LDS Joseph Smith was a Modalist

[notreligus]

If you grew up a member of a Restoration Movement church (which restoration movement are you talking about, though?) then you'd know that Joseph Smith's theology changed over time, and the original edition of the Book of Mormon has several verses in it that deeply suggests that Joseph Smith's view of God at the time he was writing the Book of Mormon was modalistic. I, too, was a member of a restoration church, and I, too, was modalistic because the BoM I used was one that was reverted back to the 1st edition (the one without all the changes.)

The original Restoration Movement began in Scotland in the late 1700s by John Glas and his son-in-law as prime figures in that movement. Essentially these men became the "new Presbyterians" who distanced themselves from the organized Presbyterian Church and its hierarchy in Britain. The Son-in-law, Robert Sandeman, came to America and established this Movement in America. His followers were called Sandemanians. From this original bunch came Christian Science, Christadelphians and others. The group I was part of called themselves the Restoration Movement too but their emphasis was water baptism. Walter Scott, who came from Scotland about the same time as Sandeman, initiated the principal that this second Restoration Movement emphasized. Walter Scott claimed that the Lord showed him that the Church had stopped practicing water baptism for the remission of sins and had done so for the past 1500 years (that is 1500 years from approx. the year 300 A.D. to 1800 A.D.) so he felt that immersion for the remission of sins needed to be RESTORED. Scott later joined with Barton Stone, Thomas Campell, and Alexander Campbell - all previously had been Presbyterian preachers - and formed the Disciples of Christ. A splinter group, who opposed the use of musical instruments, and they felt that northern congregations had treated southern congregations badly during the Civil War, split from the Disciples because and they formed the Churches of Christ. Immersion (water baptism) is still their main focus and they believe that no one is saved without having been fully immersed in water. They believe that Christ's blood is contacted in the water. Sidney Rigdon, of the Mormon Church, was formerly a close friend of Alexander Campbell and traveled with him to do preaching and debates. They traveled together on horseback. Sidney Rigdon and Alexander Campbell split over doctrine and Rigdon became a close associate of Joseph Smith, in Kirtland, Ohio.

 

[Peter1000]

The original Restoration Movement began in Scotland in the late 1700s by John Glas and his son-in-law as prime figures in that movement. Essentially these men became the "new Presbyterians" who distanced themselves from the organized Presbyterian Church and its hierarchy in Britain. The Son-in-law, Robert Sandeman, came to America and established this Movement in America. His followers were called Sandemanians. From this original bunch came Christian Science, Christadelphians and others. The group I was part of called themselves the Restoration Movement too but their emphasis was water baptism. Walter Scott, who came from Scotland about the same time as Sandeman, initiated the principal that this second Restoration Movement emphasized. Walter scott claimed that the Lord showed him that the Church had stopped practicing water baptism for the remission of sins and had done so for the past 1500 years (that is 1500 years from approx. the year 300 A.D. to 1800 A.D.) so he felt that immersion for the remission of sins.

Jesus did not just want to restore water baptism. I could make you a list of the important parts of the original first century church which Jesus Christ restored through JS. Not just water baptism. That was just one of a whole list of things Jesus was engaged in restoring.

When you read in the D&C that JS said that God had a body of flesh and bone, and His Son had a separate body of flesh and bone, and that that the HS was a 3rd member of the Godhead, but only had a body of spirit, did you stop and think about how this could be modalistic?

When JS said that he saw the Father and that the Son was standing on His right hand (just like Stephen, the first martyr of the first century church said) did you stop to think about how that relates to the BOM modalistic concept that you believed.

IOW did you take one or two scriptures and come up with JS was a modalist? Or did you take the time to research all of JS words and come up with the right conclusion that I had to do in order to stay in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

JS story seems to change over time, but I will tell you that as he received knowledge upon knowledge, and grace for grace, here a little and there a little, his doctrinal perspectives had to change also. He could not learn all there was to know about the Godhead in one visit. It took many visits and many revelations to come to know the truth about the relationship between God and His Son and the HS. And as those revelations poured in, so did JS knowledge of God change and grow. That is what a prophet does. He learns the truth and then declares it, and when that truth is expanded, he declares it again, and again, and again, until the people come to know the full truth, at least the part of the truth that God wants them to know.

The restorational movement was right on line. The churches or Christianity were off the path. JS was just the one chosen by God to bring about the restoration of all things pertaining to the KOG in this the last great dispensation. So reread all of what JS has given us, not just some of it.[/QUOTE]

 

[notreligus]

Jesus did not just want to restore water baptism. I could make you a list of the important parts of the original first century church which Jesus Christ restored through JS. Not just water baptism. That was just one of a whole list of things Jesus was engaged in restoring.

When you read in the D&C that JS said that God had a body of flesh and bone, and His Son had a separate body of flesh and bone, and that that the HS was a 3rd member of the Godhead, but only had a body of spirit, did you stop and think about how this could be modalistic?

When JS said that he saw the Father and that the Son was standing on His right hand (just like Stephen, the first martyr of the first century church said) did you stop to think about how that relates to the BOM modalistic concept that you believed.

IOW did you take one or two scriptures and come up with JS was a modalist? Or did you take the time to research all of JS words and come up with the right conclusion that I had to do in order to stay in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints?

JS story seems to change over time, but I will tell you that as he received knowledge upon knowledge, and grace for grace, here a little and there a little, his doctrinal perspectives had to change also. He could not learn all there was to know about the Godhead in one visit. It took many visits and many revelations to come to know the truth about the relationship between God and His Son and the HS. And as those revelations poured in, so did JS knowledge of God change and grow. That is what a prophet does. He learns the truth and then declares it, and when that truth is expanded, he declares it again, and again, and again, until the people come to know the full truth, at least the part of the truth that God wants them to know.

The restorational movement was right on line. The churches or Christianity were off the path. JS was just the one chosen by God to bring about the restoration of all things pertaining to the KOG in this the last great dispensation. So reread all of what JS has given us, not just some of it.

[/QUOTE]
I think you have confused me with someone else here. I don't give credence to anything claimed by Joseph Smith. He was a crook who was told to leave the state of New York or be arrested for defrauding people with his magic rocks as though he were able to use those to predict the financial futures of individuals.

 

[Peter1000]

I think you have confused me with someone else here. I don't give credence to anything claimed by Joseph Smith. He was a crook who was told to leave the state of New York or be arrested for defrauding people with his magic rocks as though he were able to use those to predict the financial futures of individuals.

I was responding to your information posted on post #121. You said you were part of a restoration group that focused on water baptism. So I was just letting you know that as water baptism is part of the restoration of all things talked about in the NT, it is only 1 of a long list of first century church concepts that were restored to the earth by Jesus Christ through the prophet JS.

BTW, JS was not thrown out of NY for defrauding people with his magic rocks. He was driven out of NY by persecutors of religion, who were afraid of:
1) his publication of the Book of Mormon, a major religious achievement for a 27 year old nobody (3,000 copies of a 531 page book from a nobody about intricate Christian doctrine that is the most profound religious publication in the last 1800 years and is still a growing force in the world for good today, 188 years later).
2)and suddenly, a large number of people that were joining the church, who had been looking for a man with authority to stand up and declare that the restoration movement was true, a new prophet of God, like Moses and Peter and Paul, that declared with authority the true church of Jesus Christ was a real and tangible thing, and show evidences of its existence.

This upstart nobody scared the living daylights out of the holy ministers and pastors of that day and they took the lead to persecute and push this new prophet out of the lives of their parishoners, for fear they would join him, which many did, and are still joining him today.

 

[drstevej]

I think the Apostle Peter is more accurate than Peter 1000


2 Peter 2
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

 

[Peter1000]

I think the Apostle Peter is more accurate than Peter 1000


2 Peter 2
2 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with fabricated stories. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

The Apostle Peter was surely right. He was talking in about 50ad, about false prophets in his day, not 1830ad. So we know there were false prophets among the first century church and that is why the apostasy took place, which necessitated the restoration movement that was taken over by a true prophet of God, JS. Through JS, Jesus Christ restored the true church and all the lost and trampled on doctrines, principles, and ordinances that pertained to the first century saints.

So the Apostle Peter was right to warn the saints in his day, of the impending apostasy, and the Apostle Peter knew JS would be the person chosen in our day to restore the true church by the hand of Jesus Christ.

The Apostle Peter knew this because he was sent from Jesus Christ to JS to give him the keys of the Kingdom of heaven, the same keys that Jesus had given to him in the NT. In fact Peter, James, and John were sent to JS to give him those keys to have the true authority to usher in the restoration movement and to renew the church of the first century church in our day. It is still going strong.

 

[drstevej]

The Apostle Peter knew this because he was sent from Jesus Christ to JS to give him the keys of the Kingdom of heaven

How convenient for the Mormon Myth, does Warren Jeffs have the keys now?

 

[Peter1000]

How convenient for the Mormon Myth, does Warren Jeffs have the keys now?

It is a rather compelling story line isn't it?

Jeffs comes from a line of people in the church that believe that plural marriage should not have ended. And so when the prophet Wilford Woodruff received a revelation from the Lord that it was time to end the practice, for it had fulfilled its purpose, Jeffs fathers suddently decided he was not a true prophet anymore, and decided to break off of the church and form their own little community.

So when they broke off, they lost the authority that exists in the true church and at that time they became a church with no authority to bind and loose because they hold no keys.

Therefore the prophet they chose was a false prophet and then all the way down to Jeffs who is also a false prophet, without the authority to act for God in any way.

Just like the Oriental Orthodox church that broke away from the Catholic church around 400ad. They too, lost all the authority that the Catholic church had because they were no longer part of the Catholic church.

The only difference in the OO and Jeffs is that OO became a rival to the Catholic and has been a rival from the beginning. Whereas Jeffs little band has never amounted to anything of a rival to the Church of Jesus Christ in Salt Lake City, which was prophesied by BY. By said there would be break offs of the church, but none would rival the true church, and that has been true from the first.

 

[BigDaddy4]

I think @dzheremi would disagree with your assessment of the OO church.

 

[Peter1000]

I think @dzheremi would disagree with your assessment of the OO church.

Of course he would. But if the successor of Peter is the one that holds the keys that Peter received from Jesus Chris, that successor is not in his church. That successor is in the Catholic church, so his church decided to split off of the Catholic church and they made a desicion they had their own authority from Mark, who they look to as the founder of Christianity in Egypt.

The problem is that Mark was not even an apostle of Jesus Christ, and did not have the keys of loosing and binding as Peter had, that resided in the Catholic church.

At 400ad the Catholic church included east and west and all churches except for the 00 and the Montanists, and a few other smaller break offs.

Before the 00 split off, there was still only 1 Christian church. There cannot be 2 or one of them is the imposter. In this case, 00 is the imposter not having the authority to do the work of God.

God cannot have 2 churches of the same Jesus Christ, who believe in different doctrines and ordinances and teaching different ways to salvation. So one is an imposter. At 400ad it was simple to tell which one was the imposter and did not have the keys of authority.

 

[Rescued One]

Of course he would. But if the successor of Peter is the one that holds the keys that Peter received from Jesus Chris, that successor is not in his church. That successor is in the Catholic church, so his church decided to split off of the Catholic church and they made a desicion they had their own authority from Mark, who they look to as the founder of Christianity in Egypt.

The problem is that Mark was not even an apostle of Jesus Christ, and did not have the keys of loosing and binding as Peter had, that resided in the Catholic church.

At 400ad the Catholic church included east and west and all churches except for the 00 and the Montanists, and a few other smaller break offs.

Before the 00 split off, there was still only 1 Christian church. There cannot be 2 or one of them is the imposter. In this case, 00 is the imposter not having the authority to do the work of God.

God cannot have 2 churches of the same Jesus Christ, who believe in different doctrines and ordinances and teaching different ways to salvation. So one is an imposter. At 400ad it was simple to tell which one was the imposter and did not have the keys of authority.

This is the Mormon take on events as explained by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They wouldn't want to try to defend your religion, would they?

Joseph Smith said, "All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it." Apparently your church apostatized from Joseph Smith's:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

D&C 8
2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

D&C 130
3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

Book of Mormon, Alma 34
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.



The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter. He works in perfect unity with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.1

As a personage of spirit, the Holy Ghost can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.2
The Holy Ghost Testifies of Truth - ensign

 

[Peter1000]

This is the Mormon take on events as explained by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. They wouldn't want to try to defend your religion, would they?

Joseph Smith said, "All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it." Apparently your church apostatized from Joseph Smith's:

Doctrine and Covenants 130
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

D&C 8
2 Yea, behold, I will tell you in your mind and in your heart, by the Holy Ghost, which shall come upon you and which shall dwell in your heart.

D&C 130
3 John 14:23—The appearing of the Father and the Son, in that verse, is a personal appearance; and the idea that the Father and the Son dwell in a man’s heart is an old sectarian notion, and is false.

Book of Mormon, Alma 34
36 And this I know, because the Lord hath said he dwelleth not in unholy temples, but in the hearts of the righteous doth he dwell; yea, and he has also said that the righteous shall sit down in his kingdom, to go no more out; but their garments should be made white through the blood of the Lamb.



The Holy Ghost is the third member of the Godhead. He is a personage of spirit, without a body of flesh and bones (see D&C 130:22). He is often referred to as the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of the Lord, or the Comforter. He works in perfect unity with Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ.1

As a personage of spirit, the Holy Ghost can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.2
The Holy Ghost Testifies of Truth - ensign

The bible says the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father, this is not a rare piece of information. The question is, how is the Father the Son. and how is the Son the Father? That is the question.

Normal Christianity came to the conclusion in 325ad that they were 3 persons in 1 God.

JS, however, saw 2 persons standing next to each other at his vision, the same that hapened to Stephen in his vision. Therefore JS was priviledged to know that God the Father and His Son are not 3 persons in 1 God.

So how do we answer that JS said Jesus in the Father and the Father is the Son. Here it is. They are so much aligned with each other, and so unified, and so perfectly in unison, that the Father can speak as if he is the Son, and the Son can speak as if he is the Father.
There is no difference between the 2. The Son is the Father and the Father is the Son.
The entire writings of JS explain how this is so, and that they can still be 2 completely separate and distinct persons. You just have to be a student of the words that Jesus Christ has given to the prophet JS, in order to have a full knowledge of God and His Son.

With these scriptures that you have presented here, you are on the road to understanding what I am talking about.

 

[Rescued One]

The bible says the Father is in the Son, and the Son is in the Father, this is not a rare piece of information. The question is, how is the Father the Son. and how is the Son the Father? That is the question.

Normal Christianity came to the conclusion in 325ad that they were 3 persons in 1 God.

JS, however, saw 2 persons standing next to each other at his vision, the same that hapened to Stephen in his vision. Therefore JS was priviledged to know that God the Father and His Son are not 3 persons in 1 God.

So how do we answer that JS said Jesus in the Father and the Father is the Son. Here it is. They are so much aligned with each other, and so unified, and so perfectly in unison, that the Father can speak as if he is the Son, and the Son can speak as if he is the Father.
There is no difference between the 2. The Son is the Father and the Father is the Son.
The entire writings of JS explain how this is so, and that they can still be 2 completely separate and distinct persons. You just have to be a student of the words that Jesus Christ has given to the prophet JS, in order to have a full knowledge of God and His Son.

With these scriptures that you have presented here, you are on the road to understanding what I am talking about.

More fiction from Mormons.

The early Joseph Smith falls to the right of traditional Trinitarianism by “confounding the persons.” The later Joseph Smith falls to the left of it by “dividing the substance.” In other words he begins teaching modalism and ends teaching polytheism, or at least henotheism (though Mormons have preferred using the term plurality of Gods).3
Joseph Smith’s Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Is Jesus God?

Absolutely!!!
⚘

 

[Rescued One]

The Father is NOT the Son and the Son is NOT the Father.

• Father — Galatians 1:1
• Son — John 20:28
• Spirit — Acts 5:3-4

The three persons in one God were present when the Son was baptized! (Matt. 3:13-17).

I will NEVER again be a student of Joseph Smith's false teachings, thanks be to God.

 

[Peter1000]

More fiction from Mormons.

The early Joseph Smith falls to the right of traditional Trinitarianism by “confounding the persons.” The later Joseph Smith falls to the left of it by “dividing the substance.” In other words he begins teaching modalism and ends teaching polytheism, or at least henotheism (though Mormons have preferred using the term plurality of Gods).3
Joseph Smith’s Modalism: Sabellian Sequentialism or Swedenborgian Expansionism?

Find me a biblical scripture that has the words, "Confounding the persons" or "dividing the susbstance". Please find me the scripture. IOW these phrases are non-biblical.

 

[Peter1000]

Absolutely!!!
⚘

Then there has to be 2 Gods. What God and what Father was Jesus talking about in John 20:17?

 

[ItIsFinished!]

Then there has to be 2 Gods. What God and what Father was Jesus talking about in John 20:17?

Do you believe in the Triune God?

 

[Peter1000]

Do you believe in the Triune God?

If you believe in the bible and read it, you must believe in the Trinity. But what form of the Trinity is a whole other question.

For instance I believe the Trinity is composed of 3 separate and distinct Persons. 1) God the Father, 2) God the Son, and 3) God the Holy Spirit.

I believe they are separate and distinct because of John 20:17.

Do you believe this scripture?

 

[drstevej]

For instance I believe the Trinity is composed of 3 separate and distinct Persons. 1) God the Father, 2) God the Son, and 3) God the Holy Spirit.

What about Heavenly Mom? So isn't it a Quadrinity or is Heavenly Father unequally yoked?