LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[ToBeLoved]

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

It says "the hour of his judgment is come", we are in the last hour. During this last hour there are a list of things which will happen. John see many different angels coming to carry out various assignment including the seven plagues during that hour which I don't pretend to understand.

verse 8 says;
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

Babylon is an idiom of Satan and the hold he had on the earth for so long. "Fornication" is an idiom for the worship of false gods. It is used in 2 Chronicles 21:11 when Judah began to worship false gods.
11 Moreover he/ Jehoram made high places in the mountains of Judah, and caused the inhabitants of Jerusalem to commit fornication, and compelled Judah thereto.

So as we look at verse 8 we see that Babylon caused all nations to worship false gods but now that is coming to an end because the everlasting gospel is to be preached to every nation.

The gospel has been preached. Your gospel is not the Biblical gospel. Different gospel.

 

[ToBeLoved]

So everyone before Martin Luther are not real Christians? I mean where do you draw the line? What about my aunt who was a Catholic nun? She believed babies needed to be baptized, she said her Hail Marys and prayed to her other saints? was she not a real Christian?

We let God decide. Unlike Mormons who try to be God.

John 5:22-23
22 Furthermore, the Father judges no one, but has assigned all judgment to the Son, 23so that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him

 

[ToBeLoved]

*In the letters to Timothy Paul draws on this knowledge of the apostasy throughout them, he is deeply worried that Timothy as young as he was will also fall into this apostasy.
1 Tim
3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,
4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.
5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;
7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.
By fables and endless genealogies means the teachings of Gnostics and their order of eons plus there is this Jewish law being added in.
There have always been men who desire to be teachers who think they have a better way, they falsely lay claim to be teachers and preachers of the gospel.

It was always about the teachers of the law. What they worried about is those who would think they were under the Old Covenant, not realizing the New Covenant.

If you believe in the apostasy, then you believe that Jesus also failed in the rock that He built His church upon.

See you cannot go there, unless you REALLY go there.

 

[withwonderingawe]

If you believe in the apostasy, then you believe that Jesus also failed in the rock that He built His church upon.

The church is not the Rock, in that case you'd better become Catholic.

Jesus himself is the Rock
1 Corinthians 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Romans 9:33
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Matt 25
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath notrevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It is the revelation that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of the living God, which is the Rock, upon that knowledge He will build his church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against that and it never has. The truth remains even though mankind lost their way. The doctrine of the Trinity denies the Father & Son relationship which they have! Instead it calls them 'one substance' whatever a substances is?

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Rev 14
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

It says "the hour of his judgment is come", we are in the last hour.

There's your misunderstanding - you think that "the hour of his judgment is come" in the present but this is a prophecy of a future event and it is at that time int he future that the angel is saying "the hour of his judgment is come". That is not at this time - our present time. That is where you're being thrown off.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There's your misunderstanding - you think that "the hour of his judgment is come" in the present tense but this is a prophecy of a future event and it is at that time int he future that the angel is saying "the hour of his judgment is come". That is not at this time - our present time. That is where you're being thrown off.

They think they bring all that is in Revelation to life. Antichrist anyone?

 

[Eutrepismus]

The church is not the Rock, in that case you'd better become Catholic.

Jesus himself is the Rock
1 Corinthians 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Romans 9:33
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Mormon missionaries have visited me several times. Their explanation was that the "rock" was the power of revelation. They used a different verse - Matthew 16:17-18 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (meaning revelation, or the authority to receive revelation, or in other words the Priesthood, is what the missionaries), I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." I suppose since there are so many denominations, the views about "rock" probably differ among various Mormons and their churches.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Mormon missionaries have visited me several times. Their explanation was that the "rock" was the power of revelation. They used a different verse - Matthew 16:17-18 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (meaning revelation, or the authority to receive revelation, or in other words the Priesthood, is what the missionaries), I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." I suppose since there are so many denominations, the views about "rock" probably differ among various Mormons and their churches.

Peter received his testimony " Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not reveal edit unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" It was the Father that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the Son of God. It's this knowledge which the Church is founded on.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The church is not the Rock, in that case you'd better become Catholic.

Jesus himself is the Rock
1 Corinthians 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Romans 9:33
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Matt 25
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath notrevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It is the revelation that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of the living God, which is the Rock, upon that knowledge He will build his church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against that and it never has. The truth remains even though mankind lost their way. The doctrine of the Trinity denies the Father & Son relationship which they have! Instead it calls them 'one substance' whatever a substances is?

'rock' is used in more than one way in the Bible.

Of course Jesus is the rock. Then Jesus said to Peter "upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell WILL NOT prevail against it"

Now you need to explain why Jesus lied in the above statement. Jesus has said there is NO apostasy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Peter received his testimony " Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath not reveal edit unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven" It was the Father that revealed to Peter that Jesus was the promised Messiah and the Son of God. It's this knowledge which the Church is founded on.

Yes, God reveals things to people.

So what is your point?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Mormon missionaries have visited me several times. Their explanation was that the "rock" was the power of revelation. They used a different verse - Matthew 16:17-18 "And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock (meaning revelation, or the authority to receive revelation, or in other words the Priesthood, is what the missionaries), I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." I suppose since there are so many denominations, the views about "rock" probably differ among various Mormons and their churches.

Considering Peter was an apostle and called to preach the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ. This explanation of the verses obviously false.

Every time a rock has been used in the Bible it denotes strength.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The church is not the Rock, in that case you'd better become Catholic.

Jesus himself is the Rock
1 Corinthians 10:4
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
Romans 9:33
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

Matt 25
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona: for flesh and blood hath notrevealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

It is the revelation that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of the living God, which is the Rock, upon that knowledge He will build his church. The gates of hell shall not prevail against that and it never has. The truth remains even though mankind lost their way. The doctrine of the Trinity denies the Father & Son relationship which they have! Instead it calls them 'one substance' whatever a substances is?

This makes no sense.

Please answer the question again. This answer is so confusing. No logic to follow at all.

 

[Jane_Doe]

'rock' is used in more than one way in the Bible.

Of course Jesus is the rock. Then Jesus said to Peter "upon this rock I will build my church and the gates of hell WILL NOT prevail against it"

Now you need to explain why Jesus lied in the above statement. Jesus has said there is NO apostasy.

If you believe that there was no falling away, why or you not Catholic? Or Orthodox? Or one of the other churches who claim direct descendent ship?

The fact that you are a Protestant says that you believe this churches fell away.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, God reveals things to people.

So what is your point?

It's the rock.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It's the rock.

And if JS is correct, than Jesus lied in the Bible. Is that correct?

 

[ToBeLoved]

If you believe that there was no falling away, why or you not Catholic? Or Orthodox? Or one of the other churches who claim direct descendent ship?

The fact that you are a Protestant says that you believe this churches fell away.

Jesus is the King, Savior, Lord and High Priest.

I do not need a church. We ARE the church. I have a church, but I don't need it, per se.

Jesus built the Christian church. They are Christian church denominations.

Mormonism is not a Christian church denomination. Polytheistic religions are so very different from One God.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I do not need a church. We ARE the church. I have a church, but I don't need it, per se.

That's not the Catholic view at all- in fact Catholics view such statements as hearsay. But obviously you think that they are wrong and have apostatized from the Truth. If you truly believed no apostasy happened you would be Catholic (or Orthodox or one of the other groups that claims historical descedentship).

 

[Jane_Doe]

And if JS is correct, than Jesus lied in the Bible. Is that correct?

No lies.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

That's not the Catholic view at all- in fact Catholics view such statements as hearsay. But obviously you think that they are wrong and have apostatized from the Truth. If you truly believed no apostasy happened you would be Catholic (or Orthodox or one of the other groups that claims historical descedentship).

This is the Roman Catholic view on non-Roman Catholic Christians:
The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter. Those who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, although imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. With the Orthodox churches, this communion is so profound that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist. (CCC 838)

In short, Christian churches tend to recognize each other as "Christian" even if they see each other with various errors. There are certain common essentials from Scripture that need to be met for someone to be considered a Christian. The Nicene Creed does a good job explaining such essentials.

The Roman Catholic Church thinks they are "The One True Church". In a way, they have good reason and in a way they are right; but they fail, in my opinion (and opinions of many others) in trying to brand and make "official" their status and their membership rolls. In this way they are very much like the Mormon Religion and are committing the same fallacy.

You seem to want to look to the shortcomings and errors of various Christian churches and point to this as proof of "Apostasy!!!!" Christians understand that the Church is made up of sinful human beings (albeit saved by Grace) and imperfect human beings who will continue to fall short and be in error on various things. What matters, and what is unmistakable to Christians of any denomination, is the communication from God through His Word and through the Holy Spirit as to who God is, what Salvation is, and those core, essential beliefs that make a person a "Christian".

The Mormon religion lives in denial in order to preserve their belief that they are "The One True Church" and have infallible "prophets" who have guided them, despite all the evidence that this is false. That is what makes it easier in your mind to point to the admitted errors in Christian churches and say, "See??? Apostasy!!!" The problem is that your viewpoint is misinformed and wrong, as I've described above.

 

[withwonderingawe]

And if JS is correct, than Jesus lied in the Bible. Is that correct?

The way you interpret the Bible is a lie!