LDS Joseph Smith was a Modalist

[Rescued One]

I take it back! Some Mormons are henotheists and some are polytheists.

1971:
When the Lord created men and placed them on earth, he gave “them commandments that they should love and serve him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.” (D&C 20:19.)
How to Worship - ensign

2006:
He is the Savior and the Redeemer of the world. I believe in Him. I declare His divinity without equivocation or compromise. I love Him. I speak His name in reverence and wonder. I worship Him as I worship His Father, in spirit and in truth. I thank Him and kneel before His wounded feet and hands and side, amazed at the love He offers me.
In These Three I Believe - liahona

2004-Now
God the Father is the Supreme Being in whom we believe and whom we worship. He is the ultimate Creator, Ruler, and Preserver of all things. He is perfect, has all power, and knows all things. He “has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s” (D&C 130:22).
“God the Father,” True to the Faith (2004), 74–76
God the Father

 

[notreligus]

Joseph Smith was not a modalist.

To understand modalism, think of a Transformer toy. You might be able to turn that toy into a Jeep, or a gun, or a motorcycle, as an example. Modalists believe that God transforms himself into the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit on an as-needed basis.

Joseph Smith taught that Jesus was one of many souls that God had created. That's why we often hear that Mormons believe that Jesus and Lucifer are brothers as both were created souls.

Mormons often have quite a number of children as they believe it is their duty to procreate persons in whom these waiting souls are able to enter.

 

[Rescued One]

Joseph Smith was not a modalist.

Believe me, I understand Mormonism and modalism. Joseph Smith was a modalist at first. His doctrine of deity changed.

Mormonism teaches that everyone including the Father, Jesus, and Satan always existed as intelligences. We aren't actually created.

I've studied Mormonism for more than fifty years.

Mormons often have quite a number of children as they believe it is their duty to procreate persons in whom these waiting souls are able to enter.

They are more relaxed on that teaching now. I (and they) would use the word spirits rather than souls.

 

[Rescued One]

Mormons who keep ALL the commandments will be gods.

Doctrine and Covenants 132
20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

God is God because He is the embodiment of all faith and all power and all priesthood. The life He lives is named eternal life.

And the extent to which we become like Him is the extent to which we gain His faith, acquire His power, and exercise His priesthood. And when we have become like Him in the full and true sense, then we also shall have eternal life.

Faith and priesthood go hand in hand. Faith is power and power is priesthood. After we gain faith, we receive the priesthood. Then, through the priesthood, we grow in faith until, having all power, we become like our Lord.
Bruce R. McConkie, From a general priesthood session address titled “The Doctrine of the Priesthood,” Ensign, May 1982, 32–34.
The Power of God - ensign

Doctrine and Covenants 76
94 They who dwell in his presence are the church of the Firstborn; and they see as they are seen, and know as they are known, having received of his fulness and of his grace;

95 And he makes them equal in power, and in might, and in dominion.

 

[Anto9us]

Now, was Joseph Smith a total Modalist, hard to say, since he also supposedly had a vision of the "Father" and the "Son" at the same time appear to him in the groves.

Seeing Father and Son at same time -- that proves JS was not a Modalist at that time.
IF Phoebe says JS was Modalist before - fine.

The biblical passage about the baptism of Jesus blows Modalism out of the water -- the Spirit is descending like a dove, The Father is speaking, Jesus is being baptized by John -- all 3 persons of the Trinity acting at the same time...

 

[Rescued One]

Seeing Father and Son at same time -- that proves JS was not a Modalist at that time.
IF Phoebe says JS was Modalist before - fine.

The biblical passage about the baptism of Jesus blows Modalism out of the water -- the Spirit is descending like a dove, The Father is speaking, Jesus is being baptized by John -- all 3 persons of the Trinity acting at the same time...

The reason I came up with modalism as his first teaching was from some early statements that he made.

Smith wrote several accounts of the vision beginning in 1832, but none of the accounts were published until the 1840s.[1] Though Smith had described other visions, the First Vision was essentially unknown to early Latter Day Saints; Smith's experience did not become important in the Latter Day Saint movement until the early-20th century, when it became the embodiment of the Latter Day Saint restoration.[2] The First Vision also corroborated distinctive Mormon doctrines such as the bodily nature of God the Father and the uniqueness of Mormonism as the only true path to salvation.[3]
First Vision - Wikipedia

The JST (Inspired Version) Bible:
Lu 10:23
All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.
Luke

 

[Anto9us]

The 'first vision' has so MANY different versions -- it's so ludicrous...

 

[Rescued One]

1820

Joseph Smith claimed, according to his 1842 published history, that due to a revival in the neighborhood he went into the woods to pray and asked God which church to join. Supposedly, two heavenly beings appeared and told him that all of the churches were wrong. From this time forward he supposedly understood and taught that God and Jesus each had a physical body and were totally separate deities.

However, many problems surface when the documents are studied. For one thing, there is no historical evidence that such a revival happened that year in his town. This is documented in Inventing Mormonism. He later claimed that he received severe persecution during his early years for stating he had this vision yet there is no published mention of this vision by either Mormons or non-Mormons until 1840. Also, there is no evidence he told people between 1820 and 1838 that he had actually seen God in this vision. There is no evidence that he was teaching that God and Jesus were totally separate deities with bodies prior to 1838.


1830

Book of Mormon — teaches Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one God (i.e. 2 Nephi 31:21; Mormon 7:7; Mosiah 15:1-5; 3 Nephi 11:27)*

Father and Son are same person (i.e. Ether 3:14)

Title Page: "...to the convincing of the Jew and Gentile that Jesus is the Christ, the ETERNAL GOD, manifesting himself unto all nations."

God is a spirit (Alma 18:26-28; 22:8-11), no teaching that Father has a physical body.

Modalism — The Book of Mormon teaches three modes or expressions of one god.**

First Vision Article

 

[drstevej]

 

[Peter1000]

Look what Stephen, the first century martyr sees.
Exactly the same as JS. What do you think?

 

[drstevej]

What do you think?

Heavenly Mom is a Mormon heresy resulting in embarrassed silence.

 

[Peter1000]

Heavenly Mom is a Mormon heresy resulting in embarrassed silence.

You go to Heavenly Mother when you have been caught in a problem, and you don't know what to say about it.

You showed us a picture of JS and God the Father and Jesus Christ and I think you were snickering at it.

I then showed you a picture of a Christian painting of Stephen being martyred, but looking up into the heavens and seeing the same God the Father and Jesus Christ as JS saw.

Kind of takes your breath away doesn't it, that JS would have got it right.

So right, that you had to fall back on your safety valve Mother in Heaven scenerio to deflect from your inability to defend Stephen's vision, with Trinity logic.

 

[drstevej]

Peter you avoid Heavenly Mom -- a doctrine that shows the D-I-Y nature of Mormonism.

The paintings are not scripture. The first is an imaginary event, the later is recorded in the Bible.\\ Mormonism is a heretical cult.

 

[Anto9us]

I would not say that it "takes my breath away", Peter, to see similarity in a painting of Stephen's vision and a painting of JS's vision.

Biblically, an issue is WHY WAS JESUS STANDING?

Many passages say Jesus is seated at the right hand of God, others that He is simply "at the right hand of God", and one explanation is that Jesus stood at the occasion of Stephen's death to honor His first martyr.

IN any case, the two paintings are artist's conceptions. The one of JS's vision shows the Father and Son to look exactly alike, being ostensibly the same age; really the Stephen vision shows basically the same thing

 

[Anto9us]

There is a famous painting by Caraggio of "Paul falling off his horse" on the road to Damascus -- it was done in 1601, too late to have influenced Calvin who allegedly wrote in a Commentary that "Paul fell off his horse in fear".

I doubt that Calvin just "pulled it out of the air" about a horse - some tradition existed I am sure.

Two other paintings way before Caraggio are known of with Paul falling off of a horse.

The Bible -- in FOUR accounts of Damascus road experience -- makes no mention of Paul on a horse at all.

We have Manger scenes with the Magi present; yet the Bible says the Wise Men found the child IN A HOUSE. Only shepherds were present at the Manger, no Wise Men; of whom it was never said that there were THREE Magi -- just three types of Gifts.

So we would do well to compare all religious art to actual scripture, lest we go around picturing a Nativity scene with "We three kings of Orient are - trying to smoke a loaded cigar" and the Little Drummer Boy tapping out pah-rumpa-pum-pum as Mary smiles at him...

Beyond this, Peter, this 'version' of "the first vision" is only ONE OF MANY SCENARIOES, and does not jive with other accounts of the vision, which speak sometimes of "many angels" or 'just Jesus'.

Still breathing here

 

[Anto9us]

 

[Anto9us]

Bing Crosby and David Bowie duet...

 

[Rescued One]

Excellent points, Auto9us! I always wondered about the Little Drummer Boy or figures of Santa kneeling before the infant Jesus. On the Sistine Chapel ceiling, God's finger reaches out to Adam. That's not in my Bible, but artists try to convey ideas we've never seen.

 

[Anto9us]

At least, Phoebe Ann, Michelangelo pictures God the Father as older than Jesus Himself like in the JS vision pic and the Stephen stoning pic...

Artists do indeed 'take liberties'

 

[Rescued One]

At least, Phoebe Ann, Michelangelo pictures God the Father as older than Jesus Himself like in the JS vision pic and the Stephen stoning pic...

Artists do indeed 'take liberties'

I'm an absolute art lover, and wouldn't mind having a private museum. I used to draw pictures all the time. Some art is very imaginative and should be recognized as such.

I don't recall seeing Jesus on the Sistine ceiling but I haven't been there since 1964.