John's Revelation

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AdB

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I've always had a bit of the position that we can never clearly know what the Book of Revelation it is about until that time has arrived, kinda like the Ethiopian didn't have a clue what Isaiah was talking about, but when Philip explained about Jesus it all fell in place.
But a friend of me challenged me regarding post tribulation rapture so I just started putting different texts from Revelation and other books next to each other in an Excel sheet relative to each other and from that, to my surprise a quite clear timeline came forward. I took the approach of trying to "understand" what the revelations were talking about as they were revealed bit by bit. I've described this in a Word doc (attached), who would like to have a critical look at this? Am I making faulty conclusions? Am I missing out on crucial Bible texts?
 

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sandman

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Very nice job on that ...
There is something I believe you are neglecting...which will not negate what you have done ....It is something that can be slipped right in. I just need to get my butt in gear and complete it.
My schedule is so tight right now I am getting 3-4 hours sleep a night...but like I always tell people "you only have time what you make time for". I will give you a heads up when I finish....
 
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Dee-Nabi

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I really admire how much you are earnestly wanting to understand this book, but it's really important to be careful about interpreting Revelation, whether we're theologians or not. Just because an interpretation is "commonly accepted" doesn't mean it is inherently accurate.

Rv 22:18-19 is one of the clearer verses in the book that warns us that if someone adds to or subtracts from this book (Revelation), they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

It's good to read and be curious about it, but when it comes to understanding it, we can't just understand by thinking really hard on our own.
Similar to the Ethiopian, we should be able to say we don't understand if we don't understand and welcome Philip who can prove why he knows, clearly. But the reason why Philip understood isn't
because he studied really hard or learned from someone who received a certification. He knew what Isaiah was talking about because Jesus was the one who was able to prove himself as the fulfillment of the prophecy. Philip was one of the people who saw this, and spoke of what he saw, not what he thought or imagined. When it comes to prophecy in the Bible, we can't just understand until we see it or hear from someone who saw it and can explain clearly why it matches. And because this is God's word, only God allows that person to understand what they saw as well.

I do like your attitude to check if anything is missing though.

For example, someone who understands Revelation clearly should be able to tell us which wars, famines, and earthquakes Jesus warns about regarding his second coming in Matthew 24. Would it be literal? If so, which ones? How can we tell? If not literal, what would these mean? Can they verify with scripture? Even in Acts, one of the most noble groups of people who received the testimony of Jesus verified the testimony with scripture (the Berean Jews of Acts 17), with eagerness (rather than just judging, but confirming that they could understand clearly with scripture what they learned)

For the two beasts, are these literal? How would the ten horns be distributed between the seven heads? When talking about the seven heads too, they should fit the descriptions fully in Revelation 17 as well, which describes them as kings and hills and various other qualities of how they came about and even how the horns are described.
Are the letters sent to the literal 7 churches (does that make sense if Apostle John was actually a head pastor of one of these churches himself?) or does this mean something else? Why are the seven stars considered a mystery in Revelation 1 as well? Will we see floating bowls when Revelation fulfills, or does this have another meaning that we can confirm through the Bible?

I'm not trying to poke, and I'm not judging you~ I wish more of us were curious about this book of prophecy that remains for us like you are. But we should be shrewd as well as seeking, so that we don't add by accepting various interpretations, but also don't subtract by denying when the truth is able to be shown.
 
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I really admire how much you are earnestly wanting to understand this book, but it's really important to be careful about interpreting Revelation, whether we're theologians or not. Just because an interpretation is "commonly accepted" doesn't mean it is inherently accurate.

Rv 22:18-19 is one of the clearer verses in the book that warns us that if someone adds to or subtracts from this book (Revelation), they cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven.
That's talking about someone purposely and deviously adding to or subtracting from the book to make it say what they want it to say. It's not talking about someone misinterpreting it. If it was talking about someone misinterpreting the book then most, if not all, of us would be doomed.

Welcome to the forum, by the way. It looks like you must be new here.
 
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AdB

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I really admire how much you are earnestly wanting to understand this book, but it's really important to be careful about interpreting Revelation
I fully agree with you and this has always been my position as I stated in the initial post, basically still is my position, but like said a friend challenged me and God kinda laid this on my heart, it was actually a bit of a shock to myself that such clear timeline came out of my effort.
I do not take this as "truth", just an interpretation.
I do think that we are called to seek out what could be the events that Revelation is talking about, for example what comes out of the timeline as I found it is that when we would see anything happening that resembles the Seven Year Covenant, and we also see that the Temple is actually going to be rebuild, then we know that we'll have 3,5 years before prosecution will break lose. We can tell people what will be happening. If indeed after 3,5 years the antichrist will then seat himself in the Temple, then we are prepared for what's coming, as Jesus told us to be. Also, when we can foretell clearly of things that will be happening this will be something that a lot of people will take at heart and might make them turn to Christ for salvation.
 
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AdB

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But also I really want to know what made you curious about Revelation instead of afraid of it, like I find a lot of people tend to be? :D
I personally always tended to be pre-trib, mostly because I am convinced that God will not pour out His Wrath on the believers, at least not the believers who are converted before it all starts (1Thess 1:10, 1Thess 5:9, Rom 5:9 and Luke 21:35-36). So I wasn't even that worried about what would happen how and when, and I still have confidence we will be save in God, yes even if we would be prosecuted and killed. So I've never been "afraid" of the things written in Revelation. It was simply because this friend (who has somewhat mid trib / post trib ideas) challenged me that I took it up to do this review on Revelations.
 
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That's talking about someone purposely and deviously adding to or subtracting from the book to make it say what they want it to say. It's not talking about someone misinterpreting it. If it was talking about someone misinterpreting the book then most, if not all, of us would be doomed.

Welcome to the forum, by the way. It looks like you must be new here.
You are 100% correct, and yes I'm new here. Initially to seek feedback on this Revelation review I did. I know that things may look so nice and organized in one's own eyes until someone else points out some obvious flaw... If that will happens this whole thing will be scrapped o_O
 
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keras

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someone else points out some obvious flaw... If that will happens this whole thing will be scrapped o_O
Your fundamental error, is the 'rapture to heaven' of the Church.
Never prophesied and Jesus said it was impossible. John 3:13, +

You also make the mistake of placing the Sixth Seal out of sequence, as Written. To do that is 'adding to Revelation'.
The Lords terrible Day of vengeance and fiery wrath is the next prophesied event we can expect.
Proved by how Jesus stopped his quote of Isaiah 61:1-2, just before; and a day of the vengeance of our God.
 
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Jesus said it was impossible.
I don't think John 3:13 is talking about the rapture, the context is about believing what came from God and that until that time no one ascended into heaven, but only the Son decended...
And how did I put the 6th seal out of sequence?
 
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Douggg

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I've always had a bit of the position that we can never clearly know what the Book of Revelation it is about until that time has arrived, kinda like the Ethiopian didn't have a clue what Isaiah was talking about, but when Philip explained about Jesus it all fell in place.
But a friend of me challenged me regarding post tribulation rapture so I just started putting different texts from Revelation and other books next to each other in an Excel sheet relative to each other and from that, to my surprise a quite clear timeline came forward. I took the approach of trying to "understand" what the revelations were talking about as they were revealed bit by bit. I've described this in a Word doc (attached), who would like to have a critical look at this? Am I making faulty conclusions? Am I missing out on crucial Bible texts?
AdB, you have a collection of charts in your pdf.

In engineering project planning there is a thing called the critical path. It is a method for creating a timeline in order for a project to be accomplished by a stated deadline. It takes all of the elements of the project and arranges them in an order of what has to be done before the next thing is done. Similarly, the same approach is used in creating a timeline of end times events.

Here is a chart I made, which the red line is the critical path. Try making a chart of your own using the critical path method, as the backbone to your chart. The block method you used is not suitable. For one thing 3.5 years, 3 1/2 years, as in your chart(s) is not a term found in the bible.



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Douggg

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You are 100% correct, and yes I'm new here. Initially to seek feedback on this Revelation review I did. I know that things may look so nice and organized in one's own eyes until someone else points out some obvious flaw... If that will happens this whole thing will be scrapped o_O
Everyone starts from zero. You are in the process of evolving your chart(s); the whole thing doesn't need to be scrapped. If you look at my charts, it will speed that process up.

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keras

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I don't think John 3:13 is talking about the rapture, the context is about believing what came from God and that until that time no one ascended into heaven, but only the Son decended...
And how did I put the 6th seal out of sequence?
Jesus is quite specific; No one goes to heaven....
Confirmed by: John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10

The Sixth Seal; Revelation 6:12-17, is years before Revelation 19:11, when Jesus Returns.
Proved by all the events of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
 
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AdB

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If you look at my charts, it will speed that process up.
No offence, but I don't find our charts very clear, takes a really good look to understand where you're going... Anyways, my charts were not meant to be "stand alone" clarifying themselves, they are meant to support the text in the document, just to give a little visualization of what is written.

What I do miss in your charts is the reasoning for how you come to these charts, do you have any supportive texts for that?

Regarding "3,5" years not literally in the Bible, that is correct, so is "Millennium" and "Rapture", these are just common phrases that I used in the text, again, the charts are only to support the text...
 
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Jesus is quite specific; No one goes to heaven....
Confirmed by: John 7:34, John 8:21-23, John 17:15, Revelation 5:10
In both John 7:34 and John 8:21-23 Jesus is talking to the Pharisees, it is those who will not be able to "come where Jesus will be" because "you will die in your sin".

In John 17:15 Jesus is saying that the believers need to stay in the world to spread the Gospel, even in the face of hardship, but this is just a temporarily situation because a few lines further (John 17:24) Jesus is literally saying the end goal is for them to be in Heaven with Him "Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.", Jesus was not talking about being in the world where He was when He uttered that prayer because at that time He was not yet "seen in His glory"...

Rev 5:10 is a bit ambiguous, it could be talking about the born again Christians "reign" in the world because of their God given authority (to preach, heal, perform miracles, etc) or it could be specifically about Rev 20:4-6 (although I don't think this would be logical in this context) or it could be regarding the NEW earth. But in any case it doesn't state that there will not be a Rapture...

The Sixth Seal; Revelation 6:12-17, is years before Revelation 19:11, when Jesus Returns.
Proved by all the events of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls.
The events of the Trumpets / Bowls do not require that much time, even in my timeline there would easily be 3 years left for all this to happen, depending on how long the Great Tribulation will last.
 
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Everyone starts from zero. You are in the process of evolving your chart(s); the whole thing doesn't need to be scrapped.
If there would be conflicts with other Biblical passages that I can't harmonize in good faith with my timeline, then it will be my timelines that will be scrapped...
 
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Douggg

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No offence, but I don't find our charts very clear, takes a really good look to understand where you're going... Anyways, my charts were not meant to be "stand alone" clarifying themselves, they are meant to support the text in the document, just to give a little visualization of what is written.
I agree that no chart is stand alone. The rationale that goes into making a chart has to be expressed in words.

On the other hand, words themselves regarding a complex subject like the end times events, requires that a person reading those make a mental timeline chart, which the interpretations and understandings people have don't show conflicts in their thinking until they attempt to place those on a timeline chart.

On my critical path chart, I annotated below each event the supporting scriptural passage. It doesn't replace a narrative to others, I agree.

I glanced through your pdf, and I can see you have many misconceptions and understandings. Those cannot be explained in a few posts. I have over 21,000 posts at this particular eschatology forum, trying to get people to understand certain issues and concepts... which all of those end up being validated in rationale by being placed on a timeline chart of events of the end times.
 
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I've always had a bit of the position that we can never clearly know what the Book of Revelation it is about until that time has arrived, kinda like the Ethiopian didn't have a clue what Isaiah was talking about, but when Philip explained about Jesus it all fell in place.
But a friend of me challenged me regarding post tribulation rapture so I just started putting different texts from Revelation and other books next to each other in an Excel sheet relative to each other and from that, to my surprise a quite clear timeline came forward. I took the approach of trying to "understand" what the revelations were talking about as they were revealed bit by bit. I've described this in a Word doc (attached), who would like to have a critical look at this? Am I making faulty conclusions? Am I missing out on crucial Bible texts?

Dear AdB,
Why do you believe the time for the book of Revelation has not arrived?

The book clearly says the seals are already open and the time is at hand AND that was nearly 2000 years ago!

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

Rev 22:7 Behold, I COME QUICKLY: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.

Rev 22:10 And he saith unto me, SEAL NOT the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for THE TIME IS AT HAND.

If the time for the book of Revelation is still future, how can anyone, especially those who lived and died over the past 2000 years, ever hope to KEEP THE SAYINGS OF THE PROPHECY?

Was Christ mistaken when He said "I come quickly"? Two thousand years is not quickly.

The truth is the prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st century A.D. and have continued to be fulfilled over and over again since that time. For Christ's Elect of this age, Christ has already come or is presently coming or will come in the future.

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

Christ's second coming to His Elect will continue until the last chosen person is saved and this age comes to an end.

The book of Revelation is not teaching about outward coming world events. The book is teaching on the pathway to salvation. Those events are spiritual, meaning that they happen "within" a single person. Until a reader can "see" spiritually, the book of Revelation will remain a mystery. We must "keep the sayings" of the book or salvation will pass us by.

Joe


 
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I glanced through your pdf, and I can see you have many misconceptions and understandings.
Would be great if you could at least list where you think I'm in err, I'm not going to read 21000 posts. o_O
I do need to figure out how Dan 8:11-14 and Dan 12:11-12 fit into my timeline...
 
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