis or wishful thinking. JS was known to dabble in the occultist arts, after all. And what con-man doesn't want to believe a con will be successful?

"So where does that leave us? Until 'manuscript found' is actually 'found', we have a made up manuscript, with made up sayings, and made up names taken from the BOM."
---No, we have a made up fictional story, possibly lifted from a fictional story line, with made up names from someone's imagination.

I think, after what I've seen and heard, that the only one the LDS promotes in their temples--and anywhere else... is the LDS. Not Jesus Christ. Every LDS missionary I've ever encountered encouraged people to join the LDS, not you can be saved today because Jesus loves you! Which message should be more critical to those they are supposed to be sharing "Jesus Christ" with? Join our church? Or be saved today through faith in Jesus Christ! It never fails to be: join our church. And you know that is exactly how it goes down every time. Church membership cannot save anyone, Peter. So why do they promote it so heavily?

The Book of Mormon is among the top 10 books---in the world????? Who fed you that whale of a super-sized whopper!?!?
That's not what it says. You are hoping against hope by combining two verses to support your own favored agenda. THE BIBLE says you can tell a false prophet by their prophecies, if even one fails, they are a false prophet, and don't bother with them. There are 8 BILLION people in this world. By your own mouth, only 16 million bother with this false prophet? Why? If he's such a shining example of prophethood? (And LDS membership numbers are iffy, considering how they are manipulated.) The bible is VERY CLEAR about prophecies from God. He doesn't speak lightly or off-the-cuff. When He says something will happen, it WILL. He doesn't surround His prophecies with "buts or ifs" either.

But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in My name that I have not commanded him to speak, or who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the LORD has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the LORD has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him. (Deut 18:20-22)

When all this comes true - and it surely will - then they will know that a prophet has been among them. (Ezek 33:33)

For PROPHECY came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. (2 Pet 1:21)

"Remember the former things long past, for I Am God, and there is no other; I Am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done… “ (Isa 46:9, 10)

They didn't lift them with their minds eye. They didn't turn the leafs with their minds eye. NONE of them ever denied it even though some were excommunicated. We don't need the archeology or proof the way you want. Don't you get it. It is no different than your faith in the bible. There is no proof.

 

[Daniel Marsh]

Can you show where Joseph Smith made any money off of this?

We are in the church age, not the end of days yet.

Matthew 24

Matthew 24New International Version (NIV)

The Destruction of the Temple and Signs of the End Times
24 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”

4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’[a] spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.

22 “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Messiah!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time.

26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the wilderness,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever there is a carcass, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the distress of those days

“‘the sun will be darkened,
and the moon will not give its light;
the stars will fall from the sky,
and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’
30 “Then will appear the sign of the Son of Man in heaven. And then all the peoples of the earth[c] will mourn when they see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven, with power and great glory.[d] 31 And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.

32 “Now learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. 33 Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it[e] is near, right at the door. 34 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened. 35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

The Day and Hour Unknown
36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son,[f] but only the Father. 37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 38 For in the days before the flood, people were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, up to the day Noah entered the ark; 39 and they knew nothing about what would happen until the flood came and took them all away. That is how it will be at the coming of the Son of Man. 40 Two men will be in the field; one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding with a hand mill; one will be taken and the other left.

42 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know on what day your Lord will come. 43 But understand this: If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. 44 So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.

45 “Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom the master has put in charge of the servants in his household to give them their food at the proper time? 46 It will be good for that servant whose master finds him doing so when he returns. 47 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 48 But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’ 49 and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards. 50 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. 51 He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25New International Version (NIV)

The Parable of the Ten Virgins
25 “At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. 2 Five of them were foolish and five were wise. 3 The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them. 4 The wise ones, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps. 5 The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.

6 “At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’

7 “Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps. 8 The foolish ones said to the wise, ‘Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.’

9 “‘No,’ they replied, ‘there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.’

10 “But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.

11 “Later the others also came. ‘Lord, Lord,’ they said, ‘open the door for us!’

12 “But he replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you.’

13 “Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

The Parable of the Bags of Gold
14 “Again, it will be like a man going on a journey, who called his servants and entrusted his wealth to them. 15 To one he gave five bags of gold, to another two bags, and to another one bag,[a] each according to his ability. Then he went on his journey. 16 The man who had received five bags of gold went at once and put his money to work and gained five bags more. 17 So also, the one with two bags of gold gained two more. 18 But the man who had received one bag went off, dug a hole in the ground and hid his master’s money.

19 “After a long time the master of those servants returned and settled accounts with them. 20 The man who had received five bags of gold brought the other five. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with five bags of gold. See, I have gained five more.’

21 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

22 “The man with two bags of gold also came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘you entrusted me with two bags of gold; see, I have gained two more.’

23 “His master replied, ‘Well done, good and faithful servant! You have been faithful with a few things; I will put you in charge of many things. Come and share your master’s happiness!’

24 “Then the man who had received one bag of gold came. ‘Master,’ he said, ‘I knew that you are a hard man, harvesting where you have not sown and gathering where you have not scattered seed. 25 So I was afraid and went out and hid your gold in the ground. See, here is what belongs to you.’

26 “His master replied, ‘You wicked, lazy servant! So you knew that I harvest where I have not sown and gather where I have not scattered seed? 27 Well then, you should have put my money on deposit with the bankers, so that when I returned I would have received it back with interest.

28 “‘So take the bag of gold from him and give it to the one who has ten bags. 29 For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them. 30 And throw that worthless servant outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’

The Sheep and the Goats
31 “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34 “Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35 For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36 I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38 When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39 When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’

40 “The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’

41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42 For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43 I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’

44 “They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’

45 “He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

 

[tickingclocker]

They didn't lift them with their minds eye. They didn't turn the leafs with their minds eye. NONE of them ever denied it even though some were excommunicated. We don't need the archeology or proof the way you want. Don't you get it. It is no different than your faith in the bible. There is no proof.

Didn't JS once claim that God told him no one could see the plates except him or they would die?? Isn't that why he first "translated" them from behind a curtain? Then how could they have "seen and handled the plates" as you claim. Or is that story exactly that, too? An elaborate story, changed whenever the mood suited and referred to as "revelation".

And just why did these cohorts [claim to] see and handle these mythical plates, anyway? Because they couldn't quite believe JS and his con-man's tale, and they..... NEEDED PROOF that they existed?? Did God generously capitulate all of a sudden, and concede to their FAITHLESS request to DEMAND PROOF? And JS gave it to them--and they didn't all die on the spot as he first warned?? Nothing more than part of the whole imagined tale based upon JS's lie of epic proportions.

God offers proof of His glory, existence and love for this world each and every day. I don't have to seek it out "with my mind's eye" either. It's right there in front of everyone, for all to witness. Why wouldn't it be?

 

[tickingclocker]

.... Furthermore, there is no original Book of Mormon either - the golden plates have never been seen. So it's a matter of who you believe.....

JS's original "translated" handwritten manuscript has never been revealed to the world to examine either. How utterly convenient for them to have "lost" that, too. LOST IT??? The "most important, most pure book in the world", and they.... LOSE it??? JS didn't think much of his "treasure", did he? Sounds more like he hid the damning evidence--against him.