LDS Joseph Smith Started a False Religion

mmksparbud

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Both God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ have bodies of flesh and bone and spirit. It is the spirit that gives life and dominates the flesh and bones, so it is not all spirit, but spirit is the focal point.

God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ are made of the same substance. It would be odd for one of Them to have an advantage over the other.

Absolutely not!!! They were both spirit--both the same prior to the birth of Jesus as a human. Retains His humanity now---God the Father was never human, never will be. That is something that you can not seem to grasp. That is what the bible teaches. JS was not of God or he would have known this. That is the supreme price that Jesus paid for us--He retains His humanity. He retains His divinity. How that is done is not for us to know, probably even after the resurrection we won't. God the Father was never human---He is God--He never BECAME God. He always was God. There is no assumption to being God. Jesus retains His Godhood and His humanity---another way in which He is not like us. We will become like His glorified human body--but we will never be able to attain Godhood. God is above all, always was and always will be. JS diminishes God with His concept of God was human before becoming God. He did that in order to come up with the abdominal lie that we, too can attain to be God. That is of the devil---God was never human, He never became God---God is God, there never will be another, not in any universe---period.
 
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withwonderingawe

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Are new bodies will be like Jesus’s We don’t a lot about them other than they not of the dust of the earth. as flesh and blood cant inherit eternity.

Blood no but flesh and bone yes.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

When Christ hung on the cross He gave up the ghost or his spirit they then pierced his side and every last drop of blood left his body.

When he was resurrected his quickening spirit (1 Cor 15: 45,) returned and lifted that body back up even though there was no blood in it. His body was living flesh and bone without blood coursing through his veins. His own spirit was now giving him life.

John 5:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will....
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

So Jesus can only do what he has sees his Father before him do, his Father has raised the dead and so will he, as the Father has a quickening spirit within him so does Christ.

How then can the Father be in the Son if God is not Spirit?

When I look in the mirror I see my earthly father, he is in me. My Heavenly Father is also in me because all light comes from him.

D&C 88
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things,

Jesus has a physical yet he says he dwells in the Father and we are to be one in them.
John 17
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
 
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Randy777

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Blood no but flesh and bone yes.

Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

When Christ hung on the cross He gave up the ghost or his spirit they then pierced his side and every last drop of blood left his body.

When he was resurrected his quickening spirit (1 Cor 15: 45,) returned and lifted that body back up even though there was no blood in it. His body was living flesh and bone without blood coursing through his veins. His own spirit was now giving him life.

John 5:
19 Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise.

20 For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

21 For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will....
26 For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

So Jesus can only do what he has sees his Father before him do, his Father has raised the dead and so will he, as the Father has a quickening spirit within him so does Christ.



When I look in the mirror I see my earthly father, he is in me. My Heavenly Father is also in me because all light comes from him.

D&C 88
11 And the light which shineth, which giveth you light, is through him who enlighteneth your eyes, which is the same light that quickeneth your understandings;
12 Which light proceedeth forth from the presence of God to fill the immensity of space—
13 The light which is in all things, which giveth life to all things,

Jesus has a physical yet he says he dwells in the Father and we are to be one in them.
John 17
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
The Spirit Jesus sent into us He received from the Father ref Jesus in us. Acts 2

God is Spirit thats how the Father is in the Son and that Spirt sent in Jesus name is how the Son is in a believer

That has nothing to do with looking into as mirror.
 
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Jane_Doe

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The Spirit Jesus sent into us He received from the Father ref Jesus in us. Acts 2

God is Spirit thats how the Father is in the Son and that Spirt sent in Jesus name is how the Son is in a believer

That has nothing to do with looking into as mirror.
(Just explaining different beliefs, not trying to change anyone's views)
Randy, both Athanasian Christians and LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 different persons (in 1 God, of course). Christ is not the Father, nor the Spirit. When the Spirit testifies of Christ, that's a different person than Christ.
Does that make sense?
 
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Randy777

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(Just explaining different beliefs, not trying to change anyone's views)
Randy, both Athanasian Christians and LDS Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 different persons (in 1 God, of course). Christ is not the Father, nor the Spirit. When the Spirit testifies of Christ, that's a different person than Christ.
Does that make sense?
I believe in 1 God the Father and 1 Lord Jesus Christ with the Spirit of the Soverign Lord as just that the Spirit of the One true God. the Father. There is only one Divine Spirit and that would be the Father as He is the one true God. Jesus received from the Father. Jesus has his own Spirit He is the image of the invisible God because the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. In that Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God. God in that context but as Gods firstborn He has always been the Son. not God in that context
 
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Jane_Doe

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I believe in 1 God the Father and 1 Lord Jesus Christ with the Spirit of the Soverign Lord as just that the Spirit of the One true God. the Father. There is only one Divine Spirit and that would be the Father as He is the one true God. Jesus received from the Father. Jesus has his own Spirit He is the image of the invisible God because the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. In that Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God. God in that context but as Gods firstborn He has always been the Son. not God in that context
So I take it you're not a Trinitarian then?
 
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Randy777

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So I take it you're not a Trinitarian then?
I note the word "Son"
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
 
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Rescued One

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I believe in 1 God the Father and 1 Lord Jesus Christ with the Spirit of the Soverign Lord as just that the Spirit of the One true God. the Father. There is only one Divine Spirit and that would be the Father as He is the one true God. Jesus received from the Father. Jesus has his own Spirit He is the image of the invisible God because the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. In that Jesus is the exact image of the wisdom and power of God. God in that context but as Gods firstborn He has always been the Son. not God in that context

If the thread is about the beliefs of the Latter-day Saints (Mormons) then only orthodox (Trinitarian) Christians and Mormons may participate in the thread.
 
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Randy777

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If the thread is about the beliefs of the Latter-day Saints (Mormons) then only orthodox (Trinitarian) Christians and Mormons may participate in the thread.
If you seek to follow the Son of God then you will have to note He uses truth.
Jesus to the Father:Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.

Fathers promise:‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of it. 33Exalted to the right hand of God, he has received from the Father the promised Holy Spirit and has poured out what you now see and hear. 34For David did not ascend to heaven, and yet he said,

Jesus calls the Father the one true God. If Jesus always was and always was God how then do you believe in ONE God for Jesus stated on the cross "Father into your hands i commit my spirit"

John 1:1 is cohesive with what I believe about the Son

He is all that the Father is He was with the Father at the beginning of creation (genesis) and the creation was made through Him and nothing was set in place in heaven without Him. He is before all things except the Father who He states is His God and our God.

If Jesus is not the Fathers Son then whose Son is he?
If Jesus always was and always was God then how did He become the Son?
The Father also testifies He is the God of Jesus and He is the One who set Jesus above all.
But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”e

Is Jesus God?
He never dies.
Yes, He is all that the Father is.
No, He has always been the Son.

How do you view the Spirit of God as a separate distinct "person" from the Father? As in a separate Spirit, will , and mind. Especially since the Father refers to that Spirit as His Own as in "MY Spirit" Jesus does not. And there is only ONE DIVINE spirit as in One God.

yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

By whose Spirit were the miracles performed by? Whose Spirit dwells in the Son with His Spirit? Whose Spirit raised Jesus from the dead? Whose Spirit was over the waters in Genesis?

Jesus received from the Father what you should see is that the Father has glorified His Firstborn above all His other Children as in the fullness was pleased to dwell in Him. From another will.

Can you show were the Father,(from whom all things came), received from any other being?

Rev 1:6
and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

The Father is in the Son and they are one.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.

Jesus has His own mind will and spirit as a son should but that can't be stated about the Spirit of God in regard to the Father.

But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

Hears from what source- The mind of the Spirit. The Father as its His Spirit. The Son as Jesus has been given such authority and the Fullness. Jesus wills and the HS will act just as the Father wills and His Spirit acts.

In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us through wordless groans. 27And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for God’s people in accordance with the will of God.


For who knows a person's thoughts except their own spirit within them? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.

So how do you state the Spirit of God is a separate distinct person from the Father. As in Own mind, will and spirit like the Son. There certainly is a oneness as its Gods very own Spirit. The Father, Son and Holy Spirit are one in that manner.
 
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Jane_Doe

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I note the word "Son"
Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”
So... are you a Trinitarian?
(A "yes" or "no, my views differ in X regard" will help simplify this conversation).
 
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Jane_Doe

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my view differs in that I believe Jesus has a beginning and has always been the son. Gods firstborn but Jesus is all that the Father is because all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Him. Not because he always was and alway was God. So I believe in One God the Father and One lord Jesus Christ and I don't believe the Spirit of God is a separate distinct being from the "Father". Separate defined as own person such as own will, own mind, own spirit. I believe as the Father states that Spirit is the Fathers own Spirit. So as the Fathers Spirit then the HS is divine by nature and one and the same with the Father. I believe The Father glorified the Son by giving His Spirit without limit (fullness) to His Firstborn (Jesus) therefore Jesus is a exact image of the wisdom and power of God. God in that context but as firstborn with His own spirit not God but Gods Son. I believe in the oneness between father and son as Jesu taught the Father living in Him. And certainly as the Spirit of God is the Fathers that is tHe Father. So they are one in unity of purpose. and tied together by the Fathers Spirit.

SO I do believe in the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. I just see the relationship different as I hold the Father is the one and only TRUE God and Jesus has always been His Son.
Ah, ok that helps clarify a lot. Thank you. Do you have any questions about my beliefs?
 
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Randy777

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Ah, ok that helps clarify a lot. Thank you. Do you have any questions about my beliefs?
I understand the NT message in depth I do admit I have trouble with some of your message (beliefs) but my purpose would to get you to see the add ons you accept as true were given under false motives not by God for your "good", but if you are never going to change then I see no purpose to continue the conversation. (Dialogue)
Peace
I will state I have the Spirit of Christ in me which I asked for by faith and have never believed in or followed JS teachings. What does that tell you?

Randy
 
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Jane_Doe

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I understand the NT message in depth I do admit I have trouble with some of your message (beliefs) but my purpose would to get you to see the add ons you accept as true were given under false motives not by God for your "good", but if you are never going to change then I see no purpose to continue the conversation. (Dialogue)
Peace
Peace to you as well :) I have enjoyed hearing about your views.
I will state I have the Spirit of Christ in me which I asked for by faith and have never believed in or followed JS teachings. What does that tell you?

Randy
I follow Jesus Christ. He speaks to each of us individually through His Spirit and collectively through His prophets (He speaks to them through His Spirit as well).
 
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The Holy Spirit is not the Father or the Son.

Jesus says (John 16:13), “When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come.” The combination of “He” and “the Spirit” an unusual grammatical construction in Greek, because “Spirit” is a neuter noun that normally would take a neuter pronoun, but the pronoun is masculine, “He” (literally, “that One”). The Holy Spirit isn’t a force; He’s a person, the third person of the eternal Trinity, fully God in every way.
- Steven J. Cole

Do not grieve the Holy Spirit . . . Do not quench the Spirit . . . Insulting the Spirit of grace (Ephesians 4:30, 1 Thessalonians 5:19, Hebrews 10:29).

Ephesians 4
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

1 Thessalonians 5
19 Quench not the Spirit.

Hebrews 10
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

The Holy Spirit can be sent:

John 14
25These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you. 26But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

John 16
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

The Holy Spirit is a teacher:

Luke 12
12 For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what ye ought to say.
 
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withwonderingawe

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The Spirit Jesus sent into us He received from the Father ref Jesus in us. Acts 2

God is Spirit thats how the Father is in the Son and that Spirt sent in Jesus name is how the Son is in a believer

That has nothing to do with looking into as mirror.

You and I have a different definition of what a spirit is and what the dwelling of the Spirit is. I'll try to break it down as to my understanding.

1, There is the spirit of love or greed or gentleness. When the Bible say 'our God is consuming fire' we all know he's not really but that he has wrath, it's an idiom. Same as in 2 Tim 1 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind". There's not really any being named 'the spirit of fear' instead it's a feeling.

2, We each have our own spirit being dwelling within our mortal bodies. This being has it's own will and gender. It is who we are. Jesus said the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. This being is matter, it is not a mind/logos acting outside of matter.

God the Father and Jesus/Yahweh each have their own spirits dwelling within their own physical bodies. They are separate beings. When Jesus gave up the ghost this was his own spirit leaving his body and going into paradise.

3, There are a number of titles used for The Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit or "his Spirit" meaning the Holy Ghost which the Father sends. He is a personage of spirit with no physical body as we know it yet he is of matter.

In Rom 8 Paul writes "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God". As a spirit being he can communicate directly with our spirits without appearing before us as Jesus does with Paul. This can be "the still small voice" 1 Kings 19:12, or a burning in our hearts Luke 24, those listening to Peter felt a prick in their hearts Acts 2. It can be an overwhelming experiences as Cornelius' family ent through as the Holy Ghost fell upon them, Acts 10.

Now how does this work, I'll use Eph 3 as my example;
"For this cause I bow my knees/pray unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,....
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love...."

The Holy Ghost comes and speaks to your individual spirit, you may actually hear a voice but most times there is this burning of the heart as the men on the road to Emmaus felt. Your mind is opened and there is a sudden understanding, there is peace yet overwhelming joy.

Now it says Christ will dwell in your hearts by faith which means our faith in him is born, we feel his love for us and in turn love him. It does not mean that Christ is actually inside of our hearts. *This I suppose is where we differ from Evangelicals, we see it as an allegory or idiom and you see it as literal.

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

As we continue in our Christian walk the Spirit will continue to guide us, to teach us and eventually we will be filled with the fulnes of God or we will comprehend all that God comprehends we will be in that sense one with him.
 
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Randy777

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You and I have a different definition of what a spirit is and what the dwelling of the Spirit is. I'll try to break it down as to my understanding.

1, There is the spirit of love or greed or gentleness. When the Bible say 'our God is consuming fire' we all know he's not really but that he has wrath, it's an idiom. Same as in 2 Tim 1 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind". There's not really any being named 'the spirit of fear' instead it's a feeling.

2, We each have our own spirit being dwelling within our mortal bodies. This being has it's own will and gender. It is who we are. Jesus said the flesh is weak but the spirit is willing. This being is matter, it is not a mind/logos acting outside of matter.

God the Father and Jesus/Yahweh each have their own spirits dwelling within their own physical bodies. They are separate beings. When Jesus gave up the ghost this was his own spirit leaving his body and going into paradise.

3, There are a number of titles used for The Holy Ghost, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit or "his Spirit" meaning the Holy Ghost which the Father sends. He is a personage of spirit with no physical body as we know it yet he is of matter.

In Rom 8 Paul writes "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God". As a spirit being he can communicate directly with our spirits without appearing before us as Jesus does with Paul. This can be "the still small voice" 1 Kings 19:12, or a burning in our hearts Luke 24, those listening to Peter felt a prick in their hearts Acts 2. It can be an overwhelming experiences as Cornelius' family ent through as the Holy Ghost fell upon them, Acts 10.

Now how does this work, I'll use Eph 3 as my example;
"For this cause I bow my knees/pray unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,....
That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man; That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love...."

The Holy Ghost comes and speaks to your individual spirit, you may actually hear a voice but most times there is this burning of the heart as the men on the road to Emmaus felt. Your mind is opened and there is a sudden understanding, there is peace yet overwhelming joy.

Now it says Christ will dwell in your hearts by faith which means our faith in him is born, we feel his love for us and in turn love him. It does not mean that Christ is actually inside of our hearts. *This I suppose is where we differ from Evangelicals, we see it as an allegory or idiom and you see it as literal.

18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

As we continue in our Christian walk the Spirit will continue to guide us, to teach us and eventually we will be filled with the fulnes of God or we will comprehend all that God comprehends we will be in that sense one with him.
Thank you for your thoughts. I am unable to discuss this topic (trinity) apart from orthodoxy. So I am leaving this topic alone.
 
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Thank you for your thoughts. I am unable to discuss this topic (trinity) apart from orthodoxy. So I am leaving this topic alone.

But your posts don't reflect Trinitarian Orthodoxy.
 
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