Joseph Prince?
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Andrea411
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I only watch him once in awhile. But was Jesus NOT punished for our transgressions?
I'm not sure of Prince's wording on that. It would be the most common understanding of the 'work' of the cross that Christ was bruised for our iniquities, he bore our sorrows.... sorry I just don't see where Prince was wrong and if he is, then it is not an uncommon doctrine or something totally off the wall. We will all disagree... or so it seems. Again, with most of these TV evangelist I hold them to a lower standard then I would a theologian bc I don't think they are more then their congregation. They do teach and should know what they are teaching but the scriptures are something the entire body of Christ has been debating for 2000 years. Apparently someone is wrong??
Truly, my concern with TV evangelists is their celebrity status, the followers of a celebrity not Jesus. This happens within denominations also... following a church and not loving the Church as His body but more as their own fellowship. That is nice but that is not Christ.
The lure of celebrity and the fall of those that follow them, although in the past... i.e.: Jimmy Swaggart, Bakkers etc etc. I felt that was quite a wake up call for the (organized) church, that they should not have their eyes on man but on Christ. How that effected the unbelievers at that time, IDK. I do know it gave me many opportunities to share Christ as people wanted to gossip about the TV celebrities. Opportunities I had otherwise not had... so Christ is still in control even when it may look otherwise to us or at least to me.
God bless, andrea
sorry if I went off on a rabbit trail... happens
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Norah63
Newbie
Guess I dont understand the problem, grace is very extreme, awesome, matchless, and , beautiful! Thats a good thing! Not a put down. It works when we fail. And I dont mean sinning as a way of life, every honest christian knows that. But it shows us what we have available in Jesus. How to overcome the works of darkness, doubt and fear.
Joseph Prince tries his best to preach it and yes he probably falls short as he is just a man. I didnt believe all the pre Adam stuff he taught but whatever, eat the hay, spit out the sticks.
christians dont follow men, we listen, hopefully get encouraged, and serve our Lord Jesus.
And I enjoyed the rabbit trail.
Joseph Prince tries his best to preach it and yes he probably falls short as he is just a man. I didnt believe all the pre Adam stuff he taught but whatever, eat the hay, spit out the sticks.
christians dont follow men, we listen, hopefully get encouraged, and serve our Lord Jesus.
And I enjoyed the rabbit trail.
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Andrea411
Guest
Guess I dont understand the problem, grace is very extreme, awesome, matchless, and , beautiful! Thats a good thing! Not a put down. It works when we fail. And I dont mean sinning as a way of life, every honest christian knows that. But it shows us what we have available in Jesus. How to overcome the works of darkness, doubt and fear.
Joseph Prince tries his best to preach it and yes he probably falls short as he is just a man. I didnt believe all the pre Adam stuff he taught but whatever, eat the hay, spit out the sticks.
christians dont follow men, we listen, hopefully get encouraged, and serve our Lord Jesus.
And I enjoyed the rabbit trail.
amen and thanks for the eat the hay and spit out the sticks.... made me laugh. I've always heard eat the meat and spit out the bones... but here on a farm the hay made sense, even the goats know to eat the hay and not the sticks...
God bless, andrea
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No doubt our theologies have errors but some won't produce as many problems as others.
I'm concerned when the teaching is repentance after salvation isn't necessary. I know it was a different dispensation but when Adam and Eve sinned, they were still Yahweh's children but they were in a different spiritual position. Of course Yeshua's sacrifice was/is for all our sins. Repentance for believers is in Scripture such as The Lord's Prayer, before we take communion and Rev 3 includes "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; ...v19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
It really puzzles me why a believer would have a problem repenting?
I'm concerned when the teaching is repentance after salvation isn't necessary. I know it was a different dispensation but when Adam and Eve sinned, they were still Yahweh's children but they were in a different spiritual position. Of course Yeshua's sacrifice was/is for all our sins. Repentance for believers is in Scripture such as The Lord's Prayer, before we take communion and Rev 3 includes "And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; ...v19 "As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent."
It really puzzles me why a believer would have a problem repenting?
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ABlessedAnomaly
Teacher of the Word
Agreed. I do want to point out, as a believer in OSAS, that many think that OSASers don't teach repentance after salvation. But we do, for scripture teaches it. But the purpose for it between the OSAS and the lost salvation crowds is the latter believe it to be repentance to reaquire salvation, and the OSAS people believe it to be to get back in the perfect will of God.
Christians wander out of God's will occasionally. Ok, often. We leave His protection and find ourselves walking in cursed land. Here we can get sickness, disease, poverty, lack, loneliness. If we repent we will once again be safe in God's protection and blessing. Turning around toward the blessing is what repentance is. It is turning around.
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I agree with what you're saying.
To me, repenting doesn't mean we lack His grace. It's the opposite, I'm repenting because of His grace and mercy.
To me, repenting doesn't mean we lack His grace. It's the opposite, I'm repenting because of His grace and mercy.
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Norah63
Newbie
Usually when someone has a worry over repentance, its not their own weakness they are concerned about as much as someone elses. Lets get honest about that.
We see another christian that is doing something we consider wrong, we think, why dont they quit, how can I fix them. And if it is a close bro. Or sis, you can go to them alone as scripture reads. Then follow that path.
Many times the ones we are concerned about are flying a false flag, not caring about Jesus at all. This reflects on us because the unsaved say, look at that christian how they are living... Choose not to be offended.
Yes it is sad to get lumped in with those who sin willfully, but take heart dear ones,
thats not our burden, it is just an accusation. Shake it off, love on Jesus and let Him handle the issues of others.
We report of the wonderful things Jesus has done for us and let the world listen in.
We see another christian that is doing something we consider wrong, we think, why dont they quit, how can I fix them. And if it is a close bro. Or sis, you can go to them alone as scripture reads. Then follow that path.
Many times the ones we are concerned about are flying a false flag, not caring about Jesus at all. This reflects on us because the unsaved say, look at that christian how they are living... Choose not to be offended.
Yes it is sad to get lumped in with those who sin willfully, but take heart dear ones,
thats not our burden, it is just an accusation. Shake it off, love on Jesus and let Him handle the issues of others.
We report of the wonderful things Jesus has done for us and let the world listen in.
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So, the Blood of Jesus has automatically been applied to all future sins I may commit?
If I were an impressionable young Christian who got my learning from TV poachers, I'd be inclined to think I could keep smoking crack, beating up little old ladies, kickin cats, and back talkin my momma... in purpose!
If Mr Prince knew a little more about the Bible, he would know that it very, very clearly teaches that God is not mocked that WHATSOEVER (whether you be saved or not... this was in fact written to Christians!) you sow is what you are going to reap.
He should be saying Jesus purchased forgiveness for our sin, but after we get saved and the Lord reveals to us that we have sinned (and He does reveal to us when we miss it) we would draw close unto the Lord and confess out sin while receiving the cleansing of the Blood so we can continue walking with Him.
Mr Prince and other extreme grace teachers frame it as though after you get saved, it is not possible to ever walk in the flesh (live in sin) and it's not right before God to ever even acknowledge that we have missed it in spite of the Word saying if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and His Word is not in us.
This is how I know personally that this is a trick of the devil is because the way extreme grace teachers frame this results in tricking Christians out of engaging Jesus in His present day ministry of cleansing us when we bring our sin to Him. He desires to cleanse us and numerous account of Jesus telling Christians to repent in Revelation shows this is the Lord's view on this.
This means, those that refuse to acknowledge when they sin are rejecting the correction of the Lord and are rejecting His cleansing which can only be obtained if we do not attempt to hide out sin from Him and instead come to Him.
satan is having a field day with this teaching because it keeps the door open in people's lives so he can have access to deceive them with the flesh and it has obviously resulted in many growing cold in their relationship with the Lord because they believe seedtime and harvest apparently has been suspended once they got saved.
The Word of God is very clear that we are responsible for what we sow and God has given us the High Priestly ministry of Jesus Christ so that we can come to Him... but satan has a stroke of genius in tricking people to refuse to come to the Lord when they miss it... at their own peril.
Exactly. If you listen closely to the extreme grace teachers... if you repent and ask for / receive forgiveness as per 1 John 1:9... you are "under the law"
If I were an impressionable young Christian who got my learning from TV poachers, I'd be inclined to think I could keep smoking crack, beating up little old ladies, kickin cats, and back talkin my momma... in purpose!
If Mr Prince knew a little more about the Bible, he would know that it very, very clearly teaches that God is not mocked that WHATSOEVER (whether you be saved or not... this was in fact written to Christians!) you sow is what you are going to reap.
He should be saying Jesus purchased forgiveness for our sin, but after we get saved and the Lord reveals to us that we have sinned (and He does reveal to us when we miss it) we would draw close unto the Lord and confess out sin while receiving the cleansing of the Blood so we can continue walking with Him.
Mr Prince and other extreme grace teachers frame it as though after you get saved, it is not possible to ever walk in the flesh (live in sin) and it's not right before God to ever even acknowledge that we have missed it in spite of the Word saying if we say we have no sin we deceive ourselves and His Word is not in us.
This is how I know personally that this is a trick of the devil is because the way extreme grace teachers frame this results in tricking Christians out of engaging Jesus in His present day ministry of cleansing us when we bring our sin to Him. He desires to cleanse us and numerous account of Jesus telling Christians to repent in Revelation shows this is the Lord's view on this.
This means, those that refuse to acknowledge when they sin are rejecting the correction of the Lord and are rejecting His cleansing which can only be obtained if we do not attempt to hide out sin from Him and instead come to Him.
satan is having a field day with this teaching because it keeps the door open in people's lives so he can have access to deceive them with the flesh and it has obviously resulted in many growing cold in their relationship with the Lord because they believe seedtime and harvest apparently has been suspended once they got saved.
The Word of God is very clear that we are responsible for what we sow and God has given us the High Priestly ministry of Jesus Christ so that we can come to Him... but satan has a stroke of genius in tricking people to refuse to come to the Lord when they miss it... at their own peril.
Exactly. If you listen closely to the extreme grace teachers... if you repent and ask for / receive forgiveness as per 1 John 1:9... you are "under the law"
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Willie T
St. Petersburg Vineyard
Jesus accepted the established and existing consequences of our sins... and God rescued Him from that death.
To say that God poured out Wrath upon Him, is equivalent to saying that God killed a child when they were hit by a car. That just is no more true than thinking that God punished Jesus, rather than seeing that He rescued Him from sin's punishment.
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God IS just and fair... we have sinned... if God didn't put the punishment of that sin upon Jesus as our substitute... then He's going to have to put it on us, of acknowledge that He is not just and fair because we deserve to be separated from God in every way because we all have sinned.
Other folk can do what they want... but, I'm going to go ahead and accept the Substitute God has provided and I will walk free from the consequences from sin.
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Willie T
St. Petersburg Vineyard
God IS just and fair... we have sinned... if God didn't put the punishment of that sin upon Jesus as our substitute... then He's going to have to put it on us, of acknowledge that He is not just and fair because we deserve to be separated from God in every way because we all have sinned.
Other folk can do what they want... but, I'm going to go ahead and accept the Substitute God has provided and I will walk free from the consequences from sin.
May I show you where you even have the punishment for sin wrong? It's really plain.
Sin is what? Would you agree it is breaking one of God's laws?
(I'll wait until you give me a "Yes" or a "No" on that..................................)
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Andrea411
Guest
Ok... correct me where I am wrong but my understanding is that Jesus (God) went to the cross and received our punishment... totally undeserved. That was the point. He was the only perfect lamb that was able to be received as the sacrifice for our sins, once and for all??
Am I missing something?
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You are not missing anything... sin is any and all things that are in opposition to God's ways of being and doing right. In the Book of James, the Lord teaches us that faith without action is not faith the God accepts... yet preachers all over say it's faith alone which is what brings you to the dance, true... but God expects us to actually walk with Him since this is the purpose for our existence and that is the essence of walking in the Spirit is to live IN HIM. The only way to accomplish that is by turning away from this world because we cannot serve God and love this world at the same time... yet there are so many worldly Christians following extreme grace teachers so they can experience quality ear ticklin!
Romans 8:3,4
For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Galatians 5:18
But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
To be led of the Spirit is to take God's Word seriously which means if we are not being led by the Spirit... we are under the law.
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Who is offended at false grace teachings?
These people have access to God's Word and I know the Holy Ghost has warned them, so if they don't figure out they are being deceived that's their problem... and it is going to be a problem!
5 or the 7 churches Jesus spoke to in Revelation... He obviously could see their sin after they had gotten saved and He warned them to REPENT!
Of course, false grace teachers just throw that out and say Jesus is talkin to some other cats and not us... anything that doesn't fit in their doctrine they explain away, even some of the teachings of Jesus Himself
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Willie T
St. Petersburg Vineyard
Since the answer to what sinning is may not be clear to some.... I'll state it.
"Yes" committing a sin certainly IS breaking one of God's laws. And it demands payment. But here is where so many of us miss the boat.....
What is the payment for committing one of those "sins". (The "punishment"?)
Well, we are fortunate in that the Bible clearly spells that out. And the Biblically required punishment is different for each sin. Sometimes we just have to pay some money. Sometimes it is stricter. But, NEVER, is the Biblically required payment for a specific sin ever more severe than simply physical death. "No", even though some of us will come right out and stubbornly declare that is a lie... you can easily open your own Bible, and look it up for yourself.
The maximum punishment for committing a sin (breaking God's law) is nothing more than PHYSICAL death. It is not SPIRITUAL death. It is NOT separation from God in a burning lake of fire.
And that is what Jesus paid for. He DID NOT pay for our overall state of sin... the unbelief in Him. That still hangs over an unbeliever's head.
What Jesus paid for was the ever-lasting death in the grave of believers. He did not remain dead in the grave (He NEVER Spiritually died, nor was He ever, for a moment, separated from God... "No", not even at that point of His "QUESTION "on the cross that you are just itching to point out.), and neither will believers.
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That is exactly what false grace teaches... that once we are saved, what we sow is not what we are going to reap if we sow to the flesh (Galatians 6:7,8), and who needs to actually walk with God cause after all... we are saved no matter what we do!
Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
When God says if someone lives after the flesh they shall die... that means they will not be spending eternity with the Father. God's definition of death is being carnally minded
Romans 8:8
So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Romans 8:6
For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
Romans 8:1
There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
As pointed out in Romans 8... there IS in fact condemnation if one walks after the flesh and not after the Spirit.
No wonder the modern church is so weak and ineffective... most Christians live just like those who don't know Jesus
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