LDS Joseph Smith's Claim of an Apostasy is a Lie

[NYCGuy]

Be amused, but keep your eye on the growing population of the Mormon church. It will grow even faster in the next few years. It will be rather astonishing.

No more astonishing than the Seventh-day Adventists, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc. claiming the same thing.

 

[NYCGuy]

Jesus would not allow a complete apostasy, for if he had, then the gates of hell would have prevailed.

And this is how we know there was no apostasy of Christ's Church. He would not allow His Body, His Kingdom, to fail. It was never lost.

Missionary work was instituted from the beginning and today there are 120,000 missionaries a year, teaching the people the name of Jesus Christ.

Your website states that there are 74,079 full time missionaries.

The membership is up to over 16,000,000 people

According to who? Your website gives a different number.

and is 1 of only a few churches that can say they have a world-wide church presence.

Huh? There are plenty of churches with a world-wide presence, many much larger than the LDS church.

The partail and complete apostasy was real, the restitution of all things spoken of in the bible is real too.

We have yet to see evidence that Christ's Church failed.

 

[Jane_Doe]

It's also interesting how the LDS argument on numbers varies, at least from what I've seen on various forums. Some will say something like this-"we're the largest LDS-related church, the others are very small by comparison, this is proof we're the true LDS church". Then, when discussing how minuscule the LDS church is compared to various Christian churches, as well as the world population as a whole, some LDS will then say-"well the scriptures say that the church will always be small, etc". Very amusing.

*Shrug* And then there's some of us that don't look at numbers as an indicator of truth and prefer to just look to God for Truth.

 

[Sophrosyne]

*Shrug* And then there's some of us that don't look at numbers as an indicator of truth and prefer to just look to God for Truth.

You mean Mr Smith's truth.

 

[withwonderingawe]

And this is how we know there was no apostasy of Christ's Church. He would not allow His Body, His Kingdom, to fail. It was never lost.

The gates of will not prevail against the truth that Jesus is the Son of God, Jesus is the Rock and not Peter.

1Peter 2 speaking to baptized members of the Church and priesthood holders Peter said;
3 If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious.
4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.
6 Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.
7 Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner,
8 And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed.

 

[NYCGuy]

*Shrug* And then there's some of us that don't look at numbers as an indicator of truth and prefer to just look to God for Truth.

Indeed. My post was directed to those that do look at numbers.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Huh? There are plenty of churches with a world-wide presence, many much larger than the LDS church.

Even my Church, whose membership is almost exclusively ethnic Armenians of whom there are only around 7 or 8 million in the world, has a worldwide presence. We have churches in Armenia of course, but also Lebanon, Syria, Russia, Iraq, the US, Canada, England, France, Germany, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, India, Mexico, Spain, Uruguay, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Israel, Ethiopia.... There's more, too...

What an odd thing for anyone to boast about when it's so common for most denominations today to have a worldwide presence.

 

[Jane_Doe]

You mean Mr Smith's truth.

You seem very preoccupied with JS. Much more so than me...

 

[Peter1000]

But then, the "original" (if not necessarily the largest or best known) is the RLDS (i.e. the Community of Christ, as it's now known). The church that came later to be headed by Brigham Young isn't the original, and it's being the original that matters in this particular line of thought.

And if you say that the LDS is better, more authentic, truer, what JS had in mind, or anything else like that...it's exactly the kind of thing that many Protestants say in response to Catholics using the "original church" argument on them.

You can say what you wish about RLDS, it doesn't matter. BY was the president of the 12 apostles and when JS died, the quorum of the 12 apostles were then in control of the church. He did not get along particularly well with Emma Smith. Sidney Rigdon, who had been JS 1st councilor (who had moved out of Nauvoo and lived in Pittsburg and was pretty much out of the church) came back to Nauvoo and met with Emma and they decided to dispute who would be the new leader of the church. So one Sunday, both SR and BY were scheduled to speak to the people of Nauvoo and put forth their reasons for being the next leader of the church.

Sidney spoke first and was very lengthy and proposed that he be called to be the guardian of the church until 1 of JS children could be of age to take over the church. Then BY spoke, as he was speaking, his facial features were transformed and his voice was transformed into that of JS. All did not notice it, but the majority of people thought they were being addressed by JS. This revelation sealed the decision. The vast majority of people followed BY. Emma was never reconciled with BY and when he took the majority of people to SLC, she did not go.

There were some splinter groups that immediatley split off. None came to anything and soon disbanded. A lot of those splinter group people eventually made there way back around Nauvoo. Approxinately 16 years after BY left Nauvoo and was established as a growing and thriving community in the valley of the great salt lake, a new church was organized around Nauvoo, they called themselves the RLDS, The Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ. They existed for a time, but finally they approached Emma and asked if JS the 3rd would be their president. She finally accepted for him and the new church was up and going. It reached it's zenith in about 1970 when it had around 350,000 people. But because of problems, and not enough money, the church started to decline until finally around 2000 it abandoned JS and joined the NCC so that it could apply for funds to run its chruch, and changed the name to the Community of Christ. It is a very small congregation in Independence Missouri.

The RLDS was organized long after BY took control of the Church of Jesus Christ, and it no longer preaches the BOM or teaches that JS was a prophet. It gave up it's inheritance for money. It is in no way a rival or anything to compare to what Jesus did with BY.

Say what you will about RLDS, it does not matter. BTW, your analogy about protestants and Catholic church could mean something if the RLDS had organized before BY left Nauvoo, but that is not what happened, so it is a mute point. RLDS is not on the radar.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Even my Church, whose membership is almost exclusively ethnic Armenians of whom there are only around 7 or 8 million in the world, has a worldwide presence. We have churches in Armenia of course, but also Lebanon, Syria, Russia, Iraq, the US, Canada, England, France, Germany, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, India, Mexico, Spain, Uruguay, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Israel, Ethiopia.... There's more, too...

What an odd thing for anyone to boast about when it's so common for most denominations today to have a worldwide presence.

Got one in Turlock California, that's where I grew up. They have at least one of everything.

 

[Sophrosyne]

You seem very preoccupied with JS. Much more so than me...

Actually your whole religion is a preoccupation with Mr. Smith because it all hinges on his words if he is proven to be a fraud then mormonism falls apart like a house of cards. He is the one that said everyone else is wrong (apostasy).

 

[Jane_Doe]

Actually your whole religion is a preoccupation with Mr. Smith because it all hinges on his words if he is proven to be a fraud then mormonism falls apart like a house of cards. He is the one that said everyone else is wrong (apostasy).

Nope. My faith rests in Christ, not men.

 

[BigDaddy4]

Nope. My faith rests in Christ, not men.

More disinginuity. Your faith rests in a man made religion. If your faith was in Christ alone, you would denouce the teaching of the lds church and follow what's in the Bible. He is not one of 3 gods, nor is he the spirit brother of Lucifer, or has a heavenly mother, or that he appeared to anyone in the Americas, or any of the other extra Biblical teachings about him.

In Christ alone...

 

[Sophrosyne]

Nope. My faith rests in Christ, not men.

No, your faith as a mormon must rest in Mr. Smith as he has replaced the "Christ" of Christianity with his own religion.

 

[ArmenianJohn]

Got one in Turlock California, that's where I grew up. They have at least one of everything.

We have tons of churches in California, so I'm not surprised... I would imagine Turlock has one of everything, California has a huge mix of people!

 

[Peter1000]

Even my Church, whose membership is almost exclusively ethnic Armenians of whom there are only around 7 or 8 million in the world, has a worldwide presence. We have churches in Armenia of course, but also Lebanon, Syria, Russia, Iraq, the US, Canada, England, France, Germany, Australia, Brazil, Argentina, India, Mexico, Spain, Uruguay, Italy, Greece, Cyprus, Israel, Ethiopia.... There's more, too...

What an odd thing for anyone to boast about when it's so common for most denominations today to have a worldwide presence.

The only reason I talk about this: (The Mormon church has 120,000 missionaries in at least 150 countries and has 106 temples that are functioning or will soon be functioning, outside of the United States. 185 all total) is because many have said on this forum that the Mormon church is nothing more that a sex cult of the most disgusting origin.

You must know that disgusting sex cults rarely make it out of the home of origin, let alone grow to the size of 16,000,000 sex fiends, with sex fiend clubs all over the Christain world.

 

[Jane_Doe]

No, your faith as a mormon must rest in Mr. Smith as he has replaced the "Christ" of Christianity with his own religion.

You can think that if you want. You're totally wrong, but you have the right to think whatever you want.

 

[Albion]

You can say what you wish about RLDS, it doesn't matter.

I was simply saying that it was the original church, not that I have any preferences between the various Saints churches.

 

[NYCGuy]

The only reason I talk about this: (The Mormon church has 120,000 missionaries in at least 150 countries and has 106 temples that are functioning or will soon be functioning, outside of the United States. 185 all total) is because many have said on this forum that the Mormon church is nothing more that a sex cult of the most disgusting origin.

You must know that disgusting sex cults rarely make it out of the home of origin, let alone grow to the size of 16,000,000 sex fiends, with sex fiend clubs all over the Christain world.

What are your sources for the numbers.

 

[Peter1000]

That's not the way the RLDS tell it.

It's been a while since I looked at that hisory. How does the RLDS tell it?