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Featured LDS Joseph Smith was a Modalist

Discussion in 'Debate Other Religions & Faiths' started by Phoebe Ann, Oct 12, 2018.

  1. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Compare Luke 10:22 in the King James Version Bible to Lu 10:23 in the Joseph Smith Translation.

    Lu 10:23JST
    All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
    Luke
    :scratch:
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
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  2. mmksparbud

    mmksparbud Well-Known Member

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    hhmmm---what's a modalist?
     
  3. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Oneness Pentacostals among others who don't know the Trinity. They say there is only person who manifests himself in different modes: the three divine persons are actually only one person at a time.
     
  4. Benjamin Calvary

    Benjamin Calvary Persistent - testing the system.

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    Basically someone who teaches that Godhead is only one person, who playacts, or wears a different 'job' hat (or personality) at differing times. Think of yourself, as a single person in a whole town, who when others show up, you don the 'hat' of town sheriff, then later the 'hat' of town mechanic, and later the 'hat' of town mayor, each with a personality unlike the other, like split-personality in a single person.

    Modalism, meaning differing "modes", like a single vehicle, but multiple gears to shift to.

    There are similarly related ideologies, such as Sabellianism - Link, Oneness, and so on, all heretical and dangerous, destroying the scriptural truth of the Three Persons, the person of the Father, the person of the Son, and the person of the Holy Ghost.
     
  5. Benjamin Calvary

    Benjamin Calvary Persistent - testing the system.

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    Now, was Joseph Smith a total Modalist, hard to say, since he also supposedly had a vision of the "Father" and the "Son" at the same time appear to him in the groves. However, that story has multiple changes in each telling (was it 9 differing? something like that, I forget), so I wonder if there is any other material like the one in the OP to be sure.

    Also, in LDS theology, the Son was to literally be a sexual offspring of His Father (JEHOVAH) and unnamed 'mother' and later also 'the Father's' daughter (later human, 'Mary") whom 'the Father' also had relations with (as I understand it). Thus each LDS, according to the theology, have two fathers (Heavenly and earthly) and two mothers each, but never-the-less, the Son would be in that case a differing person from the Father also.

    The OP citation, would make a case for some kind of Modalism, that is for sure, but it may be that Joseph Smith just had a mixed bag of theology at times. Perhaps we could get a date on the OP statement, and see if there was progression towards or away from Modalism, or if it just popped up here and there throughout.

    We need about 2-3 statements with time association to begin a track record.
     
  6. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    Joseph Smith was a Tritheist I believe not a Modalist.
     
  7. drstevej

    drstevej Light Attracts Bugs Staff Member Chaplain Supporter

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    Q: if this is so does, Heavenly Mom get 1 Mothers Day card or two?
    A: neither, she gets none.
     
  8. Ironhold

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    Head's a bit foggy because I had a busy morning, so I'm having trouble remembering what specifically I read once that talked more about this.

    But that being said -

    Joseph Smith Translation: John 1: 1-34

    The link above will take you to the JST for John chapter 1.

    Much of the chapter was redone to make it clear that Jesus and Heavenly Father are separate personages, yet maintain an incredibly close relationship.

    Or look at the JST for John 6:44 -

    Joseph Smith Translation: John 6: 44

    Again, similar changes.

    On the whole, the JST is - like the Great Intercessory Prayer and other such passages - consistent in noting that Heavenly Father and Jesus are separate beings. So saying, in general, "Oh, he was a modalist" is not an accurate assessment.
     
  9. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    1830 Book of Mormon:

    And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest, is the mother of God, after the manner of the flesh.

    And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, yea, even the Eternal Father!

    Current Text:

    And he said unto me, Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God. (1 Nephi 11:18)

    And the angel said unto me, behold the Lamb of God, even the Son of the Eternal Father! (1 Nephi 11:21)

    Joseph Smith's Changing Doctrine of Deity
     
  10. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Not exactly. I would call him a henotheist. Worthy Mormons become gods.
     
  11. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    There goes your obsession with Heavenly Mother.
     
  12. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Mormon doctrines and teachings are not set in cement.

    Yep.

    Time is scarce!
     
  13. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    JS did change this scripture. He was the translator and he was the one that edited this scripture.

    It is true that Jesus is God and it is true that one of Jesus's names is the Eternal Father.

    So as to keep the identites of the Godhead from being confused, JS decided to make the change so as not to confuse Jesus Christ, the Son of God, with God the Father, the God and Father of Jesus (John 20:17)
     
  14. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Lame. Mormons are still contradicting earlier teachings.

    JSTLu 10:23
    All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  15. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    The Father is the Son and the Son is the Father. The secret is that the Son can act as if he is the Father. And the Father can act as if he is the Son.

    They are so unified in Their purpose it is as if They are one. But they are not one Entity. They are 3 Entities, but one in purpose. That is the solution to all biblical scriptures about the Father and the Son.

    Answer this question: If the Father and the Son are one Entity. How can billions of people who have been taught by the apostles be one, in exactly the same way as the Father and the son are one? (See John 17:21)
     
  16. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    That's not the excuse you gave in post #13. Are you fishing for answers? The Father and Son are not 3 entities even in Mormonism. Wake up and pay attention please.

    "In 1834-35, during the Kirtland, Ohio period, Joseph Smith made a major departure from the Book of Mormon emphasis that the Father and Son are the same person. While still apparently maintaining that there is only one God (monotheism), he began to teach that there are two persons within the Godhead — the Father and the Son. Theologians call this 'binitarianism.' This second stage in Joseph's teaching regarding Deity is spelled out in the 'Lectures on Faith.' These seven 'lectures on theology' were approved for inclusion in the Doctrine and Covenants by a Conference vote of the LDS Church on August 17, 1835. They appeared in all English editions of the D&C until their unexplained removal in 1921 without a General Conference vote.9 Lecture Five explicitly teaches that there are two persons in the Godhead:

    "There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things — by whom all things were created and made . . . They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made and fashioned like unto man.

    "A question and answer section in Lecture Five confirms its binitarian view of the God:

    "Q. How many personages are there in the Godhead?
    A. Two: the Father and the Son."
    Joseph Smith's Changing Doctrine of Deity

    Another link:
    Lectures on Faith
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2018
  17. Al Masihi

    Al Masihi Well-Known Member Supporter

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    He believed the trinity was actually three gods, with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit acting as three separate deities.
     
  18. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    True, but not at first. At first, he thought Jesus and the Father were only one person. He also claimed that the father started out as a man and became a God.
     
  19. Peter1000

    Peter1000 Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 28:9-10 King James Version (KJV)
    9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.
    10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

    Isaiah tells us that the fullness of the knowledge of God cannot be given in one setting.
    We must learn precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

    Why must we learn this way? Because of what happened to Paul, in Corinth. He tried to feed them meat, when the Corinthians were not even able to live by the milk. He gave them the milk concept, but he knew they were not able to receive the meat concept, so he did not even give it.

    The BOM confirms what Isaiah says:
    2 Nephi 28:29-30
    29 Wo be unto him that shall say: We have received the word of God, and we need no more of the word of God, for we have enough!

    30 For behold, thus saith the Lord God: I will give unto the children of men line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little; and blessed are those who hearken unto my precepts, and lend an ear unto my counsel, for they shall learn wisdom; for unto him that receiveth I will give more; and from them that shall say, We have enough, from them shall be taken away even that which they have.

    Nephi is confirming what Isaiah taught, that we are given line upon line, precept upon precept and if we receive it, I the Lord will give more.

    Do you want more, or do you want to be like the Corinthians?

    So finally to answer your question.
    JS did not learn everything about the Father and the Son in one meeting. He learned about their nature precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little. So he very well could have written at times, what he knew about the Godhead, and then later learned more and later more. Do you think he thought to himself, wow, the people aren't going to believe me, because I have already said X about this subject. No, he pressed on, and adjusted his written word to correlate with his new knowledge.

    So the idea that the nature of the Godhead could have changed during JS lifetime and beyond is not a proof that the prophets are false, but a truth that they are like Isaiah and Nephi, learning precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, there a little, and as they did the Lord gave them more information about Himself and the Godhead.

    Do we now know everything there is to know about God? I hope you understand that the answer is NO. And why do we not know everything about God, because we would not be able to receive it. We must learn milk before we get meat. And meat before we get the full dinner and dessert.

    Eventually we will know all about God.
     
  20. Phoebe Ann

    Phoebe Ann From Mormonism to Christ Supporter

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    Joseph Smith claimed knowledge via revelation from God. But he either lied or was deceived by Satan.

    It is very interesting to note that the Mormon Historian Joseph Fielding Smith has claimed that there is no truth in the statement that there have been thousands of changes in the Book of Mormon. He was reported as saying the following at the fall conference of 1961:

    "During the past week or two I have received a number of letters from different parts of the United States written by people, some of whom at least are a little concerned because they have been approached by enemies of the Church and enemies of the Book of Mormon, who have made the statement that there have been one or two or more thousand changes in the Book of Mormon since the first edition was published. Well, of course, there is no truth in that statement.

    "It is true that when the Book of Mormon was printed the printer was a man who was unfriendly. The publication of the book was done under adverse circumstances, and there were a few errors, mostly typographical — conditions that arise in most any book that is being published — but there was not one thing in the Book of Mormon or in the second edition or any other edition since that in any way contradicts the first edition, and such changes as were made were made by the Prophet Joseph Smith because under those adverse conditions the Book of Mormon was published. But there was no change of doctrine.

    "Now, these Sons of Belial who circulate these reports evidently know better. I will not use the word that is in my mind." (The Improvement Era, December, 1961, pp. 924-925)
    Introduction to 3,913 Changes


    I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book.
    Joseph Smith, Jr., History of the Church, 4:461

    The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, “the only true and living church upon the face of the earth. The Book of Mormon brings men to Christ. The Doctrine and Covenants brings men to Christ’s kingdom, even he whole earth” (D&C 1:30). I know that.
    The Book of Mormon is the “keystone” of our religion, and the Doctrine and Covenants is the capstone, with continuing latter-day revelation. The Lord has placed His stamp of approval on both the keystone and the capstone.
    Ezra Taft Benson, “The Book of Mormon and the Doctrine and Covenants,” Liahona, Jan 2005, 8

    "...the Book of Mormon remains secure, unchanged and unchangeable, ...But with the Bible it was not and is not so....it was once in the sole and exclusive care and custody of an abominable organization (Christianity), founded by the devil himself, likened prophetically unto a great whore, whose great aim and purpose was to destroy the souls of men in the name of religion. In these hands it ceased to be the book it once was."
    - Apostle Bruce R. McConkie, The Joseph Smith Translation, p. 12, 13
     
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