LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[Leaf473]

I'm back.
thank you for waiting and for your kind sentiments.
we got my mom settled into a nice memory Care facility.
she doesn't know where she is or why she's there, but that's pretty standard for someone with memory issues!

People are not removed from the community in The Church Of Jesus Christ Of Latter Day Saints. That may be true of a break off church. In order to get a temple recommend a person should keep the word of wisdom.

right, and different faith communities have different methods of "removal".

for example, in the Catholic Church, pretty much anyone is welcome to come sit in the pews during mass.
but only those who have "followed the rules" can legitimately partake of communion there.
I am good friends with a lady who is excommunicated.
she still attends Mass regularly, and her ministry to the poor is partially funded by the local parish.
but she has been "removed" in the sense that she cannot participate fully.

similarly, I suspect that pretty much anyone is welcome to attend an LDS Sunday morning meeting.
but in order to participate fully with a temple recommend, it sounds like a person must, at least in part, and at least in practice, keep a set of rules.

in the LDS view, can a person obtain eternal life without keeping the rules required for a temple recommend?

PS I haven't forgotten that this thread is about the book of Abraham.
I believe the discussion will come back around to that subject soon.

 

[Hrairoo]

in the LDS view, can a person obtain eternal life without keeping the rules required for a temple recommend?
.

No. From the church website: "Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God’s presence and to continue as families (see Doctrine and Covenants 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3)."

Because Christ died for us, everyone will be resurrected. But only those judged obedient and worthy will have eternal life in Mormon heaven.

Btw, I love this topic. The seer stones really hit me hard but the truth behind the papyrus and the "translation" of the Book of Abraham is what really shot an arrow through the heart of my faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

 

[Hrairoo]

It was not a half truth, she was his sister.

From lds.org student manual Genesis 12-17 (meaning this is official, church approved scripture study material, otherwise, it would not be on the church website in the student manual section)

"(5-5) Genesis 12:10–20. Why Did Abraham Call Sarah His Sister?
Abraham could validly state that Sarah was his sister. In the Bible the Hebrew words brother and sister are often used for other blood relatives. (See Genesis 14:14, in which Lot, Abraham’s nephew, is called “his brother.”) Because Abraham and Haran, Sarah’s father, were brothers, Sarah was Abraham’s niece and thus could be called sister.

Even though Abraham was correct in calling her his sister, he did deceive the Egyptians. How can this action be justified? The answer is very simple. His action was justified because God told him to do it (see Abraham 2:22–25). The Prophet Joseph Smith taught the following:

“That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another.

“God said, ‘Thou shalt not kill;’ at another time He said, ‘Thou shalt utterly destroy.’ This is the principle on which the government of heaven is conducted—by revelation adapted to the circumstances in which the children of the kingdom are placed. Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire.” (Teachings, p. 256.)

Since God is perfect and does not do anything that is not right (see Deuteronomy 32:4; 1 Samuel 15:29; Alma 7:20; D&C 3:2), Abraham’s act was not wrong."

That's what Mormons believe.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
It is pretty convenient how all the documents Smith claims to "translate" get lost .. and yet that act of "translating" is claimed as super important for Mormons. how is it they keep losing the documents they claim are so important?

You may think it convenient that much of the papyrus from the Book of Abraham was burned by fire in a museum in Chicago, .

Different topic

 

[Ironhold]

in the LDS view, can a person obtain eternal life without keeping the rules required for a temple recommend?

It depends upon the person's specific circumstances.

For example, there have been situations where members of the church working as undercover police officers have had to engage in actions generally against church principles in order to serve the greater good of getting criminals off the street.

 

[Hrairoo]

this isn't the quote I was thinking of, but I'm not sure where that quote was.
or if I'm misremembering it.

but, going with this for now,
"...where the purity of the scriptures remains unsullied by the folly of men..."
Joseph Smith Quotes

I assume that in his translation, he fixes those parts that he says have been sullied.

to me, his fixes often look to involve significant alterations.
and again to me, that amounts to a claim that the ancient manuscripts we have today have been significantly altered from what was originally written.

I am an ex-Mormon. But yes, you are correct. From lds.org Gospel Topics Essays "Bible, Inerrancy of":

"As the Bible was compiled, organized, translated, and transcribed, many errors entered the text. The existence of such errors becomes apparent when one considers the numerous and often conflicting translations of the Bible in existence today. Careful students of the Bible are often puzzled by apparent contradictions and omissions. Many people have also been curious about references by biblical prophets to books or scriptural passages that are not currently in the Bible."

From lds.org The Restoration and Church History article Joseph Smith's Bible Translation:

"Joseph’s translation was not carried out in the traditional sense. He didn’t consult Greek and Hebrew texts or use lexicons to create a new English version. Rather, he used the King James Version of the Bible as his starting point and made additions and changes as he was directed by the Holy Ghost.

Although Joseph made many minor grammatical corrections and modernized some language, he was less concerned with these technical improvements than he was with restoring, through revelation, important truths not included in the contemporary Bible. Historian Mark Lyman Staker characterized the translation as one of “ideas rather than language.”

I was always taught in Sunday school that parts of the Bible that were critical to God's doctrine were altered through transcribing and translation processes by men influenced by the Devil(either as a tired monk in some poorly lit monastery writing by hand or deliberately by a priest in a position of power, trying to alter the text to fit his preaching). Because as we know, there are critical things that the super elite and special Mormons believe are necessary for the salvation of man and Satan wants to destroy man's eternal happiness. So, of course, he had a hand in influencing the loss of these critical doctrines.

 

[He is the way]

I'm back.
thank you for waiting and for your kind sentiments.
we got my mom settled into a nice memory Care facility.
she doesn't know where she is or why she's there, but that's pretty standard for someone with memory issues!

right, and different faith communities have different methods of "removal".

for example, in the Catholic Church, pretty much anyone is welcome to come sit in the pews during mass.
but only those who have "followed the rules" can legitimately partake of communion there.
I am good friends with a lady who is excommunicated.
she still attends Mass regularly, and her ministry to the poor is partially funded by the local parish.
but she has been "removed" in the sense that she cannot participate fully.

similarly, I suspect that pretty much anyone is welcome to attend an LDS Sunday morning meeting.
but in order to participate fully with a temple recommend, it sounds like a person must, at least in part, and at least in practice, keep a set of rules.

in the LDS view, can a person obtain eternal life without keeping the rules required for a temple recommend?

PS I haven't forgotten that this thread is about the book of Abraham.
I believe the discussion will come back around to that subject soon.

It is important to be worthy when participating in God's ordinances!

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 11:27 - 29)

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

 

[He is the way]

Different topic

The topic is the Book of Abraham.

 

[BobRyan]

The topic is the Book of Abraham.

I stand corrected. I got the BoM topic of "losing the golden plates" mixed up with "losing the manuscript for Book of Abraham"

Can be a bit difficult for me to keep up with all the "losing the source for ..." subjects.

====================

Now here is where you could ask me if I have the source manuscripts for all the major books written by Ellen White...

writing more than 40 books and 5000 periodical articles. There are over 50,000 manuscript pages of her writings... surely a page went missing from a book somewhere.

But in the case of the BoM it is the "entire manuscript for the whole book" and so it appears to be the case also with the "Book of Abraham".

How "instructive"

 

[Leaf473]

It depends upon the person's specific circumstances.

For example, there have been situations where members of the church working as undercover police officers have had to engage in actions generally against church principles in order to serve the greater good of getting criminals off the street.

for LDS, who decides whether a person's circumstances warrant going against Church principles?

does the individual decide, or someone else?

who issues a temple recommend?

can an LDS, or even someone like myself, go and simply say that I qualify for a recommend and then receive one?

 

[Leaf473]

No. From the church website: "Immortality is to live forever as a resurrected being. Through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, everyone will receive this gift. Eternal life, or exaltation, is to live in God’s presence and to continue as families (see Doctrine and Covenants 131:1–4). Like immortality, this gift is made possible through the Atonement of Jesus Christ. However, to inherit eternal life requires our “obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel” (Articles of Faith 1:3)."

Because Christ died for us, everyone will be resurrected. But only those judged obedient and worthy will have eternal life in Mormon heaven.

Btw, I love this topic. The seer stones really hit me hard but the truth behind the papyrus and the "translation" of the Book of Abraham is what really shot an arrow through the heart of my faith in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

it sounds like following a pretty specific set of rules is a big piece of being LDS and attempting to obtain eternal life.

that was my impression from the past, too, just hearing bits and pieces about LDS life.

 

[Hrairoo]

for LDS, who decides whether a person's circumstances warrant going against Church principles?

does the individual decide, or someone else?

who issues a temple recommend?

can an LDS, or even someone like myself, go and simply say that I qualify for a recommend and then receive one?

The Bishop or Stake/Branch President who has authority over you is the one who would give you a temple recommend. This is decided by the area where you live which also determines what church you go to. There are things called ward boundaries which decides "jurisdiction" for a particular ward leader(Bishop).

In order to get a temple recommend you have to meet privately with your Bishop and he will conduct an interview. Here are the temple recommend questions:

1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?
   
2. Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and of His role as your Savior and Redeemer?
   
3. Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
   
4. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?
   
   Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?
   
   Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?
   
5. The Lord has said that all things are to be “done in cleanliness” before Him (Doctrine and Covenants 42:41).
   
   Do you strive for moral cleanliness in your thoughts and behavior?
   
   Do you obey the law of chastity?
   
6. Do you follow the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ in your private and public behavior with members of your family and others?
   
7. Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
   
8. Do you strive to keep the Sabbath day holy, both at home and at church; attend your meetings; prepare for and worthily partake of the sacrament; and live your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
   
9. Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?
   
10. Are you a full-tithe payer?
    
    For new members seeking a limited-use recommend: Are you willing to obey the commandment to pay tithing?
    
11. Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?
    
12. Do you have any financial or other obligations to a former spouse or to children?
    
    If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
    
13. Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?
    
14. Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance?
    
15. Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?

The temple isn't just a church in Mormon doctrine, it is considered to be a very sacred place where God's Spirit resides. So, you have to be worthy in order to go there. Temple recommends I think are good for only a year or two before you have to go to have another interview and get a new one. However, if at any time the Bishop has knowledge or suspects you are no longer worthy, he can take it away from you.

It's more layered and complicated once you get into ages and the particular ordinances you go to the temple to do. But that's the basic jist of how you get one.

 

[Hrairoo]

it sounds like following a pretty specific set of rules is a big piece of being LDS and attempting to obtain eternal life.

that was my impression from the past, too, just hearing bits and pieces about LDS life.

Indeed! The biggest is being a consistent and full tithe payer. In order to get into God's secret country club, you have to maintain tithing payments.

 

[Ironhold]

for LDS, who decides whether a person's circumstances warrant going against Church principles?

does the individual decide, or someone else?

who issues a temple recommend?

can an LDS, or even someone like myself, go and simply say that I qualify for a recommend and then receive one?

God's the ultimate judge.

Individual members, under these circumstances, may feel that they're not worthy, but God understands.

 

[Leaf473]

I am an ex-Mormon. But yes, you are correct. From lds.org Gospel Topics Essays "Bible, Inerrancy of":

"As the Bible was compiled, organized, translated, and transcribed, many errors entered the text. The existence of such errors becomes apparent when one considers the numerous and often conflicting translations of the Bible in existence today. Careful students of the Bible are often puzzled by apparent contradictions and omissions. Many people have also been curious about references by biblical prophets to books or scriptural passages that are not currently in the Bible."

From lds.org The Restoration and Church History article Joseph Smith's Bible Translation:

"Joseph’s translation was not carried out in the traditional sense. He didn’t consult Greek and Hebrew texts or use lexicons to create a new English version. Rather, he used the King James Version of the Bible as his starting point and made additions and changes as he was directed by the Holy Ghost.

Although Joseph made many minor grammatical corrections and modernized some language, he was less concerned with these technical improvements than he was with restoring, through revelation, important truths not included in the contemporary Bible. Historian Mark Lyman Staker characterized the translation as one of “ideas rather than language.”

I was always taught in Sunday school that parts of the Bible that were critical to God's doctrine were altered through transcribing and translation processes by men influenced by the Devil(either as a tired monk in some poorly lit monastery writing by hand or deliberately by a priest in a position of power, trying to alter the text to fit his preaching). Because as we know, there are critical things that the super elite and special Mormons believe are necessary for the salvation of man and Satan wants to destroy man's eternal happiness. So, of course, he had a hand in influencing the loss of these critical doctrines.

thanks for the quotes!
(you probably already know what I say below, but I write it for the possible benefit of people coming by later.)

"As the Bible was compiled, organized, translated, and transcribed, many errors entered the text."

imo, compiling and organizing do not introduce errors into a text.
translating can produce different meanings, but that's no problem, just use several translations.
a common theme in the Bible is, "out of the mouths of two or three (at least!) witnesses".

if one desires to be more intense, consult the commentaries.
and if you're really into it, read the peer reviewed journals.
these things are not done in secret.

the process of copying can introduce errors, but it's not as though there was just a single copy of the New testament documents which was used until it wore out and then another single copy was made.
multiple copies were made shortly after the originals were produced.

so again, by comparing "two or three witnesses", or in this case thousands, scholars today have a high degree of confidence of what the original said.

this is where the discussion can turn again to the book of Abraham.
I know very little about Egypt and Egyptian language.
but seeing what Joseph did with the New testament leads me to be very uneasy about trusting him with an Egyptian papyrus.


"...he was less concerned with these technical improvements than he was with restoring, through revelation, important truths not included in the contemporary Bible."

it sounds like, then, that the restoring and revelation comes through a single person.
again, at least two or three sources is a much better situation, imo.

 

[Leaf473]

It is important to be worthy when participating in God's ordinances!

(New Testament | 1 Corinthians 11:27 - 29)

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

great passage, and lots of great stuff we could talk about in it!

but what I feel led to focus on is
"But let a man examine himself..."

does it work that way for my LDS friends? everyone examines him/herself and decides if they can visit the temple?

or do they try to impress someone in authority who then signs the papers, in some sense?

 

[Leaf473]

The Bishop or Stake/Branch President who has authority over you is the one who would give you a temple recommend. This is decided by the area where you live which also determines what church you go to. There are things called ward boundaries which decides "jurisdiction" for a particular ward leader(Bishop).

In order to get a temple recommend you have to meet privately with your Bishop and he will conduct an interview. Here are the temple recommend questions:

1. Do you have faith in and a testimony of God, the Eternal Father; His Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost?
   
2. Do you have a testimony of the Atonement of Jesus Christ and of His role as your Savior and Redeemer?
   
3. Do you have a testimony of the Restoration of the gospel of Jesus Christ?
   
4. Do you sustain the President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as the prophet, seer, and revelator and as the only person on the earth authorized to exercise all priesthood keys?
   
   Do you sustain the members of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles as prophets, seers, and revelators?
   
   Do you sustain the other General Authorities and local leaders of the Church?
   
5. The Lord has said that all things are to be “done in cleanliness” before Him (Doctrine and Covenants 42:41).
   
   Do you strive for moral cleanliness in your thoughts and behavior?
   
   Do you obey the law of chastity?
   
6. Do you follow the teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ in your private and public behavior with members of your family and others?
   
7. Do you support or promote any teachings, practices, or doctrine contrary to those of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?
   
8. Do you strive to keep the Sabbath day holy, both at home and at church; attend your meetings; prepare for and worthily partake of the sacrament; and live your life in harmony with the laws and commandments of the gospel?
   
9. Do you strive to be honest in all that you do?
   
10. Are you a full-tithe payer?
    
    For new members seeking a limited-use recommend: Are you willing to obey the commandment to pay tithing?
    
11. Do you understand and obey the Word of Wisdom?
    
12. Do you have any financial or other obligations to a former spouse or to children?
    
    If yes, are you current in meeting those obligations?
    
13. Do you keep the covenants that you made in the temple, including wearing the temple garment as instructed in the endowment?
    
14. Are there serious sins in your life that need to be resolved with priesthood authorities as part of your repentance?
    
15. Do you consider yourself worthy to enter the Lord’s house and participate in temple ordinances?

The temple isn't just a church in Mormon doctrine, it is considered to be a very sacred place where God's Spirit resides. So, you have to be worthy in order to go there. Temple recommends I think are good for only a year or two before you have to go to have another interview and get a new one. However, if at any time the Bishop has knowledge or suspects you are no longer worthy, he can take it away from you.

It's more layered and complicated once you get into ages and the particular ordinances you go to the temple to do. But that's the basic jist of how you get one.

wow, thanks for the details!
I'd click the "informative" button twice, but that doesn't do any good

so it sounds like a very specific set of rules to be on the LDS path, and to try to obtain eternal life that way.

I was especially struck by #10
"Are you a full-tithe payer?"


I'm all in favor of following God's instructions, but my impression from the Bible is that they are much more general.
love your others, don't hold grudges, help the poor, consider other people more important than yourself.

 

[Leaf473]

Indeed! The biggest is being a consistent and full tithe payer. In order to get into God's secret country club, you have to maintain tithing payments.

wow again, money always seems to enter the picture in these situations.

I know that Jesus frequently talked about money, but it seems to me like it was again in a more general sense.
he sees a very poor woman put in her last two pennies, and said she put in more than everyone else.
he is not concerned about tithing records.

2 Corinthians 9:7 Let each man give according as he has determined in his heart; not grudgingly, or under compulsion; for God loves a cheerful giver.

not under compulsion, but what a person has decided they want to give!

 

[Leaf473]

God's the ultimate judge.

Individual members, under these circumstances, may feel that they're not worthy, but God understands.

I agree that God is the judge.

but regarding people like myself who have some exposure to LDS teaching but die without ever receiving a temple recommend,
does LDS theology allow that they can obtain eternal life?

 

[Hrairoo]

I agree that God is the judge.

but regarding people like myself who have some exposure to LDS teaching but die without ever receiving a temple recommend,
does LDS theology allow that they can obtain eternal life?

That's what going to the temple is for. The first time a member goes, they can get their endowments and anointing done. All other times a Mormon goes to the temple is to do the endowments and baptisms for the dead. They believe that they can represent the dead person so that deceased person's work is done.

So, if you have children or a relative who is LDS, after you die, they can take your name to the temple and act as proxy to have you baptized into the Mormon church and they can get your endowment done for you. The LDS believe that those who were not Mormon in this life, when they die, they go to a holding cell in spirit prison. There, dead Mormons act as missionaries to come give the imprisoned spirits the LDS lessons just the same as they would on earth. The dead spirit has the choice to believe or reject the doctrine. The baptisms and endowments done for the dead are conditional upon the dead spirit accepting the Mormon gospel.

If you believe in it, it sounds like a good safety net for any souls that might fall through the cracks. If you don't believe in it, it sounds like a lot of busy work to distract people from asking questions about why they pay so much to the church. To build the Lord's temples of course! Why temples? For those who didn't get a chance while alive, of course! Now go find all those dead unbelievers and stop asking about opulent castles and paid prophets.