Joseph Smith, Polygamy, So what?

[stinkyjoe]

Hi everyone!

I'm back. For those who don't know me, I'm just a common Christian who is starting to doubt his roots and wonder if some "unorthodox" religion may be true, because I have some problems with some of the things I've been taught.

In my last thread, the subject of Joseph Smith and polygamy came out. I just read through another thread, "The 200th Anniversary of Joseph Smith", which also was filled with arguments about polygamy. I am more interested in knowing about doctrine, but this topic has been bothering me.

Is Joseph Smith disqualified as a prophet because he had more than one wife? If so, then we must throw out no less than 9 books of the Old Testament, for they were written by polygamists also. Moses was a polygamist, and wrote the first five books in the Bible. David was not only a polygamist, but was an aldulterer and a murderer (he killed a guy to cover up his adultry). He wrote Psalms. Solomon had hundreds of wives, and was also an idolater. He wrote Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon. Honestly, if we are to judge Joseph Smith as a false prophet for the reasons cited in the threads on this site, the Bible must also be questioned. Or are we to have a double standard (Is it okay for Bible prophets to be polygamists but not for others?)

I would like to see more doctrinary debate on this site, rather than trying to disprove a religion because of its leaders. I have taken a keen interest in Mormonism, but I am afraid I may be making a mistake if I join it. What is the problem with mormonism, if any, in terms of their doctrines?

 

[gort]

I'm not recalling where Moses was a polygamist. It was'nt till the Lord gave the Law where He mentions men having more than one wife. Man seemed to do that on their own.

So far in my studies of the OT, polygamy seems to bring trouble...

<><

 

[Swart]

In my last thread, the subject of Joseph Smith and polygamy came out. I just read through another thread, "The 200th Anniversary of Joseph Smith", which also was filled with arguments about polygamy. I am more interested in knowing about doctrine, but this topic has been bothering me.

Is Joseph Smith disqualified as a prophet because he had more than one wife? If so, then we must throw out no less than 9 books of the Old Testament, for they were written by polygamists also. Moses was a polygamist, and wrote the first five books in the Bible. David was not only a polygamist, but was an aldulterer and a murderer (he killed a guy to cover up his adultry). He wrote Psalms. Solomon had hundreds of wives, and was also an idolater. He wrote Proverbs, Ecclesiastes and the Song of Solomon. Honestly, if we are to judge Joseph Smith as a false prophet for the reasons cited in the threads on this site, the Bible must also be questioned. Or are we to have a double standard (Is it okay for Bible prophets to be polygamists but not for others?)

I would like to see more doctrinary debate on this site, rather than trying to disprove a religion because of its leaders. I have taken a keen interest in Mormonism, but I am afraid I may be making a mistake if I join it. What is the problem with mormonism, if any, in terms of their doctrines?

You make some good points here. Although I agree with you, rather than be dismissive, I think it is important to acknowledge the foibles of individual people.

Paul said in Thessalonians "Prove all things, hold fast to that which is good." IMO, one of the major purposes in ancient scripture is to demonstrate that God is the same today, yesterday and forever. If God could work with violent, primitive people with such poor character as in the past, how much more able is he able to work with us? Well, in some ways, far less. Our big problem today is pride. We think we are so great and marvellous that there is little room in our lives for God. The ancient people of the Bible were pretty bad, however, they recognised how bad they were and came before God with a broken heart and a contrite spirit and begged him for forgiveness shedding tears of contrition.

Prophets never were, are not now, and never will lead perfect lives. The question is, was this man in the service of God? Any issue (such as polygamy) that is an issue to you should be one that you study out before coming to a conclusion. For me, it never was a problem, I understood it in light of historical and modern perspectives.

I think you're taking a good approach here, looking at issues in isolation first to see their place in the total picture to see what relevence there is.

The message I have always given to people is don't believe what I say. Study things out in your mind from the scriptures and then ask God your questions, then believe what he has to say.

 

[Swart]

I'm not recalling where Moses was a polygamist. It was'nt till the Lord gave the Law where He mentions men having more than one wife. Man seemed to do that on their own.

I seem to remember an obscure reference somewhere, but I can't put my finger on it.

So far in my studies of the OT, polygamy seems to bring trouble...

I'd be inclined to agree with you there.

IMO, the purpose of polygamy is to raise a righteous nation very quickly. It was necessary for the Israelites because of their numbers were low compared to their enemies. Socially, it can only exist for short periods of time implemented as a social security net or as part of a class based hierarchy as a means of levelling that hierarchy.

 

[stinkyjoe]

I'm not recalling where Moses was a polygamist. It was'nt till the Lord gave the Law where He mentions men having more than one wife. Man seemed to do that on their own.

So far in my studies of the OT, polygamy seems to bring trouble...

<><

"And Moses was content to dwell with the man: and he gave Moses Zipporah his daughter." Exodus 2:21. (See also Exodus 18:1-6.)

"And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman." Numbers 12:1

 

[stinkyjoe]

Just a side-note to that last quotation. Miriam and Aaron seem to have challenged Moses' standing as prophet because of his polygamy (read on a little in Numbers 12.

 

[Darkelf]

What about JS marrying women who where already married to other men is that ok, some of those women where pregnant with there real husbands baby's when he married them I guess adultry is ok after all god told him to do it right.

 

[stinkyjoe]

What about JS marrying women who where already married to other men is that ok, some of those women where pregnant with there real husbands baby's when he married them I guess adultry is ok after all god told him to do it right.

Well, Bathsheba was married, wasn't she? We still revere David as a prophet...

I'm not defending Joseph Smith or his practices. I'm just saying we shouldn't have double standards for determining who is a prophet and who isn't. However, that is exactly what I am seeing in this forum.

 

[Romans5:1]

Is Joseph Smith disqualified as a prophet because he had more than one wife?

No, that is not disqualifies him. In fact, Joseph Smith is a prophet; a false prophet. He never uttered one prophecy that ever came to pass. And that is what disqualifies him as a prophet of God. His philandering was merely icing on the cake.

What is the problem with mormonism, if any, in terms of their doctrines?

Different God, different, Jesus, different Holy Spirit, different gospel, different humanity, different forgiveness, different salvation, different Church, different revelation, different sin, different Devil, etc., etc., etc., than what biblical Christianity ascribes to and teaches. If you have a more specific question, I'd be happy to entertain it, and I'm sure others would as well. Otherwise, your question is too broad to really answer. Care to give it another shot?

 

[stinkyjoe]

Different God, different, Jesus, different Holy Spirit, different gospel, different humanity, different forgiveness, different salvation, different Church, different revelation, different sin, different Devil, etc., etc., etc., than what biblical Christianity ascribes to and teaches. If you have a more specific question, I'd be happy to entertain it, and I'm sure others would as well. Otherwise, your question is too broad to really answer. Care to give it another shot?

Oay, why do you say their God is different?

As far as ppolygamy, if that is not what disqualifies him, why do people make such a big deal of it here, instead of concentrating on what DOES disqualify him?

 

[fatboys]

What about JS marrying women who where already married to other men is that ok, some of those women where pregnant with there real husbands baby's when he married them I guess adultry is ok after all god told him to do it right.

FB: Joseph Smith was sealed to married women. He was not married in the sense that we think of it in the temperal sense. Yes I know this is hard to understand the difference but there is a difference. Adultery is having sex with someone that is not your spouse. He did not have sex with any married woman, and in my own personal opinion, since there is not children except from Emma, that he did not have sex with any of his wives. When would he have time. I have been in the area and if you follow the history of Joseph Smith he was hounded and driven and did so many things, he would not have had time for any such thing. Emma complained many times to him about being gone all the time. Anyway facts with some of my own personal opinion.

 

[gort]

stinkyjoe quote:

"And Miriam and Aaron spake against Moses because of the Ethiopian woman whom he had married: for he had married an Ethiopian woman." Numbers 12:1

I stand corrected and thank you. alas, it still seems to have brought trouble.

<><

 

[Wrigley]

Well, Bathsheba was married, wasn't she? We still revere David as a prophet...

And if you read in the Bible he was severly corrected by God for his actions.

And, I've never looked at David as a prophet, also, I've never seen David referred to as a prophet. He was a King of Israel. He had prophets who counseled him though.

 

[christopher123]

Oay, why do you say their God is different?

Certainly the nature of God to a mormon is much different than to an OC. You can read many thread on this board going into the differences. That the nature is different, I don't think is debated, just whether it is the same god who is worshiped.

As far as ppolygamy, if that is not what disqualifies him, why do people make such a big deal of it here, instead of concentrating on what DOES disqualify him?

I don't think it is so much the polygamy itself, but it is all that swirled around it with Smith and others. The denying it, lying about, the being commanded by god to do, the taking of already married women, the young age of some, etc..


Chris <><

 

[Echad]

What is the problem with Mormonism, if any, in terms of their doctrines?

1) Mormons Teach that when a Mormons die they become a god who will rule over a planet.
When I have brought this to a Mormons attention. That Gen 3: 4-5 says.
4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

He told me that truth is truth even if Satan says it.

2) They teach that Satan and Jesus are brothers and that God rejected Satan’s plan for salvation for mankind and he rebelled and was thrown out of heaven. Where, Jesus plan was accepted.

3) Joseph Smith would consult a medium to tell him things; He would look into a peep stone [crystal ball]. Through this method of looking for truth’s of god he was led to a place where was suppose to find a plate or tabulate that told him to start the Mormon church.

I am afraid I may be making a mistake if I join it.

You are right! It would be a BIG mistake.

 

[christopher123]

3) Joseph Smith would consult a medium to tell him things; He would look into a peep stone [crystal ball]. Through this method of looking for truth’s of god he was led to a place where was suppose to find a plate or tabulate that told him to start the Mormon church.

This isn't so. You really have to be careful when you post things (surprize, not everything you read on the net or in tracts is correct), because when you post something with a half truth or something that is definately wrong such as the above, an investigator will show it to a mormon, he will show how obviously wrong it is, and then the investigator will just dismiss the correct things you have posted.

You are right! It would be a BIG mistake.

Agreed.



Chris <><

 

[Romans5:1]

Oay, why do you say their God is different?

Because he is different. First of all, the Mormon God "became" what he is, not that he always was God, as Christianity teaches. Second, what the Mormon God was prior to that has absolutely no resemblance to that taught in the Bible. First he was some nebulous "intelligence" who was for some arbitrary reason more intelligent than all the other intelligences who were floating about in some nebulous pool of intelligences. Then, when his Father and Mother (how they came into existence, as well as their ancestors, the Mormons haven't a clue) decided to have have children, he was brought forth from that pool, given a spirit body, as a spirit baby, who would grow up and be sent forth as a human being to go through "Eternal Progression" to become as his parents, a god. This means that there was a time when he sinned, and had to be redeemed, before he could attain godhood. NONE of aforementioned is even remotely close to describing what the Bible says about God the Father, who is the Creator of all things, is perfect in his aseity, and will forever be the same person that he has always been. I could go on, but hopefully you get the drift. The Mormon "God" is not the same person as that mentioned in the Bible that Christians recognize as the "only true God."

As far as ppolygamy, if that is not what disqualifies him, why do people make such a big deal of it here, instead of concentrating on what DOES disqualify him?

Because polygamy is a civil offense, even to those who are not of a religious persuasion, and Mormon history is fraught with such offenses that unless threatened with governmental force to quit practicing it, it would have brought the country to ruins. Furthermore, since the Mormon "scriptures" have not been edited to reflect a repentant attitude towards the practice, Mormonism's implicit arrogance towards those against such practice is such that the Mormons are telling everyone, "We're going to commit such perversion, eventually, whether you like it or not," and people get upset by it. Do you not understand that?

As for concentrating on what disqualifies JS as a prophet, that has been done already, whether through actually examining what he has "prophesied," or what he espoused through his belief system. It is just that some individuals are more inclined to deal with the more obvious, polygamy, than deal with the more doctrinal issues, which take a bit more thought, given the clandestine nature of how Mormons present what they believe. Whatever the case, though, Joseph Smith was not what Mormons claim that he is, whether morally or doctrinally.

 

[stinkyjoe]

And if you read in the Bible he was severly corrected by God for his actions.

And, I've never looked at David as a prophet, also, I've never seen David referred to as a prophet. He was a King of Israel. He had prophets who counseled him though.

If he was not a prophet, why do we Christians believe his writings are the word of God?

 

[fatboys]

If he was not a prophet, why do we Christians believe his writings are the word of God?

That is a very good point my friend. Thank you.

 

[Romans5:1]

If he was not a prophet, why do we Christians believe his writings are the word of God?

Just because someone is inspired of God to write for Him does not necessarily make that person a prophet. Therefore, inspiration, not prophetic office, is the key to understanding whether or not something should be believed as derived from God. And when we think of it in those terms, Joseph Smith was not an authorial instrument of God either, simply because what he did write, and elaborated on, was patently contradictory to what earlier writers, and prophets, had written or spoken in God's behalf.