LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

Peter1000 · May 24, 2016

Albion said:
I was simply saying that it was the original church, not that I have any preferences between the various Saints churches.

There is a simple way of identifying the original church. Jesus said the original church would not have a rival. Where the original would grow and expand, the breakoffs would be small and inconsequential.

The BY group has grown and expanded mightily, not just a little, but mightily.

In complete contrast, the RLDS have declined rapidly, they are inconsequential. They no longer look to JS as the founder and do not teach his teachings over the pulpit or read from the BOM, and they have changed their name.

So it doesn't matter what they say about anything. Jesus gave us the truth about identifying the original church, and it should be perfectly clear to anyone.

Alla27 · May 24, 2016

LIVING Apostles and prophets, not dead ones, were the foundation of the Church of Christ in the first century.
As soon as they were gone from the Earth, as soon the Church did NOT have THIS KIND of FOUNDATION ON EARTH, there was no more the Church of Christ on Earth. Sad, but true.
This is why God had to restore His Church on Earth. Wonderful, marvelous, and true.

Sophrosyne · May 24, 2016

Jane_Doe said:
You can think that if you want. You're totally wrong, but you have the right to think whatever you want.

Me and about 1 billion others of us that haven't joined Mr. Smith's salvation club.

Peter1000 · May 24, 2016

ArmenianJohn said:
That's not the way the RLDS tell it.

I would like to ask you a question about the Armenian chruch.

The Armenian church was founded around 301ad. It continued until around 450ad and at that time there was a hot debate about the nature of Jesus. The Nestorian view was that Jesus had a duel nature, both human and divine.
The monophysite view was that Jesus was divine only.

So around 450ad the monophysite group split from the Armenian church and started their own Monophysite Church.
It is obviously a split based on an essential doctrine, the nature of Jesus Christ.

So tell me what happened to the Monophysite Church? It was obviously teaching false doctrine now. Was the Monophysite group in apostasy, or partail apostasy?

Sophrosyne · May 24, 2016

Peter1000 said:
The only reason I talk about this: (The Mormon church has 120,000 missionaries in at least 150 countries and has 106 temples that are functioning or will soon be functioning, outside of the United States. 185 all total) is because many have said on this forum that the Mormon church is nothing more that a sex cult of the most disgusting origin.

You must know that disgusting sex cults rarely make it out of the home of origin, let alone grow to the size of 16,000,000 sex fiends, with sex fiend clubs all over the Christain world.

Not that impressive for such a large amount of missionaries but then probably 90,000 of them are 17 year old boys as that is all I've ever seen running around here. My church has over 1500 bible schools in nearly 100 countries and you have about 110,000 more missionaries than we have members.
I agree with him that mormonism is a sex cult.... after all doing all you can do you get to be a god and have sex with your wives tons of times to create enough to fill your own little world up with people where as Christians say there is no sex in heaven and no marriages other than to Christ as a group (bride of Christ is the church). Come to think of it Mormonism sort of mirrors Islam a lot in the sex bit... as the reward for "good" muslims in the next life is a lot of virgins to have sex with in the and some of them are also polygamists in some parts of the world.

Alla27 · May 24, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
Me and about 1 billion others of us that haven't joined Mr. Smith's salvation club.

yep, you and I billion others are wrong. Sad.

Alla27 · May 24, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
I agree with him that mormonism is a sex cult.... after all doing all you can do you get to be a god and have sex with your wives tons of times to create enough to fill your own little world up with people

Wrong
1)nobody ever talked about sex in heaven. We have no idea how Gods have spirit children
2)to have spirit children is not the only thing Gods do. They create worlds and many wonderful things in them
This is life - to do all those things while being with your family forever.

Peter1000 · May 24, 2016

NYCGuy said:
What are your sources for the numbers.

For missionaries, just google "how many mormon missionaires". I got my # by adding full time missionaries 85,000-90,000 + older couples/part time missionaries 30,000-40,000.

For temples go to www.ldschurchtemples.com/chronological/

fatboys · May 24, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
Me and about 1 billion others of us that haven't joined Mr. Smith's salvation club.

I wonder how many followed Jesus when he was alive and the thousands of years it took to be the numbers they are now. Not from coverts but by force at times

Sophrosyne · May 24, 2016

Alla27 said:
yep, you and I billion others are wrong. Sad.

we are less wrong than you are because we billion rely more heavily upon the Bible and none at all on Mr. Smiths salvation club.

Sophrosyne · May 24, 2016

fatboys said:
I wonder how many followed Jesus when he was alive and the thousands of years it took to be the numbers they are now. Not from coverts but by force at times

not a huge number as his target audience was exclusively Israel and they showed him how much they "followed" him by having him put to death.

NYCGuy · May 24, 2016

Peter1000 said:
For missionaries, just google "how many mormon missionaires". I got my # by adding full time missionaries 85,000-90,000 + older couples/part time missionaries 30,000-40,000.

For temples go to www.ldschurchtemples.com/chronological/

Perhaps it would be best if you cite your actual source. I have already done so in reference to the number of members (given as 15,634,199 according to the LDS church itself, not over 16 million, according to you), as well as the number of missionaries (given as 74,079 full time missionaries according to the LDS church itself (and includes the number of senior couple missionaries), not 120,000 according to you).

Sophrosyne · May 24, 2016

Alla27 said:
Wrong
1)nobody ever talked about sex in heaven. We have no idea how Gods have spirit children
2)to have spirit children is not the only thing Gods do. They create worlds and many wonderful things in them
This is life - to do all those things while being with your family forever.

You have no idea eh? Maybe someone who isn't a Mormon can chime in and enlighten you on that.

Sophrosyne · May 24, 2016

NYCGuy said:
Perhaps it would be best if you cite your actual source. I have already done so in reference to the number of members (given as 15,634,199 according to the LDS church itself, not over 16 million, according to you), as well as the number of missionaries (given as 74,079 full time missionaries according to the LDS church itself (and includes the number of senior couple missionaries), not 120,000 according to you).

I'm guessing they have closer to 9 million by my estimate and this article here that discusses them inflating things back in 2010.
http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Mormon-Church-falsifies-US-membership-numbers

Albion · May 24, 2016

Peter1000 said:
I can tell you enjoy saying things over and over....

Actually, I hate it. Fortunately, most people I get into discussions with act as though they've read and understood what was given back to them in the form of an answer, making repetitions or further clarifications unnecessary...and that's the case whether or not they agreed with it. I wasn't so fortunate with this thread, however.

Peter1000 · May 24, 2016

NYCGuy said:
Perhaps it would be best if you cite your actual source. I have already done so in reference to the number of members (given as 15,634,199 according to the LDS church itself, not over 16 million, according to you), as well as the number of missionaries (given as 74,079 full time missionaries according to the LDS church itself (and includes the number of senior couple missionaries), not 120,000 according to you).

This is where I got my number of full time missionaries.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...re-to-use-and-pay-for-digital-devices.html?pg

There is also a large number of part time missionaries not included in the full time nunbers, I don't know exactly what that number is, but I estimated it at 10,000 - 20,000, mostly older couples that help in inner-city missions, mostly in America, but I believe there are other nations involved. They live at home and do 1 or 2 days of missionary service per week.

There is also a large number of humanitarian missionaries that help in centers around the world to prepare and engage in helping at times of disasters. They to usually live at home in their areas, and volunteer part time help to these centers.

Every ward in the church has at least 1 or 2 part time missionaries that help the full-time missionaries in their work. There are over 30,000 congregations/wards, which means there are another 30,000-60,000 ward/local part time missionaries.

So when I say 120,000 missionaries, there could be more or less if you use an equivilent part-time vs full-time missionary calculation. Let me just say, we have a lot of missionaries.

Peter1000 · May 24, 2016

Albion said:
Actually, I hate it. Fortunately, most people I get into discussions with act as though they've read and understood what was given back to them in the form of an answer, making repetitions or further clarifications unnecessary...and that's the case whether or not they agreed with it. I wasn't so fortunate with this thread, however.

If you hate it so much, why did you again bring up for the 3rd time that the RLDS church is the original church? I believe you know that is not true, but you said it a 3rd time. I can only guess, since I disagreed with you twice, and gave you pretty concrete information, that you was going to enjoy saying it at least 1 more time. If you really believe it, show me your conclusions again. My last post was in fact asking what is the RLDS saying? Do they really believe they are the original LDS church?

If i'm up in the night, forgive me. I will try to be more articulate when I respond. Thanks for the discussion.

NYCGuy · May 24, 2016

Peter1000 said:
This is where I got my number of full time missionaries.
http://www.deseretnews.com/article/...re-to-use-and-pay-for-digital-devices.html?pg

I see...think I'll go with the official numbers given by the LDS church last month instead of whatever is said in that video (does it actually mention the number, or is it speculating on what the peak number of missionaries after "the surge" would be? I'll listen later).

There is also a large number of part time missionaries not included in the full time nunbers, I don't know exactly what that number is, but I estimated it at 10,000 - 20,000, mostly older couples that help in inner-city missions, mostly in America, but I believe there are other nations involved. They live at home and do 1 or 2 days of missionary service per week.

So you don't know, but what is the basis for your estimation? The church doesn't given out that number of part time missionaries, and when I search "lds part time missionaries", it looks like this is in reference to church service missionaries, who are non-proselytizing.

There is also a large number of humanitarian missionaries that help in centers around the world to prepare and engage in helping at times of disasters. They to usually live at home in their areas, and volunteer part time help to these centers.

See above.

Every ward in the church has at least 1 or 2 part time missionaries that help the full-time missionaries in their work. There are over 30,000 congregations/wards, which means there are another 30,000-60,000 ward/local part time missionaries.

Yes, I was a ward missionary.

So when I say 120,000 missionaries, there could be more or less if you use an equivilent part-time vs full-time missionary calculation. Let me just say a lot of missionaries.

I won't belabor the point further, but the point is that you seem to be conflating a lot of types of missionaries, some that are non-proselytizing, to reach your 120,000 estimate (again, part of that number isn't even based on actual data, but your speculations). Suffice it to say, the LDS church gives the number of full-time missionaries (which is generally what is being referenced when "the missionaries" are being discussed), which includes young males, females, and elderly couples, and also gives the number of church-service missionaries in the same links I provided earlier.

Peter1000 · May 24, 2016

Sophrosyne said:
I'm guessing they have closer to 9 million by my estimate and this article here that discusses them inflating things back in 2010.
http://exmormon.org/d6/drupal/Mormon-Church-falsifies-US-membership-numbers

There you go with your exmormon disinformation. They need to update their files for more current information. We would not inflate back to 2010. That would indeed show less missionaries. If we are going to inflate a number, it could be our projections in the future. In any event your guess is wrong again.

NYCGuy · May 24, 2016

Peter1000 said:
There you go with your exmormon disinformation. They need to update their files for more current information. We would not inflate back to 2010. That would indeed show less missionaries. If we are going to inflate a number, it could be our projections in the future. In any event your guess is wrong again.

You may have to follow your own advice. The LDS church's official number of full-time missionaries, from a month ago, is a lot less than what you claimed, including with the link to a video from 2 years ago.

LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

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