Joseph Smith, Polygamy, So what?

[Zippythepinhead]

Shucks!

(Swart reaches for his Koran and a razorblade to shave his head. Now which direction is Mecca?)

Face east my friend, Face east! And don't forget your prayer rug. Mosque floors get dirty you know.

 

[Swart]

Mosque floors get dirty you know.

Actually, they don't.

 

[Romans5:1]

Are you aware that JS prophicied of the US Civil War nearly thirty years before it happened?

First, his so-called "prophecy" did not occur as he predicted. Second, anyone could "prophesize" something thirty years in advance, as Joseph Smith did, if they had enough advance warning via different media sources. To prove this, let me predict that in 30 years the United States and Europe will be involved in war with militant Islamic countries, gas prices will top $5.00 gallon, and a devasting earthquake will rock Los Angeles. Am I a prophet, or am I just someone who kinda-sorta follows the news and can make an educated guess?

Did you know he mentioned that South Carolina would lead the rebellion? Need references I can get them.

South Carolina. Big whoop. It was well known that South Carolina had long been a state that wanted to secede from the union due to the slavery issue. In fact, can you guess which state was the first to call together its delegates to secede from the Union just after the election of Abraham Lincoln? The point is, everyone knew what was inevitably going to happen long before the Civil War broke out, and just because Joseph Smith mentions the very thing he had been reading about in his work of fiction hardly makes it a "prophecy."

Conversely, there are several things that Joseph Smith included in his Civil War prophecy that did NOT come to pass. (1) War was not poured out on all nations (D&C 87:2-3). (2) If "Great Britain" played a role in the Civil War, it was nominal at best, and hardly worth mention. (3) The slaves did not rise up against their masters (v. 4). (4) There were no such entitites as the "Gentiles" to be vexed. (5) The inhabitants of the earth did not experience famine, plague, earthquakes, thunder and lightning, nor the wrath and indignation from the hand of Almighty God, nor did the "full end of all nations" occur (v. 6). The bottom line is, that despite all the touting by the Mormons that Joseph Smith predicted the Civil War with any degree of accuracy, as some type of proof that he was a "prophet," upon closer examination, the Civil War pronouncements by him only served to prove just the opposite.

 

[Romans5:1]

So what does make someone a prophet, if not inspiration? Perhaps it has something to do with Numbers 11:29?

Again, inspiration is what makes a person a prophet of God, aside from His calling. It is the very thing that Joseph Smith lacked, as evidenced in what he said and wrote.

 

[Romans5:1]

PROPHET

from Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
1 : one who utters divinely inspired revelations; specifically often capitalized : the writer of one of the prophetic books of the Old Testament
2 : one gifted with more than ordinary spiritual and moral insight; especially : an inspired poet
3 : one who foretells future events : PREDICTOR
4 : an effective or leading spokesman for a cause, doctrine, or group

from Compact Oxford English Dictionary
1 an inspired teacher or proclaimer of the will of God.
2 a person who predicts the future.
3 a person who advocates a new belief or theory.

from American Heritage Dictionary
1. A person who speaks by divine inspiration or as the interpreter through whom the will of a god is expressed.
2. A person gifted with profound moral insight and exceptional powers of expression.
3. A predictor; a soothsayer.
4. The chief spokesperson of a movement or cause.

It seems that in most of these dictionaries, predicting the future is not even the main definition of prophet. Someone who speaks by divine inspiration is the main definition.

No one said that predicting the future was the main definition of a prophet. Conversely, you are repeating what I said earlier that divine inspiration is the main definition. Divine inspiration that the Joseph Smith lacked, as once again, evidenced in what he said and wrote.

 

[Romans5:1]

So if it isn't being a prophet, but rather just being inspired to write for God, why isn't there more in the bible?

What do you think is missing that has any bearing upon man's salvific stand with God, or how to walk after redemption?

 

[Romans5:1]

Because he is different. First of all, the Mormon God "became" what he is, not that he always was God, as Christianity teaches. Second, what the Mormon God was prior to that has absolutely no resemblance to that taught in the Bible. First he was some nebulous "intelligence" who was for some arbitrary reason more intelligent than all the other intelligences who were floating about in some nebulous pool of intelligences. Then, when his Father and Mother (how they came into existence, as well as their ancestors, the Mormons haven't a clue) decided to have have children, he was brought forth from that pool, given a spirit body, as a spirit baby, who would grow up and be sent forth as a human being to go through "Eternal Progression" to become as his parents, a god. This means that there was a time when he sinned, and had to be redeemed, before he could attain godhood. NONE of aforementioned is even remotely close to describing what the Bible says about God the Father, who is the Creator of all things, is perfect in his aseity, and will forever be the same person that he has always been. I could go on, but hopefully you get the drift. The Mormon "God" is not the same person as that mentioned in the Bible that Christians recognize as the "only true God."

I noticed, stinkyjoe, that you had no comment on the above. May I ask why not? Are you concurring that what Mormons believe about God is different than what the Bible teaches?

 

[A New Dawn]

Again, inspiration is what makes a person a prophet of God, aside from His calling. It is the very thing that Joseph Smith lacked, as evidenced in what he said and wrote.

Which is only your opinion, thank goodness, because many, many, people believe otherwise.

 

[A New Dawn]

No one said that predicting the future was the main definition of a prophet. Conversely, you are repeating what I said earlier that divine inspiration is the main definition. Divine inspiration that the Joseph Smith lacked, as once again, evidenced in what he said and wrote.

I quoted what you said when I posted the definition of prophet, and this is what you said.

Just because someone is inspired of God to write for Him does not necessarily make that person a prophet.

You are contradicting yourself. Which is it?

 

[Romans5:1]

Which is only your opinion, thank goodness, because many, many, people believe otherwise.

Believe what otherwise? That inspiration of God is NOT the primary criteria for the prophet to be writing or speaking? Okay. If the inspiration of God is NOT the primary criteria for defining who is and who is not a prophet, then just what do these "many, many people" you mention, believe the defining criteria for being a prophet of God to be?

 

[Romans5:1]

I quoted what you said when I posted the definition of prophet, and this is what you said.

No, that's not what I said. Go back and read it again.

You are contradicting yourself. Which is it?

No, I'm not contradicting myself either. Again, go back and read it again.

 

[Blackmarch]

What do you think is missing that has any bearing upon man's salvific stand with God, or how to walk after redemption?

this one wasn't asking what was missing, but rather why wasn't there more put in it since the apostles, like the writings of the apostalic fathers, various popes, and inspired leaders wrote?

 

[A New Dawn]

No, that's not what I said. Go back and read it again.

Romans, I copy and pasted directly from your post. It is what you said.

Maybe you mean it isn't what you meant.

 

[stinkyjoe]

Again, inspiration is what makes a person a prophet of God, aside from His calling. It is the very thing that Joseph Smith lacked, as evidenced in what he said and wrote.

Could you be a little more specific? What evidence is there that he was not inspired?

 

[stinkyjoe]

I noticed, stinkyjoe, that you had no comment on the above. May I ask why not? Are you concurring that what Mormons believe about God is different than what the Bible teaches?

Actually I was just waiting a little to see what others would write first.

It is obvious that Mormons have different ideas about the nature of God than what I've been taught. Maybe we should start a thread to discuss that. What they believe is strange, but then again we have no idea where God came from either. The idea that He simply always existed is kind of strange to me, also. He had to come from somewhere, didn't he? I guess it's just more than my mind can fathom.

As far as the God in the Bible is concerned, he's a pretty confusing being and I'm not sure exactly what he is like. The Bible seems to contradict itself on that a little bit.

 

[A New Dawn]

Believe what otherwise? That inspiration of God is NOT the primary criteria for the prophet to be writing or speaking? Okay. If the inspiration of God is NOT the primary criteria for defining who is and who is not a prophet, then just what do these "many, many people" you mention, believe the defining criteria for being a prophet of God to be?

Trying to twist my words around isn't going to work. Everyone else knows (as do you, I'm sure), that I was responding to the part of your post where you claimed that Joseph Smith had no inspiration from God.

 

[Zippythepinhead]

First, his so-called "prophecy" did not occur as he predicted. Second, anyone could "prophesize" something thirty years in advance, as Joseph Smith did, if they had enough advance warning via different media sources. To prove this, let me predict that in 30 years the United States and Europe will be involved in war with militant Islamic countries, gas prices will top $5.00 gallon, and a devasting earthquake will rock Los Angeles. Am I a prophet, or am I just someone who kinda-sorta follows the news and can make an educated guess?



South Carolina. Big whoop. It was well known that South Carolina had long been a state that wanted to secede from the union due to the slavery issue. In fact, can you guess which state was the first to call together its delegates to secede from the Union just after the election of Abraham Lincoln? The point is, everyone knew what was inevitably going to happen long before the Civil War broke out, and just because Joseph Smith mentions the very thing he had been reading about in his work of fiction hardly makes it a "prophecy."

Conversely, there are several things that Joseph Smith included in his Civil War prophecy that did NOT come to pass. (1) War was not poured out on all nations (D&C 87:2-3). (2) If "Great Britain" played a role in the Civil War, it was nominal at best, and hardly worth mention. (3) The slaves did not rise up against their masters (v. 4). (4) There were no such entitites as the "Gentiles" to be vexed. (5) The inhabitants of the earth did not experience famine, plague, earthquakes, thunder and lightning, nor the wrath and indignation from the hand of Almighty God, nor did the "full end of all nations" occur (v. 6). The bottom line is, that despite all the touting by the Mormons that Joseph Smith predicted the Civil War with any degree of accuracy, as some type of proof that he was a "prophet," upon closer examination, the Civil War pronouncements by him only served to prove just the opposite.

Still(politely disagreeing) you failed to address the question in all those paragraphs. He did prophecy of the Civil War:

Items of instruction given by Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Ramus, Illinois, April 2, 1843.

I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the difficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.
It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.
D&C 130 12-13.

Um, ever heard of Harper's Ferry, Virginia?

Black slaves fought against their former masters in the Confederacy during the Civil War for the Union.

During Reconstruction many former slaves and free blacks assumed political power held by their former masters, though this was soon lost after Reconstruction.

Wars fought since the Civil War:
Spanish American War
WWI
WWII
Korea
Vietnam
Gulf War
Iraq War
Afghan War(War on Terror)

Other wars of note:
Balkans War
Falkland's War
Boer War
Russian Revolution 1917
Cuban Revolution 1959
Rawandan Genocide
Sudan Persecution
The Killing Fields of Cambodia

Not to mention ideological wars:
Cold War
China vs Taiwan.

Um..... I rest my case.

 

[Romans5:1]

Actually I was just waiting a little to see what others would write first.

It is obvious that Mormons have different ideas about the nature of God than what I've been taught. Maybe we should start a thread to discuss that. What they believe is strange, but then again we have no idea where God came from either. The idea that He simply always existed is kind of strange to me, also. He had to come from somewhere, didn't he? I guess it's just more than my mind can fathom.

Let me say that efforts have been made to try and get the Mormons to discuss the person of God, but very little comes forth from them, apart from many vagaries and generalities that are simple repeats of something written or said by their favorite Mormon writer. When presented with blatantly contradictory material showing just how different the Mormon God is from the one of biblical revelation, the typical response either agnostic in nature, or a further false conclusion is drawn by assuming that what is quoted is somehow misunderstood, and that everyone is still speaking about the same God.

As for assuming that God had to "come from somewhere," it would be better to simply conclude as you did by thinking upon God as something beyond human understanding in that respect. For as soon as you start picturing God in human terms, then you'll end up with a view of God much as Mormonism has assumed him to be, which is nothing more than an idol.

As far as the God in the Bible is concerned, he's a pretty confusing being and I'm not sure exactly what he is like. The Bible seems to contradict itself on that a little bit.

What are you referring to which leads you to conclude that the Bible is contradictory on the person of God?

 

[Romans5:1]

Trying to twist my words around isn't going to work. Everyone else knows (as do you, I'm sure), that I was responding to the part of your post where you claimed that Joseph Smith had no inspiration from God.

I'm not twisting anything. Joseph Smith was not inspired of God, therefore he was not a prophet of God either. His record of written and spoken statements prove that. Therefore, what does what you've stated contribute to counter that fact?

 

[Romans5:1]

Still(politely disagreeing) you failed to address the question in all those paragraphs. He did prophecy of the Civil War:

What questions are you talking about? Furthermore, as already stated, what he "prophesied" was nothing more than what any non-prophet could have done, and he was about as accurate, meaning, he was not.