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LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

ToBeLoved

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OK, it was not lost to the entire world.

But, I believe I can say that 99% of monolingual Americans did not know, and 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% of normal, non-academic, monolingual Americans knew nothing of the people of the Yucatan pennisula, reguardless of de Landa's book (the earliest time I found published in English was 1937, I can't be sure, but at least way after JS).

So sorry to disappoint you for my immaturity, but one day the evidence will be piled up so high that it will be conclusive that Jesus did visit the America's just after his resurrection. There is some evidence today, but tommorrow is another day for discovery.

Just like it took such an immense pile of evidence that the Smithsonian Institute finally had to begrudgingly, kicking and screaming, let go of their out-dated notion that all peoples that inhabited the America's came from over the Bering Straight chasing the wooley mammoth. Finally with a bitter, bitter taste in their mouths they admitted that people came here from over the seas also, just like JS said back in 1829, 30 years before the Smithsonian was even started. And from 1829 until around 2000, JS was laughed at by the scientific community for saying that people came here by ship.

So, the question is: when it happens, and the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did visit the Americas, will that give you any reason to re-evanluate the BOM? Since it is only in the BOM that we read with confidence that Jesus came to the Americas?
I can only answer for myself with a big 'no'. JS has no truth that God has revealed to him, God let JS errors be known to all the world to expose his religion as a fraud. And JS died, just as God said that false prophets would die claiming their own words to be the words of the Most High.
 
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dzheremi

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OK, it was not lost to the entire world.

But, I believe I can say that 99% of monolingual Americans did not know, and 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999% of normal, non-academic, monolingual Americans knew nothing of the people of the Yucatan pennisula, reguardless of de Landa's book (the earliest time I found published in English was 1937, I can't be sure, but at least way after JS).

Okay. My point is that it is wrong to say that this stuff was hidden or secret or whatever. Certainly the people living in the area of the monuments in places like Palenque and elsewhere knew about their existence, and knew that they related to their own history (which is unrelated to the history that the BOM makes up for them), even if they couldn't necessarily read the script (since it wasn't until the days of Knorozov, Proskuriakov, et al. that people even began to recognize that it was a writing system, and abandoned the earlier ideas that it was purely pictorial). And everyone who had read de Landa would've known something of them, too, since he wrote about the pre-Columbian civilizations of the Yucatan as he encountered them centuries before Joseph Smith ever lived.

So sorry to disappoint you for my immaturity, but one day the evidence will be piled up so high that it will be conclusive that Jesus did visit the America's just after his resurrection. There is some evidence today, but tommorrow is another day for discovery.

There is no evidence today, and no reasonable expectation of evidence tomorrow, either. No one is going to say that it could never happen (since we can't prove a negative), but it has been sufficiently explored and found to be utterly baseless, so the reality is that we're both going to wait and see, but you'll be the only one of the two of us who is waiting for positive affirmation of something that there is no reason to suspect ever occurred.

Just like it took such an immense pile of evidence that the Smithsonian Institute finally had to begrudgingly, kicking and screaming, let go of their out-dated notion that all peoples that inhabited the America's came from over the Bering Straight chasing the wooley mammoth. Finally with a bitter, bitter taste in their mouths they admitted that people came here from over the seas also, just like JS said back in 1829, 30 years before the Smithsonian was even started. And from 1829 until around 2000, JS was laughed at by the scientific community for saying that people came here by ship.

If you are following the argument I've made throughout this thread, you'll know that it's not "just like" this situation at all. The naturalists at the Smithsonian changed their previous model based on evidence that seafaring peoples came to the Americas much earlier than had been previously suggested, not based on a religious text that tells a story with zero evidence behind it, nor the hope or claim that evidence to substantiate it would be just around the corner, someday. Science doesn't do "eventual" evidence. Science does actual evidence that points to further avenues for future study. The trouble for the Mormon narrative is that it doesn't have any, so it can't progress, only keep coming up with new ideas of how things might be if we twist what is out there in order to fit the Mormon narrative, all the while promising that one day the real, incontrovertible evidence will show up. I am not interested in that in the slightest, and I'm sure the Smithsonian isn't, either (and they probably don't appreciate your perversion of their completely scientifically-acceptable, evidence-based reevaluation of previous theories, either; science is not like politics, where changing your mind about something you once believed makes you a 'flip-flopper' and untrustworthy...it's a sign of progress and not being beholden to dogmatism).

So, the question is: when it happens, and the evidence is overwhelming that Jesus did visit the Americas, will that give you any reason to re-evaluate the BOM? Since it is only in the BOM that we read with confidence that Jesus came to the Americas?

I can't really answer the question as asked, because it's not a question of "when" it happens. I think a better question would be: if such evidence were to appear, would Mormon pseudo-scholars be willing to submit it before relevant disinterested non-LDS scientific authorities, so as to have it evaluated properly? Because they have not shown much willingness to do so, perhaps with some justification given past events where they have been shown to be duped with some pretty horrific consequences, like the Mark Hofmann/salamander letter scandal and bombings.

Again, just admit you're making purely faith-based claims and none of this is a problem.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Okay. My point is that it is wrong to say that this stuff was hidden or secret or whatever. Certainly the people living in the area of the monuments in places like Palenque and elsewhere knew about their existence, and knew that they related to their own history (which is unrelated to the history that the BOM makes up for them), even if they couldn't necessarily read the script (since it wasn't until the days of Knorozov, Proskuriakov, et al. that people even began to recognize that it was a writing system, and abandoned the earlier ideas that it was purely pictorial). And everyone who had read de Landa would've known something of them, too, since he wrote about the pre-Columbian civilizations of the Yucatan as he encountered them centuries before Joseph Smith ever lived.



There is no evidence today, and no reasonable expectation of evidence tomorrow, either. No one is going to say that it could never happen (since we can't prove a negative), but it has been sufficiently explored and found to be utterly baseless, so the reality is that we're both going to wait and see, but you'll be the only one of the two of us who is waiting for positive affirmation of something that there is no reason to suspect ever occurred.



If you are following the argument I've made throughout this thread, you'll know that it's not "just like" this situation at all. The naturalists at the Smithsonian changed their previous model based on evidence that seafaring peoples came to the Americas much earlier than had been previously suggested, not based on a religious text that tells a story with zero evidence behind it, nor the hope or claim that evidence to substantiate it would be just around the corner, someday. Science doesn't do "eventual" evidence. Science does actual evidence that points to further avenues for future study. The trouble for the Mormon narrative is that it doesn't have any, so it can't progress, only keep coming up with new ideas of how things might be if we twist what is out there in order to fit the Mormon narrative, all the while promising that one day the real, incontrovertible evidence will show up. I am not interested in that in the slightest, and I'm sure the Smithsonian isn't, either (and they probably don't appreciate your perversion of their completely scientifically-acceptable, evidence-based reevaluation of previous theories, either; science is not like politics, where changing your mind about something you once believed makes you a 'flip-flopper' and untrustworthy...it's a sign of progress and not being beholden to dogmatism).



I can't really answer the question as asked, because it's not a question of "when" it happens. I think a better question would be: if such evidence were to appear, would Mormon pseudo-scholars be willing to submit it before relevant disinterested non-LDS scientific authorities, so as to have it evaluated properly? Because they have not shown much willingness to do so, perhaps with some justification given past events where they have been shown to be duped with some pretty horrific consequences, like the Mark Hofmann/salamander letter scandal and bombings.

Again, just admit you're making purely faith-based claims and none of this is a problem.

Great post. Enjoyed reading it.


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Peter1000

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Okay. My point is that it is wrong to say that this stuff was hidden or secret or whatever. Certainly the people living in the area of the monuments in places like Palenque and elsewhere knew about their existence, and knew that they related to their own history (which is unrelated to the history that the BOM makes up for them), even if they couldn't necessarily read the script (since it wasn't until the days of Knorozov, Proskuriakov, et al. that people even began to recognize that it was a writing system, and abandoned the earlier ideas that it was purely pictorial). And everyone who had read de Landa would've known something of them, too, since he wrote about the pre-Columbian civilizations of the Yucatan as he encountered them centuries before Joseph Smith ever lived.



There is no evidence today, and no reasonable expectation of evidence tomorrow, either. No one is going to say that it could never happen (since we can't prove a negative), but it has been sufficiently explored and found to be utterly baseless, so the reality is that we're both going to wait and see, but you'll be the only one of the two of us who is waiting for positive affirmation of something that there is no reason to suspect ever occurred.



If you are following the argument I've made throughout this thread, you'll know that it's not "just like" this situation at all. The naturalists at the Smithsonian changed their previous model based on evidence that seafaring peoples came to the Americas much earlier than had been previously suggested, not based on a religious text that tells a story with zero evidence behind it, nor the hope or claim that evidence to substantiate it would be just around the corner, someday.so it can't progress, only keep coming up with new ideas of how things might be if we twist what is out there in order to fit the Mormon narrative, all the while promising that one day the real, incontrovertible evidence will show up. I am not interested in that in the slightest, and I'm sure the Smithsonian isn't, either (and they probably don't appreciate your perversion of their completely scientifically-acceptable, evidence-based reevaluation of previous theories, either; science is not like politics, where changing your mind about something you once believed makes you a 'flip-flopper' and untrustworthy...it's a sign of progress and not being beholden to dogmatism).



I can't really answer the question as asked, because it's not a question of "when" it happens. I think a better question would be: if such evidence were to appear, would Mormon pseudo-scholars be willing to submit it before relevant disinterested non-LDS scientific authorities, so as to have it evaluated properly? Because they have not shown much willingness to do so, perhaps with some justification given past events where they have been shown to be duped with some pretty horrific consequences, like the Mark Hofmann/salamander letter scandal and bombings.

Again, just admit you're making purely faith-based claims and none of this is a problem.
If it was unknown by most of the people of the world and especially mono-linguistic Americans, I can say that in a way it was lost or hidden or unknown. That is why Stephens 2 volume book made such a splash when he published his explorations with pictures of the Yucatan Pennisula in 1941-43.

Certainly the people that lived in the area know about their existence, but they know very little about their ancient history because the vast majority, maybe all can not read the written language. And how are you to make such a bold statement that the BOM doesn't at least touch on some of their ancient history? No body knows a lot, even today. You realize that only about 5% of the Central American area has been excavated for archeological reasons. So I can't say scientifically that their ancient history is part of the BOM any more than you can say that there is no way that under the 95% of Central Am. that there will be no scientific evidence uncovered to prove that their ancient history is part of the BOM.

You are right, I am going to be patient and wait until there is enough evidence that has been uncovered to show that Jesus did come to the Americas. There is some evidences today.
http://www.bastison.net/RESSOURCES/Farce/57_Jones_Jesus.pdf

You say: Science doesn't do "eventual" evidence. Science does actual evidence that points to further avenues for future study. The trouble for the Mormon narrative is that it doesn't have any.

Ask Peter Higgs if science doesn't look for eventual evidence. Science also postulates when there is lack of evidence. For instance the first cell that was formed was neither seen or been duplicated, but yet the theory of evolution by scientist Charles Darwin has been confirmed, they say.
The interesting thing about the Mormon narrative is that it has confirmed many rediculous things that JS said in the BOM. I listed a few a while ago, but it made no difference to you.

You say: science is not like politics

Are you kidding. Bring to the Smithsonian Institute any idea other than what their agenda calls for and you will be run out of town and tarred and feathered along the way. Just ask any scientist that has had a different idea about a subject that has lost his job, been black-listed and left out to rot. Scientists are out for the money these days, truth has little to do with anything. As long as you can prove to your money supporters what they want to hear, you keep your job. Go contrary and you lose your job. Especially government scientists and college professors. You should know that I am right. Belief in God is out, atheism is in. Genesis is out, Darwin is in.

That's why I say that the Smithsonian had to finally change their view on America being discovered by ship long, long before Columbus. One of the reasons they begrudgingly gave way was that the BOM, which they hate, told of people coming to the Americas by ship from the Jerusalem area. There is plenty of history with the Smithsonian to know that they hated like heck to make the announcement of their change in how ancient America was populated. I will give you another for instance. Any thing that comes to the attention of the Smithsonian in regards to ancient Hebrew artifacs from ancient America, is immediately tossed out as a hoax. There is no scientist that would dare say the word Hebrew to an official at the Institute. Why? Because the BOM and JS said it was Hebrews that came accross the ocean in a ship. So anything Hebrew is anathema. And there is plenty of evidence that Hebrews were in ancient America, just like JS said.

You say: Again, just admit you're making purely faith-based claims and none of this is a problem.

This is a faith based claim. Just like the bible. It is by faith that we believe that when the bible says that Moses took 2,000,000 people and drug them from Egypt to Israel and it took 40 years to do it. We believe it even though there is not one piece of evidence that Moses ever lived or that 2,000,000 people ever crossed from Egypt to Jerusalem. We believe it by faith. We wait patiently for scientific evidence to come forward to confirm his existence, but we still believe the bible today, because of our faith.

The same thing with the BOM people. We believe that Nephi existed even though there is not one piece of evidence that he existed. We believe it by faith. We look forward to a day when scientific evidence will come forward to confirm the BOM completely, but we believe it today because of our faith.
 
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ToBeLoved

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This is a faith based claim. Just like the bible. It is by faith that we believe that when the bible says that Moses took 2,000,000 people and drug them from Egypt to Israel and it took 40 years to do it. We believe it even though there is not one piece of evidence that Moses ever lived or that 2,000,000 people ever crossed from Egypt to Jerusalem. We believe it by faith. We wait patiently for scientific evidence to come forward to confirm his existence, but we still believe the bible today, because of our faith.
.

Actually there is documentation from Egypt that documents much of what happened with the Israelite's. You didn't research your claim.

Secondly, it didn't take 40 years in the desert, God kept that generation in the desert. Read the Bible to understand what happened.

The major problem why people don't believe posts is they are not researched. When statements are made or opinions and there is no documentation that is credible it is a dead giveaway it is opinion.

Maybe Mormons should provide proof. You know most of us check these opinions and not having accurate information or stating something as fact that is not, destroys the persons credibility. People must own that if they are lazy and complacent.

Contrary to Mormon opinion, I check almost every post I reply to for validity or say 'I think ...'

It's not our fault information is poorly presented, unless that is all you have in your religion usually, which very possible.

The accusations against us when we present at least 80 % more documented information is understandable. My motto 'Trust but verify' unless it's repetitive behavior.

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dzheremi

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Peter1000,

Again, please use the quote function properly. It is very easy to do. Simply wrap whatever text you want in quote tags by holding down your left mouse button and dragging it across the desired text so that it is highlighted, release the mouse button at the end of the section you wish to quote, then press the "+" button directly above the reply box (it's in between the button that looks like film and the one that looks like a camera), and select "quote" from the resulting drop-down menu. It's much easier to read and respond to replies that use this built-in functionality of the message board, because as it is your reply is not formatted correctly, which makes more work for me if I want to quote from it in my subsequent reply to you.

If it was unknown by most of the people of the world and especially mono-linguistic Americans, I can say that in a way it was lost or hidden or unknown. That is why Lloyds 2 volume book made such a splash when he published his explorations with pictures of the Yucatan Pennisula in 1942.

Do you mean John Lloyd Stephens, author of Incidents of Travel in Central America, Chiapas and Yucatán and Incidents of Travel in Yucatán? Those were published in 1841 and 1843, respectively, not 1942 (I'm guessing this was a typo, but maybe you're referring to some other work I don't know about). I did not include these initially, as I thought it would be better to focus on what was known before Joseph Smith rather than in his day. But still these are proof that even in Joseph's day, within about a decade of the publication of the BOM (1830, if I recall correctly), much knowledge was around about the actual inhabitants of the Yucatan and their sites. From what I have read, Stephens and his traveling partner (his name escapes me, but he did the famous illustrations of the sites) visited something like 40+ Mayan sites in Central America in 1841, so again...hidden, secret, etc. don't really seem like words that are appropriate to use when talking about the Mesoamerican sites, though I will grant that we know a heck of a lot more about them (and have identified more of them, period) than was known at that time.

Still, this is all kind of dancing around the core subject, as none of these accounts (or earlier accounts by de Landa and others) validate anything in the BOM.

Certainly the people that lived in the area know about their existence, but they know very little about their ancient history because the vast majority, maybe all can not read the written language. And how are you to make such a bold statement that the BOM doesn't at least touch on some of their ancient history?

Because we can read a lot of the writings now, and they don't contain anything that matches or resembles the BOM (except perhaps to LDS scholars, who as we've discussed are not involved in scholarship in the first place).

Also, I don't want to sound paternalistic, but you do realize that when the Spanish came, they suppressed the old writing system, not the language, right? So the Mayans were forced to learn Latin script and Spanish, but never lost their language and hence never lost their history entirely. They were cut off over time from the old writings as those who could read and write the old script died out, but they continued to pass along their language and their histories in the new medium of Latin characters, and the Spanish even made Spanish-language copies of some of their origin stories. The oldest known copy of the Popol Vuh, for instance, was written down by Dominican Friar Fr. Francisco Jimenez c. 1701. Here's a page from it, courtesy of Wikipedia:

Popol_vuh.jpg



The left column is Mayan (Quiche, I'm assuming from what the text says), while the right is Spanish.

No body knows a lot, even today. You realize that only about 5% of the Central American area has been excavated for archeological reasons. So I can't say scientifically that their ancient history is part of the BOM any more than you can say that there is no way that under the 95% of Central Am. that there will be no scientific evidence uncovered to prove that their ancient history is part of the BOM.

Here's the thing, though: You're looking for it. Ask yourself who is more trustworthy: The one who is digging with a preexisting idea of the narrative they are looking to support, or the one who is digging because they are an actual Mayanist and want to discover more of whatever the artifacts have to tell them.

In other words, the percentages are however they are because we haven't gotten to everything yet. Certainly more will be discovered, but if you want to be taken seriously you can't say "surely something in those 95% will prove the BOM!" That's assuming a propos of nothing that there is somehow a link between the BOM and the Mayans. And only LDS will do that, because actual science is not interested in confirming or destroying religious texts.

So no, we are not on equal grounds here. "I" (not me specifically, but...y'know...scientists) have the 5% that has already been excavated and shows nothing of what the BOM claims, and no agenda to make it or any future discovery do so, whereas you have 0% and a definite agenda to make future discoveries connect to the BOM. These are not the same at all.

As I've said before, when you make the claim, you have to back it up. Saying "You can't say that any more than I can!" is not backing anything up.

You are right, I am going to be patient and wait until there is enough evidence that has been uncovered to show that Jesus did come to the Americas. There is some evidences today.
http://www.bastison.net/RESSOURCES/Farce/57_Jones_Jesus.pdf

Not only is a handout from a course at BYU not evidence of anything, but it seems a little strange to be taking it from what appears to be a French-language website on 9/11 conspiracy theories (no, seriously), where it is listed under the subcategory of "Farce", as you can see in the bare link you just posted. Obviously you don't think that the information contained therein is farcical, so why did you link to that?

You say: Science doesn't do "eventual" evidence. Science does actual evidence that points to further avenues for future study. The trouble for the Mormon narrative is that it doesn't have any.

Ask Peter Higgs if science doesn't look for eventual evidence.

He doesn't return my phone calls. :( And the Higgs boson particle discovery was such big news because it was the first known fundamental particle of its kind to be discovered in nature. I'm not a physicist, so I don't actually know what that means, but I do know that it's something that was discovered in nature. As in, it actually exists. It wasn't declared discovered on the hopes that it would one day be there. So, yes, science still doesn't do eventual evidence.

Science also postulates when there is lack of evidence.

Yes, and what's postulated has to be reasonably argued based on what evidence is already present. As there is no evidence for the BOM in the first place, it falls outside of this whole paradigm.

For instance the first cell that was formed was neither seen or been duplicated, but yet the theory of evolution by scientist Charles Darwin has been confirmed, they say.

The theory of evolution does not require a first cell to be discovered in order to be confirmed, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything we're discussing here. See this handy explanation of the non-issue of 'firsts' in relation to evolution (this particular video deals with humans, but can be applied to everything similarly):



The interesting thing about the Mormon narrative is that it has confirmed many rediculous things that JS said in the BOM. I listed a few a while ago, but it made no difference to you.

The narrative itself cannot be taken as evidence of its own historicity. Sorry, but that's no how things work.

You say: science is not like politics
Are you kidding. Bring to the Smithsonian Institute any idea other than what their agenda calls for and you will be run out of town and tarred and feathered along the way. Just ask any scientist that has had a different idea about a subject that has lost his job, been black-listed and left out to rot. Scientists are out for the money these days, truth has little to do with anything. As long as you can prove to your money supporters what they want to hear, you keep your job. Go contrary and you lose your job. Especially government scientists and college professors. You should know that I am right. Belief in God is out, atheism is in. Genesis is out, Darwin is in.

You are dividing my statement into pieces so as to go on an irrelevant tangent here. Please don't do that.

That's why I say that the Smithsonian had to finally change their view on America being discovered by ship long, long before Columbus. One of the reasons they begrudgingly gave way was that the BOM, which they hate, told of people coming to the Americas by ship from the Jerusalem area.

Did the Simthsonian itself list the BOM as a reason why they changed their view, or is that your doing? I have a hard time imagining that the Smithsonian would credit the BOM in this fashion, since they are not in the business of confirming religious texts of any kind. They're a complex of interlinked museums and research centers administered by the U.S. government, which is a secular entity.

There is plenty of history with the Smithsonian to know that they hated like heck to make the announcement of their change in how ancient America was populated. I will give you another for instance. Any thing that comes to the attention of the Smithsonian in regards to ancient Hebrew artifacs from ancient America, is immediately tossed out as a hoax. There is no scientist that would dare say the word Hebrew to an official at the Institute. Why? Because the BOM and JS said it was Hebrews that came accross the ocean in a ship. So anything Hebrew is anathema. And there is plenty of evidence that Hebrews were in ancient America, just like JS said.

Again, the BOM is not to be taken as evidence of its own historicity. You are giving your own book way, way too much credit here, pretending that the Smithsonian is afraid of its claims to the point that "no scientist [...] would dare to say the word Hebrew to an official at the Institute." That's funny, because searching Google for "Smithsonian Institute Hebrew" brings up news articles on the partnering of the Institution with the Hebrew University of Jerusalem on the Einstein Project (in celebration of the centennial of Einstein's Theory of Relativity), the Smithsonian-affiliated National Museum of American Jewish History, and even one result from Google Books from the 1901 board of regents report of the Institution that contains an article titled "Descriptive Catalogue of Objects of Jewish Ceremonial" (p.545 and following). Lots of mentions of Hebrew in there. And these are just on the first page of some four million results.

I think you are massively overstating your case here.

You say: Again, just admit you're making purely faith-based claims and none of this is a problem.

This is a faith based claim. Just like the bible. It is by faith that we believe that when the bible says that Moses took 2,000,000 people and drug them from Egypt to Israel and it took 40 years to do it. We believe it even though there is not one piece of evidence that Moses ever lived or that 2,000,000 people ever crossed from Egypt to Jerusalem. We believe it by faith. We wait patiently for scientific evidence to come forward to confirm his existence, but we still believe the bible today, because of our faith.

Okay. And you do not claim to have evidence that you do not have concerning the historicity of Moses, do you? That's good, if you don't. Now please do the same with the BOM narrative.

The same thing with the BOM people. We believe that Nephi existed even though there is not one piece of evidence that he existed. We believe it by faith. We look forward to a day when scientific evidence will come forward to confirm the BOM completely, but we believe it today because of our faith.

Okay, good. Thank you. I hope subsequent posts from you and other Mormons will acknowledge this reality and stop attempting to mix faith claims with science or pseudo-science.
 
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mmksparbud

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You are right, I am going to be patient and wait until there is enough evidence that has been uncovered to show that Jesus did come to the Americas. There is some evidences today.




This is from your site:

"The hypothesis that started my search, that Christ's "other sheep" would have artwork depicting deliberately marked hands, has led to a remarkable conclusion: Hands (and wrists) with clear holes or marks are depicted in the art as well as the hieroglyphic writings of the Maya of Middle America, dating from within about 200 years of the time of Christ. These hands are associated with Itzamna, a kindly Deity associated with healing and teaching the people. He is shown dying in Mayan art, later to be resurrected. Finally, the Maya await the return of this great resurrected Deity in the notdistant future. [See Jones, 99] "
http://www.bastison.net/RESSOURCES/Farce/57_Jones_Jesus.pdf




The Human Hand in Classic Maya Hieroglyphic Writing
http://www.mesoweb.com/features/boot/Human_Hand.pdf
The Human Hand in Classic Maya Hieroglyphic Writing A total of 45 different signs that depict or include the human hand will be illustrated and discussed below. The first column provides the syllabic or logographic value of the sign, the second (and sometimes third) column provide the so-called T-number, the number as allocated to a hieroglyphic sign by Thompson in his 1962 catalog (amendments follow Grube 1990: Anhang B). In some cases a Z-number is also provided, the number as allocated to a hieroglyphic sign by Zimmerman in his 1956 catalog (based only on hieroglyphic texts from the three codices).
cha T668 Z169"


T1086 represents the celamorphic variant of the cardinal number “two” in the Classic Maya writing system (Thompson 1950: Figure 24, Nos. 8-11). Its most distinctive characteristic is the fist formed by a human hand that is employed as the headdress of the human or supernatural head. In this example (Piedras Negras, Panel 2) it is clearly the left hand that was used to form the fist. However, an example at Yula (Lintel 1: B1) shows a right hand fist.
As discussed above, T668 represented a human fist with the syllabic value cha. I suggested that possibly this value cha was derived through a process of acrophony from the linguistic item chach “handful”. The fist as employed in the celamorphic variant of the cardinal number “two” may have a similar origin; it would explain the inclusion of the fist as the headdress and it would further substantiate the Classic Maya value CHA’ for “two” instead of *KA’ (the Casa Colorada inscription at Chichen Itza in Northern Yucatan employs the syllabic sign ka for the ordinal numeral “second”; ka’ means “two; second, again” in the languages forming the Yucatecan language group) (note 3).


The human hand is a versitile instrument and many different gestures of the hand are included in the hieroglyphic signs as discussed above. There is actually no other writing system invented by man that includes so many variations of the human hand. These different gestures resulted in different syllabic or logographic meanings, but there are also several very similar hand gestures that obtained different values (note the “flat hands” and “raised hands”). Different infixes contribute to identify the different values (note the signs that represent “fists”). A table of twenty-five signs in five categories follows here:
---------------------------------------------------------------


I can copy the text, but the drawings of the hands will not copy. You'll have to look at it. It tells all about the hand symbols and what they mean. Your friend has a very lively imagination in his efforts to force the Mayan hieroglyphics into a depiction of Christ being with the Mayas. Please don't tell me that they got the idea of human sacrifice from Christ---and if He was there--He forgot to tell them to stop that!!
 

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withwonderingawe

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Please don't tell me that they got the idea of human sacrifice from Christ---and if He was there--He forgot to tell them to stop that!!

In 3 Nephi 18 the Lord established the sacrament and it explained it "in remembrance of my body".

At the end of the Book of Mormon story everyone has gone into apostasy so a distorted concept of human sacrifice could be related. They would eat the flesh of their sacrifices, and there are pictures of gods eating flesh. Also pictures of men going through what looks like circumcision, it's a blood letting.
 
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withwonderingawe

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I just have to laugh;

Time to scrap the idea that humans arrived in the Americas by land bridge
Fossils near the Bering Land Bridge show a lifeless area until long after humans hit the Americas.
ANNALEE NEWITZ - 8/11/2016, 12:25 PM

http://arstechnica.com/science/2016...umans-arrived-in-the-americas-by-land-bridge/


....While it may sound improbable that humans could take boats along the coast from Asia, consider that humans arrived in Australia by boat, island hopping from Asia about 50,000 years ago. Boat technology is one of our most ancient inventions, and it would have worked admirably for people who were using the vessels to go short distances along the coast, carrying supplies. Considered in this light, humans reached the Americas partly because they had developed fairly sophisticated transportation technology. The first Americans were maritime peoples who came across the ocean rather than plodding across the land.
 
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dzheremi

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Um...forgive me for being observant, but isn't the LDS narrative reliant on a timeline that puts Nephi and family in Jerusalem c. 600 BC when Lehi is commanded by God to leave for the Americas? The article you linked specifically states "Humans probably did take the Bering Land Bridge to the Americas after 12,500 years ago, but they would have arrived on a continent that was already populated with people who came along the Pacific coast thousands of years before."

In other words, this land was long inhabited by people who probably did cross the Bering Land Bridge to the Americas some ~11,000 years before the LDS narrative states that the BOM patriarchs came to the Americas by boat.

In other other words, this does not support the LDS narrative or the BOM at all.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Um...forgive me for being observant, but isn't the LDS narrative reliant on a timeline that puts Nephi and family in Jerusalem c. 600 BC when Lehi is commanded by God to leave for the Americas? The article you linked specifically states "Humans probably did take the Bering Land Bridge to the Americas after 12,500 years ago, but they would have arrived on a continent that was already populated with people who came along the Pacific coast thousands of years before."

In other words, this land was long inhabited by people who probably did cross the Bering Land Bridge to the Americas some ~11,000 years before the LDS narrative states that the BOM patriarchs came to the Americas by boat.

In other other words, this does not support the LDS narrative or the BOM at all.

Ah but ya forgot those Jaredites they got here sometime shortly after the Tower, however long ago that happened.

What it does is make it possible to hypothesizes that there was such a little group which is found in the Book of Mormon that followed others across the oceans and to the Americas, in boats. They did know the earth had been divided at the time of Peleg. That is assuming we accept the story of Noah and we all belong to the same family.
 
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dzheremi

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Well sure, anything is 'possible' (not plausible) if you're not willing to put a definite timeline to it, but the usefulness or relevance of the claim suffers as a result. Particularly as no group known as Jaredites has ever been substantiated as existing.

If I were to claim that some small group known as...I don't know...the Zeebos came to the Americas at some indeterminate point in the long past via boat, what would you say? It may be a claim (and a claim that I could even say is possible to 'hypothesize' based on the information in that article), but it doesn't really 'mean' anything, because it's so vague as to be applicable to basically any discovery involving ancient people in the Americas and boats, and more importantly there is absolutely zero evidence of a people known as the Zeebos ever existing anywhere at any time. "So what?" would be an entirely appropriate and reasonable response.
 
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Peter1000

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Um...forgive me for being observant, but isn't the LDS narrative reliant on a timeline that puts Nephi and family in Jerusalem c. 600 BC when Lehi is commanded by God to leave for the Americas? The article you linked specifically states "Humans probably did take the Bering Land Bridge to the Americas after 12,500 years ago, but they would have arrived on a continent that was already populated with people who came along the Pacific coast thousands of years before."

In other words, this land was long inhabited by people who probably did cross the Bering Land Bridge to the Americas some ~11,000 years before the LDS narrative states that the BOM patriarchs came to the Americas by boat.

In other other words, this does not support the LDS narrative or the BOM at all.
I believe that the Americas were peopled by coming over the Bering Straights and by ship over the ocean. Smithsonian just had to begrudgingly adjust their model to incorporate people coming by ocean voyage. The BOM talks about 2 groups of people coming to the Americas. 1) we call the Jaredites, science calls them the Olmec, who came to the Americas around the time of the tower of Babel, when God confused the languages and dispursed people. Jesus led a group called the Jaredites, who built 7 barges and were safely brought to the Americas by the ocean. This is actually depicted in the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. A beautiful tapestry in the museum depicts the of the origin of the people of Mexico and shows people coming out of a cave and 9 men on turtles in front of them, which tradition suggests they came here in 9 boats.
I tried to get a picture, but I could not find it.
2) the other group came from Jerusalem aroung 600BC by ship over the ocean. We call these people Nephites and Lamanites. The Lamanites killed off the Nephites around 400AD and Lamanites and science call these people Maya.

The article I linked you to was to show you some interesting evidence that Jesus did come to the Americas, not to prove that people came here also by ocean voyage.
 
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withwonderingawe

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I believe that the Americas were peopled by coming over the Bering Straights and by ship over the ocean. Smithsonian just had to begrudgingly adjust their model to incorporate people coming by ocean voyage. The BOM talks about 2 groups of people coming to the Americas. 1) we call the Jaredites, science calls them the Olmec, who came to the Americas around the time of the tower of Babel, when God confused the languages and dispursed people. Jesus led a group called the Jaredites, who built 7 barges and were safely brought to the Americas by the ocean. This is actually depicted in the National Museum of Anthropology in Mexico City. A beautiful tapestry in the museum depicts the of the origin of the people of Mexico and shows people coming out of a cave and 9 men on turtles in front of them, which tradition suggests they came here in 9 boats.
I tried to get a picture, but I could not find it.
2) the other group came from Jerusalem aroung 600BC by ship over the ocean. We call these people Nephites and Lamanites. The Lamanites killed off the Nephites around 400AD and Lamanites and science call these people Maya.

The article I linked you to was to show you some interesting evidence that Jesus did come to the Americas, not to prove that people came here also by ocean voyage.

Peter, look at my posting 1449
 
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withwonderingawe

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Well sure, anything is 'possible' (not plausible) if you're not willing to put a definite timeline to it, but the usefulness or relevance of the claim suffers as a result. Particularly as no group known as Jaredites has ever been substantiated as existing.

I think you are blinding yourself to the evidence which is there because you do not want to see it. I’ll go through it quickly again without adding in the evidence cause I already did that but then I'll add a few more.

1, The existence of the placement value of zero

North Americans Natives did not have it so why did Joseph assume the people of the Book of Mormon did.

2, The keeping of a calendar with list of kings.

North American Natives didn’t have calendars nor kings, why didn’t he use the word chief?

3, The use of cement in their buildings

North American Natives didn’t build like that at all and were more nomadic. So why did Joseph write about it?

4, The deforestation of a large area of land which happened.

Why would he even mention something like that

5, Population in the millions

Not something Joseph would have known

6 The maritime shipping of goods

North American Natives did not have a shipping industry but the Mayans did.

7, The Olemec and Mayan political system with city states are the same as in the Book of Mormon

8, The names of Kings as Tu and governors as Ku in the Olmec and Mayan and also found in the Book of Mormon

9, The use of gold, copper, iron and bronze something north American Natives would not have known.

The dating of the use of steel is very close to when archeologist believe steel was first produced and it is something they brought with them. Two of the mentions maybe a "literary topos," meaning a stylized literary description and not meant to take literally.

10, A time of a great society with wealth around 200 ad, exactly the same time as in the Book of Mormon. Pearls and fine clothing are mentioned, and a forming of an elite class of leaders.

These two are new

11&12 Massive warfare and human & child sacrifice.

I’m going to post here Mor 4 a description of their warfare which happened around 350 ad and then a description of Aztec warfare about a thousand years later, things didn’t change much.

Mor 4
11 And it is impossible for the tongue to describe, or for man to write a perfect description of the horrible scene of the blood and carnage which was among the people, both of the Nephites and of the Lamanites; and every heart was hardened, so that they delighted in the shedding of blood continually.
14 And they did also march forward against the city Teancum, and did drive the inhabitants forth out of her, and did take many prisoners both women and children, and did offer them up as sacrifices unto their idol gods.
15 And it came to pass that in the three hundred and sixty and seventh year, the Nephites being angry because the Lamanites had sacrificed their women and their children, that they did go against the Lamanites with exceedingly great anger,…. (they lose)

20 And they fled again from before them, and they came to the city Boaz; and there they did stand against the Lamanites with exceeding boldness, insomuch that the Lamanites did not beat them until they had come again the second time.
21 And when they had come the second time, the Nephites were driven and slaughtered with an exceedingly great slaughter; their women and their children were again sacrificed unto idols.


HERE BE CANNIBALS
CANNIBALISM IN MIDDLE AMERICA Marvin Harris, Cannibals and Kings: The Origin of Cultures, Glasgow, 1978, pp. 110-124

Now a description of Aztec warfare;
Since the Aztec armies were thousands of times bigger than those of the Huron or the Tupinamba, they could capture thousands of prisoners in a single battle. In addition to daily sacrifices of small numbers of prisoners and slaves at major and minor shrines, then, mass sacrifices involving hundreds and thousands of victims could be carried out to commemorate special events. The Spanish chroniclers were told, for example, that at the dedication in 1487 of the great pyramid of Tenochtitlán four lines of prisoners stretching for two miles each were sacrificed by a team of executioners who worked night and day for four days. Allotting two minutes per sacrifice, the demographer and historian Sherburne Cook estimated that the number of victims associated with that single event was 14,100. The scale of these rituals could be dismissed as exaggerations were it not for the encounters of Bernal Díaz and Andrés de Tápia with methodically racked and hence easily counted rows of human skulls in the plazas of the Aztec cities. Díaz writes that in the plaza of Xocotlan

there were piles of human skulls so regularly arranged that one could count them, and I estimated them at more than a hundred thousand.

I repeat again there were more than one hundred thousand of them.

Of his encounter with the great skull rack in the centre of Tenochtitlán, Tápia wrote:

The poles were separated from each other by a little less than a vara [approximately a yard’s length], and were crowded with cross sticks from top to bottom, and on each cross stick were five skulls impaled through the temples: and the writer and a certain Gonzalo de Umbría, counted the cross sticks and multiplying by five heads per cross stick from pole to pole, as I said, we found that there were 136 thousand heads.

But that was not all. Tápia also describes two tall towers made entirely out of skulls held together by lime in which there was an uncountable number of crania and jaws....
So intent were the Aztecs on bringing back prisoners to be sacrificed that they would frequently refrain from pressing a military advantage for fear that they would kill too many enemy troops before terms of surrender could be arranged. This tactic cost them dearly in their engagements with Cortés’s troops, who from the Aztec point of view seemed to be irrationally intent upon killing everyone in sight.…” http://www.heretical.com/cannibal/mamerica.html

The Nephites may have felt they fought with boldness but the Lamanites were toying with them.

Going back to Mor 4
“ and did drive the inhabitants forth out of her, and did take many prisoners both women and children, and did offer them up as sacrifices unto their idol gods…

“Mayanists believe that, like the Aztecs, the Maya performed child sacrifice in specific circumstances, most commonly as foundation dedications for temples and other structures. Maya art from the Classic period also depicts the extraction of children’s hearts during the ascension to the throne of the new king, or at the beginnings of the Maya calendar.[18] In one of these cases, Stele 11 in Piedras Negras, Guatemala, a sacrificed boy can be seen. Other scenes of sacrificed boys are visible on jars.”

The natives Americans Joseph knew would not have done anything like this at all.


12, ritual cannibalism

There is no real evidence that North American Natives ever did this ritually, maybe when they were hungry.
http://www.native-languages.org/iaq13.htm

But for the Mayans and Aztec it was a way of life;

Moroni 9:8
8 And the husbands and fathers of those women and children they have slain; and they feed the women upon the flesh of their husbands, and the children upon the flesh of their fathers; and no water, save a little, do they give unto them.

From the same article.
Diego Durán gives us a similar description:

“Once the heart had been wrenched out it was offered to the sun and blood sprinkled toward the solar deity. Imitating the descent of the sun in the west the corpse was toppled down the steps of the pyramid. After the sacrifice the warriors celebrated a great feast with much dancing, ceremonial and cannibalism….

I have been pursuing the fate of the victim’s body in order to establish the point that Aztec cannibalism was not a perfunctory tasting of ceremonial titbits. All edible parts were used in a manner strictly comparable to the consumption of the flesh of domestic animals. The Aztec priests can legitimately be described as ritual slaughterers in a state-sponsored system geared to the production and redistribution of substantial amounts of animal protein in the form of human flesh.”

13, There are some actual hands on geography proofs which Joseph Smith simply could not have known.

Those who have studied the wording of the Book of Mormon carefully have decided that it describes perfectly the old spice trails which caravans would have traveled. He describes traveling down the side of the Red Sea and stopping at a places called Shazer which means a clump of trees where there would be water. Counting the days travel they have found several sites which could fit.

The next place which Lehi names is called Nahom or written in Hebrew as NHM. There is a place just like this on the old spice trail where alters have been found with NHM on them, they date from the exact time period, 600 bc, when Lehi would have been traveling through. Also at this same point there is a turn in the direction of the trail toward the east and in the Book of Mormon Nephi writes “and we did travel nearly eastward from that time forth” he’s spot on!

And another point; here in Nahom is where Ishmael dies and his daughters morn,
1 Nephi 17
34 And it came to pass that Ishmael died, and was buried in the place which was called Nahom.
35 And it came to pass that the daughters of Ishmael did mourn exceedingly, because of the loss of their father,

The root word for Nahom is Naham and means to mourn, see Strongs number 5098

The traditional way of mourning was for the women to wail and sing around the body, the men disappear for a while again something Joseph would not have known.

14, and now we know that other peoples came here by boat and not by foot at all.

The evidence is not built on one big thing, one big sign saying welcome to the land of Nephi. But, it is built on lots of small things which Joseph Smith simply could not have known.

Alma 36
6 Now ye may suppose that this is foolishness in me; but behold I say unto you, that by small and simple things are great things brought to pass; and small means in many instances doth confound the wise.
 
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mmksparbud

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In 3 Nephi 18 the Lord established the sacrament and it explained it "in remembrance of my body".

At the end of the Book of Mormon story everyone has gone into apostasy so a distorted concept of human sacrifice could be related. They would eat the flesh of their sacrifices, and there are pictures of gods eating flesh. Also pictures of men going through what looks like circumcision, it's a blood letting.


To everything God has crested, Satan has come up with an opposite. So with human sacrifice. The sacrificial system was set up right after the fall. I don't know if it was corrupted before the flood or not--but it certainly was after the fall. Many cultures in different parts of the world have distorted the concept of sacrificing to appease an angry god, or to bring rain and food by ending up doing human sacrifice---long before Christ came to this world as our Savior. That has been proved by archeology. Along with this, is the practice of cannibalism. Most of it for the purpose of acquiring the power of the person consumed, not simply for food and usually it was the enemy.
 
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mmksparbud

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Have you never thought about the fact that Satan always mixes truth withy His lies??? That is why God said to stone a false prophet, they twisted His truth with the lies Satan would tell them. No false prophet says lies only----too easy to spot. It is always intertwined with the truth. Satan knows the history of the world. His angles have been there and knows the history of every human ever born. Those countless stories of people having had previous lives, sometimes children talking about other lives. Who told them? Satan's angels knew the person, just as we have guardian angels, Satan has his messengers. He can tell someone today all about a certain, real person that lived 50 years ago, 200, 300, 500, 4,000. He can describe to that little kid in Sri Lanka all about a real live, documented person that lived in Minnesota 135 years ago. So you have many who are led astray by believing in reincarnation.
 
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fatboys

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Have you never thought about the fact that Satan always mixes truth withy His lies??? That is why God said to stone a false prophet, they twisted His truth with the lies Satan would tell them. No false prophet says lies only----too easy to spot. It is always intertwined with the truth. Satan knows the history of the world. His angles have been there and knows the history of every human ever born. Those countless stories of people having had previous lives, sometimes children talking about other lives. Who told them? Satan's angels knew the person, just as we have guardian angels, Satan has his messengers. He can tell someone today all about a certain, real person that lived 50 years ago, 200, 300, 500, 4,000. He can describe to that little kid in Sri Lanka all about a real live, documented person that lived in Minnesota 135 years ago. So you have many who are led astray by believing in reincarnation.
Think about what you are saying. We believe that there was an apostasy. You do not. You believe that Satan can mix lies with truth. We do as well. You believe that your brand of Christianity is correct while others do not believe you are. Others believe that they are correct and think you are way off the right right course. You believe that the bible has all the truth necessary to bring salvation. Others believe the same but believe differently than you do. You do not believe that God reveals his word to man today. That the bible is closed. You do not believe that those responsible for gathering the bible into one book is then correct religion. If you believe that God can preserve his words from the corruption of man then why did God fail to keep his church together with one belief? If Satan wanted to corrupt Mans understanding of Gods word how would you think he would do it? Would he subtly delute the gospel by changing the understanding for example baptism. Would he try make God so confusing and unapproachable as to say he fills the universe but is so small he can dwell I'm our hearts. That God is so perfect that he always has a back up plan unless it is preserving his words held by imperfect corrupt man. Makes sense to me
 
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mmksparbud

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God has preserved His words--it is man that is not interpreting them right---0there's difference. Though there are different interpretations, it is still the same words. You don't believe that they're the same words. We argue over the meaning of a verse. JS not only changes the verse, he adds all sorts of stuff--He has a whole other book --books---totally none of which is in the bible. It's not like he has a different explanation for the same verse---he has added a whole people, and whole different story of Jesus-that He was in America after His resurrection and so on and on. A whole different story from God breathed life into Adam to Adam already existed. His word has been preserved, JS is the apostasy with a whole different story.
 
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fatboys

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God has preserved His words--it is man that is not interpreting them right---0there's difference. Though there are different interpretations, it is still the same words. You don't believe that they're the same words. We argue over the meaning of a verse. JS not only changes the verse, he adds all sorts of stuff--He has a whole other book --books---totally none of which is in the bible. It's not like he has a different explanation for the same verse---he has added a whole people, and whole different story of Jesus-that He was in America after His resurrection and so on and on. A whole different story from God breathed life into Adam to Adam already existed. His word has been preserved, JS is the apostasy with a whole different story.
Let's just say that the bible is what you say it is. Perfect. If it is so perfect why do you believe differently that another Christian church. Why aren't you all on the same page or the same book
 
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