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LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

ArmenianJohn

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Neither of these say that God's Truth is just limited to the Bible. Rather the Matthew verse talks about the fulfillment of the Law of Moses, and Timothy talks about the purpose of scripture.
The passage in Matthew shows that Christ was to "fulfill" the Law while He was here. He was to complete the law - His work would culminate in leaving us with the completed written Word of God. He would provide the New Testament to fulfill the Old Testament which was already recorded by then. He would accomplish this through His Disciples as was prophesied in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 8:13–17 - “Sanctify the lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be to you for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the Law AMONG MY DISCIPLES. And I will wait upon the Lord, that hides his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

The Lord completed the scripture through His Disciples.

The passage in Timothy confirms that scripture is "sufficient" and that there is no additional scripture required beyond what has been given to us. This means that additional "scriptures" that come after the Bible are automatically not true scriptures. That's why the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures are worthless, just like the Koran or any other false scripture.
 
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Jane_Doe

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The passage in Matthew shows that Christ was to "fulfill" the Law while He was here. He was to complete the law - His work would culminate in leaving us with the completed written Word of God. He would provide the New Testament to fulfill the Old Testament which was already recorded by then. He would accomplish this through His Disciples as was prophesied in the Old Testament:

Isaiah 8:13–17 - “Sanctify the lord of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread. And he shall be to you for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offense to both houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem. And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken. Bind up the testimony, seal the Law AMONG MY DISCIPLES. And I will wait upon the Lord, that hides his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.

The Lord completed the scripture through His Disciples.

The passage in Timothy confirms that scripture is "sufficient" and that there is no additional scripture required beyond what has been given to us. This means that additional "scriptures" that come after the Bible are automatically not true scriptures. That's why the Book of Mormon and the other Mormon scriptures are worthless, just like the Koran or any other false scripture.
Again, I agree with you that the Matthew verses fulfill the Law of Moses. But it doesn't say anything God's words & Truth being limited to just what's in the Bible.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Again, I agree with you that the Matthew verses fulfill the Law of Moses. But it doesn't say anything God's words & Truth being limited to just what's in the Bible.
I don't understand what you're trying to say. First you say you agree with me then you say you don't agree with me. Please clarify.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I don't understand what you're trying to say. First you say you agree with me then you say you don't agree with me. Please clarify.
I agree: the verse talks about Christ fulfilling the Law of Moses.
I disagree with any statement that this verse says the God's Truth is limited to just what's in the Bible or that the canon is closed.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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I agree: the verse talks about Christ fulfilling the Law of Moses.
I disagree with any statement that this verse says the God's Truth is limited to just what's in the Bible or that the canon is closed.
It's the same thing. We have a completed Scripture. There are no more prophets and haven't been since John the Baptist. God has revealed all He intended to reveal for the Church Age until the Second Coming of Christ.

You can disagree with that but it contradicts your saying that the Law is fulfilled and it contradicts the Bible.
 
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Jane_Doe

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It's the same thing. We have a completed Scripture. There are no more prophets and haven't been since John the Baptist. God has revealed all He intended to reveal for the Church Age until the Second Coming of Christ.
Do you have a Bible verse which says of this?
You can disagree with that but it contradicts your saying that the Law is fulfilled and it contradicts the Bible.
I'm not disagreeing with the Bible. I'm disagreeing with the non-Biblical ideas you're saying here.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Do you have a Bible verse which says of this?
Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.

I'm not disagreeing with the Bible. I'm disagreeing with the non-Biblical ideas you're saying here.
What non-Biblical ideas? I simply quoted the Bible. The Bible says that Christ said He was here to fulfill the Law. You agreed with that.

Are you changing it now to say you don't agree that Christ fulfilled the Law and therefore more had to be done through Joseph Smith?

I wish you would just say what you mean rather than dodging things with vague remarks like "the non-Biblical ideas you're saying here". Quote me, point to what I'm saying and be clear.

There is so much back and forth with you because you never provide evidence or point to what it is you're talking about. You quote out of context, you sometimes don't quote at all, you make assertions without any evidence. I have to pull teeth to get any kind of straight or clear response from you. I honestly don't know if it's laziness on your part or inability to converse or intentional ambiguity to cover up a weak position on your part.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Luke 16:16
The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.
Doesn't say that it's the end of scripture.

What non-Biblical ideas? I simply quoted the Bible. The Bible says that Christ said He was here to fulfill the Law. You agreed with that. Are you changing it now to say you don't agree that Christ fulfilled the Law?
The following statements you have made are not in the Bible at all (I'm taking this from post #86):
1) The law and scripture are the same thing. --- Not in the Bible, and contradicts the Bible (the Bible continues on after the fulfillment of the Law of Moses)
2) We have a completed Scripture. -- Not in the Bible
3) There are no more prophets and haven't been since John the Baptist. --- Such a statement contradicts the Bible, for example the many reference to prophets in the Book of Revelation.
4) God has revealed all He intended to reveal for the Church Age until the Second Coming of Christ.-- Not in the Bible
 
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ArmenianJohn

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Doesn't say that it's the end of scripture.


The following statements you have made are not in the Bible at all (I'm taking this from post #86):
1) The law and scripture are the same thing. --- Not in the Bible, and contradicts the Bible (the Bible continues on after the fulfillment of the Law of Moses)
2) We have a completed Scripture. -- Not in the Bible
3) There are no more prophets and haven't been since John the Baptist. --- Such a statement contradicts the Bible, for example the many reference to prophets in the Book of Revelation.
4) God has revealed all He intended to reveal for the Church Age until the Second Coming of Christ.-- Not in the Bible
I've refuted all these and you're here now simply claiming that I haven't. I'm not going to repeat myself just because you're playing games.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I've refuted all these and you're here now simply claiming that I haven't. I'm not going to repeat myself just because you're playing games.

I claim it, because you haven't refuted anything. Every verse you post as "defense" of your views doesn't actually say what you say the point you claim it's making.
 
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withwonderingawe

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It's the same thing. We have a completed Scripture. There are no more prophets and haven't been since John the Baptist. God has revealed all He intended to reveal for the Church Age until the Second Coming of Christ.

You can disagree with that but it contradicts your saying that the Law is fulfilled and it contradicts the Bible.

Well I think it needs to be understood what the "fulfilling the Law" means

17 ¶Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

I think we all agree that by fulfilling the Law of Moses he meant his sacrifice would be the last great sacrifice and no more would be needed.

But what did he mean by fulfil the prophets?

John 1:45
45 Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, did write, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.

Philip and the other apostles understood that the Messiah would come and they understood Moses' laws of sacrifices were pointing to that coming. Now why isn't the Old Testament clear on that point? Oh there are a few passages like Isa 53 but as the Book of Mormon says

"...for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away." 1 Nephi 13

Why don't we have anything dating back beyond about 150bc?

Among the Dead Sea Scrolls there is one called 4Q246 The Son of God Scroll

"[X] shall be great upon the earth. [O King all (people) shall] make [peace], and all shall serve [Him. He shall be called the Son of] the [G]reat [God], and by His Name shall He be hailed (as) the Son of God, and they shall call Him Son of the Most High like a shooting star....Their kingdom will be an eternal kingdom, and their paths will be righteous. They will judge"

The Angel Gabriel who appeared to Mary paraphrased that passage.
Luke 1
32 He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33 And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jesus said; Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jesus said to the Jews; "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad"

On the road to Emmaus Jesus opens the scriptures to the disciples;
"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself"

and later he says;
"These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me"

Where are all of these prophecies? Where is the prophecy concerning

Well there are a number of lost scriptures "...sayings of the seers.." 2 Chr. 33:19, acts of Abijah … in the story of the prophet Iddo: 2 Chr. 13:22 and many others.

Mathew quoted another "23 And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene." Where did that come from?

And the Wise Men who came looking for the baby " for we have seen his star in the east, and are come to worship him...
When they had heard the king, they departed; and, lo, the star, which they saw in the east, went before them, till it came and stood over where the young child was. When they saw the star, they rejoiced with exceeding great joy."

There is no scripture in the Old Testament that speaks of a new star to be seen over the place where the Baby Jesus could be found, a Star out of Jacob yes but nothing about a New Star over the baby. Why did they follow that star?
(There is in the Book of Mormon, Hel 14.)

The theory is that between the death of Jesus and the point of when the Bible was put together the Jews removed everything they could which prophesied of the coming of the Messiah, his death and resurrection.

But the Book of Mormon mentions some prophecies which they brought with them;

9 And the world, because of their iniquity, shall judge him to be a thing of naught; wherefore they scourge him, and he suffereth it; and they smite him, and he suffereth it. Yea, they spit upon him, and he suffereth it, because of his loving kindness and his long-suffering towards the children of men..... yieldeth himself, according to the words of the angel, as a man, into the hands of wicked men, to be lifted up, according to the words of Zenock, and to be crucified, according to the words of Neum, and to be buried in a sepulchre, according to the words of Zenos, which he spake concerning the three days of darkness, which should be a sign given of his death..." 1Nephi 19:29

But the point is Jesus wasn't saying he was the end of prophecy but that the prophecies which had been made concerning him had come to pass.
 
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tickingclocker

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He used members of his religion as human piggy banks and wallets. He had all the money he wanted whenever he wanted. All he ever had to do if it came down to it was tell a member he had "a revalation!" that that member should do what he wanted. Just like he did with Emma about plural marriage, told her it was a revelation and commandment from God.

Just look at the mansion he forced a member to pay for via religious blackmail - he told a wealthy doctor who was a member that he had a "revelation!!!" from God that the doctor should build a mansion for his family, and the doctor did as commanded.

Con man and shyster.
What employment did JS hold while creating his church? Did he work as a ditch digger? A glasslooker, then? An honest, successful banker? How about a tavern innkeeper? What else was there.... Oh, yes. Illustrious Mayor of Nauvoo, IL.

All dismal failures.

JS hated physical work, and said so quite often to many people. That and so much more is edited out of his personal works as they are painstakingly gone through with a fine-toothed comb before being slowly released to LDS. If the LDS has nothing to hide, why not just publish what JS's secretaries wrote down for all to see?

Wouldn't be all that "faith promoting" then, would it?
 
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tickingclocker

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Mormon missionaries have visited me several times. Their explanation was that the "rock" was the power of revelation. They used a different verse - Matthew 16:17-18 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (meaning revelation, or the authority to receive revelation, or in other words the Priesthood, is what the missionaries), I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." I suppose since there are so many denominations, the views about "rock" probably differ among various Mormons and their churches.
If that's the case, that "revelation" is the "rock", then why would withwonderingawe claim in post #24 ????:

"The church is not the Rock, in that case you'd better become Catholic.

Jesus himself is the Rock."

No. They don't differ. The LDS promotes this "revelation" bit, them and the FLDS. They must depend upon it being true.

The other main branches of mormonism believe JS became sinfully enamored with his own power, and God essentially dismissed him from His service as "prophet". They all reject 99% of Mormon doctrines, including this one. So, they don't "differ". They are ENTIRELY and completely different!

The "Rock" in that verse has always remained Jesus Christ alone, outside of the LDS and FLDS.
 
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tickingclocker

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These core essential Christian beliefs I'm talking about are basically those summed up in the Nicene Creed... So are you saying that the Mormons now are in agreement with the Nicene Creed?


How so?


Actually, my entire post addresses it. In #37, you pointed to the Roman Catholics as being a Church that does not accept anyone else as being in "The Church" (because ToBeLoved was talking about being part of "the Church"). In direct response to that, I provided from the Catechism of the Roman Catholic Church their view of those Christians who are not Roman Catholics. In that view, it says that they believe that Christians who are not Catholics are still in the Church even if it's in a less than perfect way.

And that is a good example of how orthodox Christian denominations see each other. We may see huge differences but as long as we see an adherence to the essentials as summed up in the Nicene Creed we can accept that church as "Christian".

And that's why the Mormon religion is outside of Christianity. Mormons have too many stark differences. Mormon view of who God is (and who Christ is) is vastly different from all the rest of us. Their view of Scripture is vastly different, as well. There alone are two areas in which there is a gap far too wide to overcome.

It upsets Mormons to no end that mormonism remains staunchly unrecognized as legitimate by all of Christianity, but Christianity will recognize those who severely argued with each other over doctrinal points throughout history, causing schism, and even persecuted each other to death. Some of those arguments are still ongoing, yet we continue to recognize the "doctrinally different side" as legitimate brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.

The LDS sees all other branches of mormonism as apostates from them. There is no alliance or spiritual brotherhood within mormonism's ranks, like there is within Christianity.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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It upsets Mormons to no end that mormonism remains staunchly unrecognized as legitimate by all of Christianity, but Christianity will recognize those who severely argued with each other over doctrinal points throughout history, causing schism, and even persecuted each other to death. Some of those arguments are still ongoing, yet we continue to recognize the "doctrinally different side" as legitimate brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ.

The LDS sees all other branches of mormonism as apostates from them. There is no alliance or spiritual brotherhood within mormonism's ranks, like there is within Christianity.
You're right - and let me point out a couple of ironies in that whole scenario...

First, they consider Christianity to be apostate from them, yet at the same time they claim to believe in the same Jesus as Christians, and the same Salvation as Christians, and that they themselves are to be rightfully called "Christians" - they want so much to be recognized as "Christians" and have their beliefs seen as being in line with orthodox Christian beliefs but all the while they consider orthodox Christians to be "apostates" and their prophets for decades have spoken out against Christianity. Ironic that they want the apostates to accept them as fellow Christians.

The second irony is that while it kills them to be rejected as Christians by orthodox Christians, the main Mormon Church (the Salt Lake denomination, the largest one) rejects all the other Mormon denominations as being "LDS". They do not recognize the FLDS as "LDS" even though "LDS" is right there in that church's name. They don't recognize the RLDS or the Strangites or any of the other LDS denominations as being legitimately LDS although having some doctrinal differences. They despise the LDS who are still polygamists. They act like they despise polygamy yet they named their flagship and most prestigious university after the biggest polygamist in the history of all the LDS denominations.

And somehow all that irony escapes them.
 
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Sophrosyne

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You're right - and let me point out a couple of ironies in that whole scenario...

First, they consider Christianity to be apostate from them, yet at the same time they claim to believe in the same Jesus as Christians, and the same Salvation as Christians, and that they themselves are to be rightfully called "Christians" - they want so much to be recognized as "Christians" and have their beliefs seen as being in line with orthodox Christian beliefs but all the while they consider orthodox Christians to be "apostates" and their prophets for decades have spoken out against Christianity. Ironic that they want the apostates to accept them as fellow Christians.

The second irony is that while it kills them to be rejected as Christians by orthodox Christians, the main Mormon Church (the Salt Lake denomination, the largest one) rejects all the other Mormon denominations as being "LDS". They do not recognize the FLDS as "LDS" even though "LDS" is right there in that church's name. They don't recognize the RLDS or the Strangites or any of the other LDS denominations as being legitimately LDS although having some doctrinal differences. They despise the LDS who are still polygamists. They act like they despise polygamy yet they named their flagship and most prestigious university after the biggest polygamist in the history of all the LDS denominations.

And somehow all that irony escapes them.
Huge irony for sure..... to want to be accepted as Christians by Christians yet claim Christians aren't Christians to begin with how does one wrap their mind around that type of convoluted thinking without getting a huge migraine.
 
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Ironhold

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Huge irony for sure..... to want to be accepted as Christians by Christians yet claim Christians aren't Christians to begin with how does one wrap their mind around that type of convoluted thinking without getting a huge migraine.

We don't deny that others are Christian; we just believe that we have a more complete version of everything.
 
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ArmenianJohn

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We don't deny that others are Christian; we just believe that we have a more complete version of everything.
Feel free to point out what you don't agree with in the following quotes of what your prophets and church leaders have said about Christians and Christianity:

Mormon Prophets and Leaders on Christianity said:
"What is it that inspires professors of Christianity generally with a hope of salvation? It is that smooth, sophisticated influence of the devil, by which he deceives the whole world"
- Prophet Joseph Smith, Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, p.270

"...all the priests who adhere to the sectarian religions of the day with all their followers, without one exception, receive their portion with the devil and his angels."
- Prophet Joseph Smith , The Elders Journal, Joseph Smith Jr., editor, vol.1, no.4, p.60

"This is not just another Church. This is not just one of a family of Christian churches. This is the Church and kingdom of God, the only true Church upon the face of the earth..."
- Prophet Ezra Taft Benson, Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, p.164-165

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom."
- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, 10:127

"Brother Taylor has just said that the religions of the day were hatched in hell. The eggs were laid in hell, hatched on its borders, and then kicked on to the earth."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 6:176

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'harlot of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent"
- Apostle Orson Pratt proclaimed, The Seer, p. 255

"After the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was organized, there were only two churches upon the earth. They were known respectively as the Church of the Lamb of God and Babylon. The various organizations which are called churches throughout Christendom, though differing in their creeds and organizations, have one common origin. They all belong to Babylon"
- George Q. Cannon said, Gospel Truth, p.324

"When the light came to me I saw that all the so-called Christian world was grovelling in darkness."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 5:73

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world."
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199

"The Christian world, so-called, are heathens as to the knowledge of the salvation of God"
- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:171

"Christians—those poor, miserable priests brother Brigham was speaking about—some of them are the biggest whoremasters there are on the earth, and at the same time preaching righteousness to the children of men. The poor devils, they could not get up here and preach an oral discourse, to save themselves from hell; they are preaching their fathers' sermons —preaching sermons that were written a hundred years before they were born. ...You may get a Methodist priest to pour water on you, or sprinkle it on you, and baptize you face foremost, or lay you down the other way, and whatever mode you please, and you will be damned with your priest.
- Apostle Heber C. Kimball, Journal of Discourses, 5:89

"The Gospel of modern Christendom shuts up the Lord, and stops all communication with Him. I want nothing to do with such a Gospel, I would rather prefer the Gospel of the dark ages, so called"
- Prophet Wilford Woodruff, Journal of Discourses, vol. 2, p.196

"But as there has been no Christian Church on the earth for a great many centuries past, until the present century, the people have lost sight of the pattern that God has given according to which the Christian Church should be established, and they have denominated a great variety of Christian Churches ... But there has been a long apostasy, during which the nations have been cursed with apostate churches in great abundance"
- Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses, 18:172

"What! Are Christians ignorant? Yes, as ignorant of the things of God as the brute best."
- Prophet John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

"What does the Christian world know about God? Nothing... Why so far as the things of God are concerned, they are the veriest fools; they know neither God nor the things of God."
- John Taylor, Journal of Discourses 13:225

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (p. 266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men."
- Prophet Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282

"...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great harlot, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was."
- Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, pp. 12, 13

"And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foudation of this (Mormon) church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth..."
- Supposedly Jesus Christ Himself, Doctrine and Covenants 1:30
 
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