LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[tickingclocker]

You're right - and let me point out a couple of ironies in that whole scenario...

First, they consider Christianity to be apostate from them, yet at the same time they claim to believe in the same Jesus as Christians, and the same Salvation as Christians, and that they themselves are to be rightfully called "Christians" - they want so much to be recognized as "Christians" and have their beliefs seen as being in line with orthodox Christian beliefs but all the while they consider orthodox Christians to be "apostates" and their prophets for decades have spoken out against Christianity. Ironic that they want the apostates to accept them as fellow Christians.

The second irony is that while it kills them to be rejected as Christians by orthodox Christians, the main Mormon Church (the Salt Lake denomination, the largest one) rejects all the other Mormon denominations as being "LDS". They do not recognize the FLDS as "LDS" even though "LDS" is right there in that church's name. They don't recognize the RLDS or the Strangites or any of the other LDS denominations as being legitimately LDS although having some doctrinal differences. They despise the LDS who are still polygamists. They act like they despise polygamy yet they named their flagship and most prestigious university after the biggest polygamist in the history of all the LDS denominations.

And somehow all that irony escapes them.

Spot on, as always.

Now, I have made a decision--because I CAN. I refuse to read any mormon posts. Why bother? It's not like I have any direction from God to measure Christianity against whether mormonism is "true--or not". It's not.

That irony will also elude them, I don't doubt for a second. Because that remains the reality that is mormonism.

 

[Ironhold]

Feel free to point out what you don't agree with in the following quotes of what your prophets and church leaders have said about Christians and Christianity:

Only two sources out of that entire list are considered official; the rest weren't entered into the body of official material.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Only two sources out of that entire list are considered official; the rest weren't entered into the body of official material.

So what's your point? What's your answer to what I actually asked?

 

[Ironhold]

So what's your point? What's your answer to what I actually asked?

That is my point: aside from those two sources, the stuff on your list is regarded as having no more weight than personal opinion. It's not that they're hidden; it's that they're not worth the time of day to really bother with under normal circumstances. They're not even taught.

 

[Sophrosyne]

We don't deny that others are Christian; we just believe that we have a more complete version of everything.

So when your leaders say nobody but mormons are Christian they are lying?

 

[Jane_Doe]

So when your leaders say nobody but mormons are Christian they are lying?

There's a difference between claiming a Christian and having the fullness of Truth.

 

[Sophrosyne]

There's a difference between claiming a Christian and having the fullness of Truth.

yes there is.... because having the fullness of truth doesn't make one a Christian one can know the truth and reject it like mormons do. The facts are that mormons have changed their doctrine, their books, and their leaders have contradicted themselves often enough that only an idiot wouldn't admit that they were wrong at some time and that the "truth" wasn't full enough that it had to be changed.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

That is my point: aside from those two sources, the stuff on your list is regarded as having no more weight than personal opinion. It's not that they're hidden; it's that they're not worth the time of day to really bother with under normal circumstances. They're not even taught.

So are you saying that your church's prophets, leaders, and apostles are wrong in most of those statements? I notice you're not saying that they are wrong. You're implying it, you're saying that what they say is "not scripture", but you're not saying they're wrong or that you disagree with them.

 

[Ironhold]

So are you saying that your church's prophets, leaders, and apostles are wrong in most of those statements?

No, I'm saying that the church recognizes a concept similar to ex cathedra, meaning that we take the time to separate out a leader's personal opinions on a topic from their official pronouncements.

 

[NYCGuy]

No, I'm saying that the church recognizes a concept similar to ex cathedra, meaning that we take the time to separate out a leader's personal opinions on a topic from their official pronouncements.

This is not a correct understanding of Catholic ex cathedra. For Catholics, we have many statements and documents from the Church and Church leaders that are official pronouncements that are not ex cathedra. Ex cathedra is referring to relatively rare instances of Papal infallibility in defining formal dogmas. Non-ex cathedra statements are not regarded as "personal opinions". So what you're saying in reference to your own understanding of Mormon beliefs is not at all similar to how Catholics understand statements from our leaders.

 

[BigDaddy4]

No, I'm saying that the church recognizes a concept similar to ex cathedra, meaning that we take the time to separate out a leader's personal opinions on a topic from their official pronouncements.

LDS dodgeball...

 

[Sophrosyne]

LDS dodgeball...

Big time. It allows them to play both sides of the court telling those outside of their church one thing and their membership another by saying to us that it is an opinion while they themselves take it as doctrine.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

No, I'm saying that the church recognizes a concept similar to ex cathedra, meaning that we take the time to separate out a leader's personal opinions on a topic from their official pronouncements.

Are your prophets, apostles, and church leaders that I quoted right or wrong? Or are you still avoiding answering?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Big time. It allows them to play both sides of the court telling those outside of their church one thing and their membership another by saying to us that it is an opinion while they themselves take it as doctrine.

Exactly.

The point is that whether it's "official" or not, this is what is clearly stated by their apostles and prophets. Notice that not a single mormon is willing to say that they are wrong. They are trying to imply it by saying that these quotes are not "official" and/or "scripture", but they won't come out and say that they are WRONG.

And that's because it's what they really believe to be true. If it weren't, they'd have no problem saying that their apostles and prophets are wrong in these statements.

 

[fatboys]

The thing is, Ironhold likes to get on his soapbox and demand references from "official" sources. At times, he indicates that printed material must have the lds stamp of approval (copyright by lds church) or come from the official lds.org website to be "official". But when really pressed, he and others retreat back to the "if it's not in the 4 standard works, it's not Scripture and we can't be held to it" dodge. Nevermind the fact that the lds church publishes teachings and other material in their teaching manuals or on the lds.org website that are troublesome and are outside of the 4 standard works. So are they teaching false doctrine to their bretheren in those instances? it's quite the show to watch the mental gymnastics at times.

Let me clarify. The doctrines of the church are found in the standard works. Other guidelines can be found form official church information that has to have the seal of approval. It's not that hard to understand. You just want everything that any church leader to be official church doctrine. It is not. It may be one hundred percent correct but means little to our salvation and the basic things we are taught which guide us towards the ultimate goal of returning to our father in heaven. Your so intent on finding fault that when we say it was thier opinion or someone's speculation you guys have a tantrum. The basic doctrines again are found in the standard works which include the bible the Book of Mormon the Doctrine and covenants and the Pearl of great price. Again there are other guidelines we follow by church leaders which help focus on the basic laws and works which are necessary for us to prove to ourselves that we are worthy to return to God. Not every word from the mouth of a living prophet is scripture or words from God.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Let me clarify. The doctrines of the church are found in the standard works. Other guidelines can be found form official church information that has to have the seal of approval. It's not that hard to understand. You just want everything that any church leader to be official church doctrine. It is not. It may be one hundred percent correct but means little to our salvation and the basic things we are taught which guide us towards the ultimate goal of returning to our father in heaven. Your so intent on finding fault that when we say it was thier opinion or someone's speculation you guys have a tantrum. The basic doctrines again are found in the standard works which include the bible the Book of Mormon the Doctrine and covenants and the Pearl of great price. Again there are other guidelines we follow by church leaders which help focus on the basic laws and works which are necessary for us to prove to ourselves that we are worthy to return to God. Not every word from the mouth of a living prophet is scripture or words from God.

"That's not what we teach" is a perpetuated lie when it can be found in a teaching resource or on your official site, regardless if it is doctrine or not. Several ex-mormons have provided such information, yet it is still denied that it's not doctrine or taught.

The conclusion would be that your church teaches false doctrine.

 

[Sophrosyne]

Exactly.

The point is that whether it's "official" or not, this is what is clearly stated by their apostles and prophets. Notice that not a single mormon is willing to say that they are wrong. They are trying to imply it by saying that these quotes are not "official" and/or "scripture", but they won't come out and say that they are WRONG.

And that's because it's what they really believe to be true. If it weren't, they'd have no problem saying that their apostles and prophets are wrong in these statements.

It is all about damage control the LDS church is more like politics that Christianity.

 

[Peter1000]

I don't expect any more of a response than something like this. Mormons are woefully ignorant about the history of Christianity and the Church - they are kept ignorant by their handlers in their religion in order to be fed the "apostasy" myth, in turn to bolster the later myths in Mormonism (e.g. the various visions and "revelations" of Joseph Smith, etc.).

Mormons will never give up on insisting that there was an apostasy because without that their whole religion falls apart. Their occult religion relies on there having been an apostasy so that Joseph Smith could receive secrets from God (those "secrets" being freemasonry, basically).

Boy oh Boy

 

[Peter1000]

This appears to be exactly right. And the "proof of the pudding" for me is that whenever I try to get from Mormons, including even ones who are very well versed in the teachings of their faith, when it was in history that this so-called "Apostasy" occurred or what event marked the Apostasy...they usually can't say. That's strange, isn't it, considering that this is the basis for there being such a thing as a restored church at a later time (just as you noted in your post)?


It's a mistake to go that far, however. Masonry is not a religion, and Smith was only marginally connected to the fraternity. A number of symbols and gestures and other externals seem clearly to have been borrowed by him for his new religion, though. The doctrines and the storyline of the Book of Mormon appear to have been purloined from other sources.

Let me be the very first Mormon that believes in the apostacy tell you when it all began. BTW, Jesus was the first witness to JS that the apostacy was a real event, so it is very reliable. The second witness that JS received about the apostacy was from the word of God or the bible itself. Read the following bible verses and you will know that what I say is true.
2 Thes. 2:1-3 & 7
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.

So during Paul's lifetime, the mystery of iniquity (the apostacy) was already at work. That is when it started, shortly after the ascension of Jesus. Simon, and Marcion, and many, many others almost from the start tried to hi-jack the gospel of Jesus Christ. The apostles fought valiently, but as soon as they were all murdered (110ad), the floodgates of the falling away (apostacy) was flung wide open.

So when you talk about the apostacy now, you must say that there was 1 Mormon that showed me from the bible when the apostacy started.

Now read posts #5 and #6 and get a more indepth biblical veiw of the apostacy.

 

[fatboys]

It is all about damage control the LDS church is more like politics that Christianity.

Damage control. What control? What damage. If you or anyone else can't live with imperfect people then don't join our church. Go somewhere else but to hang on every statement or grunt or fart to make your case is really obsessive.