LDS Joseph Smith's Book of Abraham is False

[mmksparbud]

So you say Jesus is of one SUBSTANCE with the Father, and you believe that SUBSTANCE has always existed. That means that SUBSTANCE (matter) has always existed.

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Whatever He is--and no one has any idea, The Godhead always existed. Again, one does not count the creator as part of their creation. A painter is not part of the paint. You can't seem to comprehend that. Now, if you are through sidetracking---the topic is about the book of Abraham or is it your intention to keep on sidetracking because you know that the book is a total and complete fabrication?

 

[He is the way]

Whatever He is--and no one has any idea, The Godhead always existed. Again, one does not count the creator as part of their creation. A painter is not part of the paint. You can't seem to comprehend that. Now, if you are through sidetracking---the topic is about the book of Abraham or is it your intention to keep on sidetracking because you know that the book is a total and complete fabrication?

I have already shown why the Book of Abraham is not a fabrication. Nor do we have all of the material used for the Book of Abraham. Are you going to say that God is not part of the universe?

 

[mmksparbud]

I have already shown why the Book of Abraham is not a fabrication. Nor do we have all of the material used for the Book of Abraham. Are you going to say that God is not part of the universe?

You can believe whatever you want--I am saying when one talks about a painting, the artist is not included in the painting itself. The artist is not paint. I've told you before, God created everything---period. He is the Creator. Father, Son, Holy Spirit---One God, One from everlasting. Then Jesus became human---not the other way around like LDS theology. The Father was never human, He had no Father, much less a grandfather and Jesus had no grandfather---none had a mother.
They have enough of the book to know that it is not saying anything about Abraham. The actual deciphering shows nothing that JS supposedly "translated" is saying anything remotely similar to what the actual hieroglyphics say. You just refuse to believe that.

 

[He is the way]

You can believe whatever you want--I am saying when one talks about a painting, the artist is not included in the painting itself. The artist is not paint. I've told you before, God created everything---period. He is the Creator. Father, Son, Holy Spirit---One God, One from everlasting. Then Jesus became human---not the other way around like LDS theology. The Father was never human, He had no Father, much less a grandfather and Jesus had no grandfather---none had a mother.
They have enough of the book to know that it is not saying anything about Abraham. The actual deciphering shows nothing that JS supposedly "translated" is saying anything remotely similar to what the actual hieroglyphics say. You just refuse to believe that.

You said: "They have enough of the book to know that it is not saying anything about Abraham." they only have one of the two scrolls. They have no idea of what was written on the other scroll. There are eye witnesses to the papyri at the Wood's museum in Chicago which burned down. The entire scroll was burned up. Can't you understand that God has always been part of the universe. The universe was never completely void. God formed the earth:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

 

[mmksparbud]

You said: "They have enough of the book to know that it is not saying anything about Abraham." they only have one of the two scrolls. They have no idea of what was written on the other scroll. There are eye witnesses to the papyri at the Wood's museum in Chicago which burned down. The entire scroll was burned up. Can't you understand that God has always been part of the universe. The universe was never completely void. God formed the earth:

(Old Testament | Psalms 90:2)

2 Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

You are not listening to what is said---they have enough that they can decipher that they can read that JS and actual wording are not the same thing---The could find 20 more scrolls---He isn't translating anything but making up stuff---the words are not what he says they are.

 

[He is the way]

You are not listening to what is said---they have enough that they can decipher that they can read that JS and actual wording are not the same thing---The could find 20 more scrolls---He isn't translating anything but making up stuff---the words are not what he says they are.

I know what you said and what you said is wrong. They do NOT have enough and are missing MOST if not all of the papyri used to write the Book of Abraham. The other scroll burned up with the Wood's museum in Chicago. Eye witnesses saw the papyri at the Wood's museum before it burned to the ground. They can't read the papyri that burned up. Most of the papyri that survived, as it was NOT at the Wood's museum with the two mummies, is a scroll that was NOT used for the Book of Abraham.

 

[mmksparbud]

I know what you said and what you said is wrong. They do NOT have enough and are missing MOST if not all of the papyri used to write the Book of Abraham. The other scroll burned up with the Wood's museum in Chicago. Eye witnesses saw the papyri at the Wood's museum before it burned to the ground. They can't read the papyri that burned up. Most of the papyri that survived, as it was NOT at the Wood's museum with the two mummies, is a scroll that was NOT used for the Book of Abraham.

 

[He is the way]

You know what, they will never be able to piece together the Book of Abraham using the wrong papyri to do so.

 

[Leaf473]

Through revelation given to Joseph Smith we got the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price. With God's help Joseph was able to heal the sick and prophesy of future events. People had visions and spoke in tongues. Through the authority of the priesthood president Snow brought his niece back from the dead. Many miracles have been given to the saints. That being said it is wrong to seek after a sign:

(New Testament | Matthew 16:4)

4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.

Do you remember the sign of the prophet Jonas?

if you're referring to the sign of the prophet Jonah, I believe it's that he was 3 days and nights in the belly of the whale.

so, are you saying that we do not look to see who is a prophet by who can perform miracles?

what then is the test?
are we back to:
if it leads to Christ and to doing good, then it is of God?

 

[Leaf473]

Eternal life is obtained by keeping the commandments:

(New Testament | Luke 10:25 - 28)

25 ¶ And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

well, I guess LDS people and I interpret the Bible differently.

I think Jesus is giving a specific answer to a specific question.

he gives a different answer to this person:
Luke 10:25 Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" 27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 28 He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."

this appears to be a more general answer, as Jesus talks about "whoever"
John 3:14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

do LDS teach that a person must obey all the commandments, or just those particular ones listed in the passage you quoted?

 

[Leaf473]

(New Testament | Mark 9:38 - 41)

38 ¶ And John answered him, saying, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name, and he followeth not us: and we forbad him, because he followeth not us.
39 But Jesus said, Forbid him not: for there is no man which shall do a miracle in my name, that can lightly speak evil of me.
40 For he that is not against us is on our part.
41 For whosoever shall give you a cup of water to drink in my name, because ye belong to Christ, verily I say unto you, he shall not lose his reward.

great scripture!

so... you don't say that that website is of the Devil,
do you say that it is of God?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are you going to say that God is not part of the universe?

Of course God isn't part of the universe. He's God. He has, however, become part of His creation through the Incarnation. The Uncreated and the created together, united in the undivided and indivisible Person of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[He is the way]

well, I guess LDS people and I interpret the Bible differently.

I think Jesus is giving a specific answer to a specific question.

he gives a different answer to this person:
Luke 10:25 Behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested him, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" 26 He said to him, "What is written in the law? How do you read it?" 27 He answered, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind; and your neighbor as yourself." 28 He said to him, "You have answered correctly. Do this, and you will live."

this appears to be a more general answer, as Jesus talks about "whoever"
John 3:14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

do LDS teach that a person must obey all the commandments, or just those particular ones listed in the passage you quoted?

On those two commandments hang all of the law and the prophets:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:35 - 40)

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

It is our duty to keep the commandments:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:21 - 22)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Leaf473]

On those two commandments hang all of the law and the prophets:

(New Testament | Matthew 22:35 - 40)

35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying,
36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
38 This is the first and great commandment.
39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

It is our duty to keep the commandments:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:21 - 22)

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

do LDS teach that this commandment is to be followed?

Deuteronomy 22:11 You shall not wear a mixed stuff, wool and linen together.

 

[Ironhold]

do LDS teach that this commandment is to be followed?

Deuteronomy 22:11 You shall not wear a mixed stuff, wool and linen together.

Do you?

Remember: if you're going to extend a measure against someone, be prepared to have it extended back against you.

 

[Leaf473]

Do you?

Remember: if you're going to extend a measure against someone, be prepared to have it extended back against you.

no, I do not keep that commandment.

(I believe that all of the commandments are fulfilled by loving one's neighbor.)

however, I don't think we can obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments.
or rather, since it is impossible to keep the commandments, we cannot obtain eternal life that way!

but I was getting the impression that LDS people did believe that they could obtain eternal life by keeping the commandments, that this was something doable.

so, I was asking if they keep all of them, and gave the linen and wool commandant as an example.

 

[He is the way]

do LDS teach that this commandment is to be followed?

Deuteronomy 22:11 You shall not wear a mixed stuff, wool and linen together.

Did Jesus break the commandment by healing a man on the Sabbath? There were those who thought so. Did Jesus break the law concerning blasphemy? It is my belief that some laws were made for man as was the Sabbath. Here is another one:

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:19)

19 ¶ Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Personally I do not like wool, but no one except God should condemn someone who did mingled linen and wool. I find this to be more of a statute than a law, not that we need not keep the statutes. God is our judge and He will determine our fate. We should live the best we can with Jesus Christ as our example. I believe that Christ made it clear that keeping the two great commandments, to Love God, and our neighbor, entitled us to eternal life.

 

[Ran77]

On Biblical support for every soul being created by God, as opposed to every soul pre-existing without God:

7 Then the Lord God formed a man from the dust of the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living being.
Genesis 2:7 NIV

This verse is almost identical in the King James, which Joseph Smith was using.

7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
Genesis 2:7 KJV

Adam wasn't a "living being" or a "living soul" until God breathed in "the breath of life." God didn't create a human body and wait for a pre-existing soul to drop in. God didn't pick out a pre-existing soul. God created Adam's soul.

Thanks for the response.

Does the Bible give a clear explanation for the "breath of life"? If not, then it opens the verse up to interpretation. And what about a clear explanation for "a living soul"? I'm going to do some study and get back to you on this. (I hope. I've been pretty busy lately.)

What prevents this verse from meaning that God breathed a soul into the body of man (dust of the ground) and that is what makes it a living soul?

In John Gill's commentary

Sorry, I don't recognize John Gill as an authority on the topic. I don't expect any of the mainstream Christian participants to accept the opinion of our leaders as binding in any way. And I don't accept the opinion of any of your leaders as binding in any way.

 

[Leaf473]

Did Jesus break the commandment by healing a man on the Sabbath? There were those who thought so. Did Jesus break the law concerning blasphemy?

are you asking these questions rhetorically, or did you want me to actually answer them because you wish to follow up on them after that?

It is my belief that some laws were made for man as was the Sabbath. Here is another one:

(Old Testament | Leviticus 19:19)

19 ¶ Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.

Personally I do not like wool, but no one except God should condemn someone who did mingled linen and wool. I find this to be more of a statute than a law, not that we need not keep the statutes. God is our judge and He will determine our fate. We should live the best we can with Jesus Christ as our example. I believe that Christ made it clear that keeping the two great commandments, to Love God, and our neighbor, entitled us to eternal life.

okay, so it sounds like LDS teach that keeping just those two commandments entitles a person to eternal life.

in your view, did Jesus teach that a person must keep those two commandments perfectly their entire life in order to obtain eternal life? or is it enough just to be making a good try at it, especially at the time of one's physical death? something else?

 

[He is the way]

are you asking these questions rhetorically, or did you want me to actually answer them because you wish to follow up on them after that?


okay, so it sounds like LDS teach that keeping just those two commandments entitles a person to eternal life.

in your view, did Jesus teach that a person must keep those two commandments perfectly their entire life in order to obtain eternal life? or is it enough just to be making a good try at it, especially at the time of one's physical death? something else?

To answer your question I am reminded of what Jesus said:

(New Testament | Luke 18:18 - 30)

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother.
21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee.
29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Jesus reminded the ruler LOVING one's neighbor also included keeping the ten commandments, and even more it included being charitable or showing genuine LOVE and concern for one's neighbor. He then went on to say that all things are possible with God. No one is perfect and through the atonement we can repent of our sins and turn to God with full purpose of heart. Jesus said:

(New Testament | Matthew 6:19 - 24)

19 ¶ Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 ¶ No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

It is also wise not to procrastinate the day of repentance:

(New Testament | Luke 21:34 - 36)

34 ¶ And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.